|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
don Juan
#5625288 - 05/13/06 05:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Here is some interesting info. The information has surfaced recently that in the course of writing his books that Carlos Castaneda consulted as many as 11 shaman. The one that influenced his views the most was a Yaqui Shaman from Sonora Mexico His name is Grandfather Tezlcazi Guitimea Cachora. Castaneda reportedly studied with him for 3 to 4 years. Yaqui shamanism is the source for most of the techniques and ideas promoted in his books. Of course his books were fictionalized accounts of his apprenticeship mixed with symbolic references designed to convey a teaching. I attached a picture of this guy, who is actually still alive and nearly 90 years old.
"Grandfather Tezlcazi Guitimea Cachora, alias Don Juan, has been written about extensively since the early sixties. Carlos Castaneda wrote about his experiences with grandfather and also his interpretations of Cachoras knowledge. Through his numerous books, Castaneda helped introduce people from all over the world to the ancient Yaqui ways."

Here are some links about this guy. http://www.jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=549 http://www.wisdomtraditions.com/yaqui.html
This info was uncovered by www.sustainedaction.org an effort to debunk Castaneda, but this appears to give him credibility. It is the view of Sustained Action that if one small detail is false then it is all false. It is funny that no other spiritual text is held to this standard. If so, all of the worlds religions would have been debunked years ago.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
Very interesting indeed. So then what do you think? Has Carlos used these teachings as a stepping stone for creating his own ideas on the nature of reality and the path to freedom, or did all of his ideas come from the Toltec seers and maybe some eastern religion thrown in?
Carlos's ideas seem to be vastly more developed than Cachoras. Cachoras ideas for the most part seem quite tame and more like the modern traditional Indian spiritual teachings. Do you think he might have been holding back some information in his interviews?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
|
"Very interesting indeed. So then what do you think? Has Carlos used these teachings as a stepping stone for creating his own ideas on the nature of reality and the path to freedom, or did all of his ideas come from the Toltec seers and maybe some eastern religion thrown in?" No I do not. I think it is mostly traditional lore.
"Carlos's ideas seem to be vastly more developed than Cachoras. Cachoras ideas for the most part seem quite tame and more like the modern traditional Indian spiritual teachings. Do you think he might have been holding back some information in his interviews?" In a short interview you will not get 4 years of knowledge. Cachora said in a lecture (check the other link) that stalking and dreaming are Yaqui practices. I know from my own research into shamanism that most of Carlos's ideas are common among traditional cultures of southern Mexico and Guatamala like the Mazatec and the Maya.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
Are you saying that his discription of tonal and nagual from Tales of Power are traditional toltec?
What about the new toltec seers? Do you think the things he discribes are practiced by groups of warrior/seers today?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
|
I posted a book on Naugaiism last week on this site which I have sent to you as well. It discusses Tonal and Naugal. They are traditional ideas. http://library.case.edu/ksl/ecoll/books/brinag00/brinag00.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagualism I have seen reference to these ideas by different names in traditional literature before as well. Mr. Cachora had never heard of the idea of the warrior group of 8 sorcerers...and neither have I outside of Castaneda.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
Don Juan seemed to describe them differently than the traditional ideas. At least that's my take from Tales of Power. I'll have to look at it again.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
|
A complete survey of the practices of the Indians of Southern Mexico may help. I have done this to my own satisfaction in learning about world traditions of shamanism. The nagualism book discusses the terms, but misinterprets many of the ideas due to cultural bias. Note: Castaneda's descriptions are interpretations that are very specific. Such descriptions can not be picked up by scanning over traditional literature, but one sees references to them. To truly verify or discount this work would require a multiyear apprenticeship in such a tradtion.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
What about the new toltec seers? Do you think the things he discribes are practiced by groups of warrior/seers today?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
|
Mr. Cachora had never heard of the idea of the warrior group of 8 sorcerers...and neither have I outside of Castaneda. So, who really knows how deep the rabbit hole goes...or not.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
I have a hard time finding anyone interested (really) much less the good (huge understatement) luck of finding a benefactor.
Hey Sporetacus!, chime in here, I know you want to.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
|
The notion of the sorcerers group has no relevance to modern humans....if it was ever a custom....but I have found spiritual truth in in many ancient Toltec techniques as I know you have, but I am not getting together with a group of dorks to play "don Juan sorcerers group"....it would be like being a trekkie.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
Not sure I agree here. I'm not talking about wannabes. I'm talking about people working together on the same ideas who are serious and dedicated.
I have a friend here and we have been doing that successfully for about 4 years now, and I have another friend who is fairly serious. But I had to wait for 20+ years to find them. Which could have meant that I just wasn't ready yet.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
|
"Not sure I agree here. I'm not talking about wannabes. I'm talking about people working together on the same ideas who are serious and dedicated."
I do agree that working with a group of interested people on a spiritual goal can help....but the idea of trying to "copy" Castaneda would leave me unenthused. Having a support group or a club dedicated to this work would be interesting and a way to converse with spiritually minded people. It would be important to not maintain a cult like organization with a "great leader". In any case I call nagual first!
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
I wouldn't want to copy anybody although to be perfectly honest the group Castaneda discribes and the life he led with them sounds about as good as it gets. But most likely it was fiction.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
|
The forward to the first book: "This book is both allegory and ethnography" It is pretty plain in noting this. I feel that these books are a coyote teaching.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
|
In any case we will be don Huehuecoyotl and don Icelander. We will "walk the Earth" and have adventures in which we use immpeccable martial arts skills to help the down trodden. Sounds like it would make a great TV series...
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
don Icelander? I don't think so.
Besides I wouldn't know how to help the downtrodden. They don't want help really, now do they. 
I do have adventures with Veritas. But we'll save that for a different thread.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
|
|
Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said: I posted a book on Naugaiism last week on this site which I have sent to you as well. It discusses Tonal and Naugal. They are traditional ideas.
There are some parts in the reading that go hand in hand with CC's books. The terms used, such as Seers, nagual, assignment of an animal to a seer to be the nagual, et cetera. However, the references for the study are mostly from the 16th century monks, and are filled with associations with the devil.
I wonder if that's what Don Juan means by the discernment of old seers and new seers. In The Fire From Within he talks about how he's not a sorceror, but a warrior that sees. Don Juan doesn't mention the devil, but I wonder if he's alluding his association to the old seers?
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: don Juan [Re: Fospher]
#5625830 - 05/13/06 07:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
It seems to me that the old seers were concerned with power and control and the new with freedom and awareness.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: It seems to me that the old seers were concerned with power and control and the new with freedom and awareness.
Don Juan describes that the seers held too much self-importance, which led them to their doom, while the new overcame that with ego loss.
But that's not what I'm talking about. Read the reading passage that Huehuecoytl posted on Nagualism. It constantly talks about the devil taking advantage of the natives and appearing to them in different animal forms, the sorcerors or naualli sucking the blood of children at night, and other necromancy-type acts. Maybe that is true that the old seers were accomplices of the devil, and hence they perished while the new seers saw their folly and denied their old tradition, creating a new theology.
" But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
Revelation 21:8
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: don Juan [Re: Fospher]
#5625935 - 05/13/06 07:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
The Devil misconception was brought in from Christianity and has nothing to do with Sorcery IMO. That kind of black and white thinking belongs to Christianity. Don Juan had relationships with the old style toltec seers in the likes of la catalina and such. It was a difference in philosophy and goals and not good vs evil.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Sporetacus
Swashbuckler

Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 152
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
|
|
Interesting stuff.
I think I could take him in the arena though.
-------------------- I'm Sporetacus!
|
Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
|
|
I don't think Don Juan condemned anything as evil or good, but that doesn't mean he didnt consider associations with the devil in those terms, either.
|
Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
|
|
Only one way to find out.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
Quote:
Sporetacus said: Interesting stuff.
I think I could take him in the arena though.
From what I hear of him I think I'm gonna have to bet on him. He should be able to run until you get tired.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: don Juan [Re: Fospher]
#5626054 - 05/13/06 08:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Fospher said: I don't think Don Juan condemned anything as evil or good, but that doesn't mean he didnt consider associations with the devil in those terms, either.
He didn't believe in God so I doubt he believed in the Devil. Besides his seeing would have told him and he never once mentioned the bad ol Devil.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
|
|
In the Siberian Shamanic tribes of the Tungus people, a Dutch traveler Nicholas Vietzen, records in the year 1690 the first account of the Shaman, or, as he writes "Priest of the Devil".
Think what you want, but there are a multitude of accounts that attain Shamanic sects were in cahoots with the devil. The other side neither defends it nor supports it, so there is no basis for it being false.
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
Re: don Juan [Re: Fospher]
#5626472 - 05/13/06 09:39 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Christians, especially missionaries, have a nasty habit of labelling any non-christian worship as devil worship.
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
Re: don Juan [Re: Fospher]
#5626595 - 05/13/06 10:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Maybe that is true that the old seers were accomplices of the devil, and hence they perished while the new seers saw their folly and denied their old tradition, creating a new theology.
The whole notion that pre-Columbian indians had any notion of the Christian Devil is totally ethnocentric. It is a fundamental logical flaw in your statement. In fact the tone of that book was colored by Christian prejudice. Christians often see other types of worship as evil at worst and unenlightened at best.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
|
|
Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said: The whole notion that pre-Columbian indians had any notion of the Christian Devil is totally ethnocentric.
This makes sense. Good logic.
|
EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
Re: don Juan [Re: Fospher]
#5626925 - 05/13/06 11:39 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Don Juan called God the table cloth of the Tonal... Or rather the fabric of it. He definitely acknowledged God as a reality. He also called God the "human form"
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
|
Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
|
|
Don Juan directly says that God does not exist. He explains that when an ally was chasing him (he was an apprentice himself, then, and his benefactor brought out the ally out of another world) he was so afraid that he swore to God he'd give up the path of knowledge and become a farmer.
Later on, when Castaneda questioned him about his promise, he says:
"My benefactor said not to worry, that it had been a good promise, but that I didn't know yet that there was no one to hear such promises, because there is no God. All there is is the Eagle's emanations, and there is no way to make promises to them".
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
|
I agree. God is not a possibility, or at least an influence, in the sorcerer's world. One must be careful not to overlay ones belief systems over another one.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: don Juan [Re: Fospher]
#5627654 - 05/14/06 08:28 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Fospher said: In the Siberian Shamanic tribes of the Tungus people, a Dutch traveler Nicholas Vietzen, records in the year 1690 the first account of the Shaman, or, as he writes "Priest of the Devil".
Think what you want, but there are a multitude of accounts that attain Shamanic sects were in cahoots with the devil. The other side neither defends it nor supports it, so there is no basis for it being false.
How about reason/logic as a basis?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (05/14/06 08:31 AM)
|
EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
Re: don Juan [Re: Fospher]
#5627757 - 05/14/06 09:31 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Fospher said: Don Juan directly says that God does not exist. He explains that when an ally was chasing him (he was an apprentice himself, then, and his benefactor brought out the ally out of another world) he was so afraid that he swore to God he'd give up the path of knowledge and become a farmer.
Later on, when Castaneda questioned him about his promise, he says:
"My benefactor said not to worry, that it had been a good promise, but that I didn't know yet that there was no one to hear such promises, because there is no God. All there is is the Eagle's emanations, and there is no way to make promises to them".
Ok, well, he also said that God is the table cloth of the tonal. And he said the human form is God. So I dont see how you can say one way or the other.
“Is the nagual the Supreme Being, the Almighty, God?” I asked.
“No. God is also on the table. Let’s say that God is the tablecloth.”
He made a joking gesture of pulling the tablecloth in order to stack it up with the rest of the items he had put in front of me.
“But, are you saying that God does not exist?”
“No, I didn’t say that. All I said was that the nagual was not God, because God is an item of our personal tonal and of the tonal of the times. The tonal is, as I’ve already said, everything we think the world is composed of, including God, of course. God has no more importance other than being part of the tonal of our time.”
“In my understanding, don Juan, God is everything. Aren’t we talking about the same thing?”
“No. God is only everything you can think of, therefore, properly speaking, he is only another item on the island. God cannot be witnessed at all, he can only be talked about. The nagual, on the other hand, is at the service o the warrior. It can be witnessed, but it cannot be talked about.”
-- Tales of Power - Carlos Castaneda
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
Ok, well, he also said that God is the table cloth of the tonal
What he was saying is that God is just a concept. Concepts are in the realm of the tonal.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
|
|
Yeah I remember that part, it's from the restaurant scene where don Juan first introduces the terms nagual and tonal. The one I posted is from The Fire from Within.
I dont think it's a contradiction, just a different explanation calling from a different measure.
|
EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
Re: don Juan [Re: Fospher]
#5628179 - 05/14/06 11:44 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
The fire from within is my next book.
I believe a concept of God and it fits in very well with the sorcerer's world. Though my concept of God differs greatly from that of any western religion.
Icelander, yes, God is just a concept; like the Tonal and the Nagual are just concepts.
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
No the Nagual is not a concept. It is the unknowable. The word is just a way of alluding to something that cannot be conceptualized. As in Tao.
Now would you explain to me how God and sorcery fit together?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: No the Nagual is not a concept. It is the unknowable. The word is just a way of alluding to something that cannot be conceptualized. As in Tao.
Now would you explain to me how God and sorcery fit together?
The nagual as we think of it is a concept. Simply due to the fact that we think of it.
.....
As I see it, God is the force of life. As, don Juan points out, "God can be talked about but not seen." God is not any kind of being, God is life energy or life force. Sorcerers work with God constantly.
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
Why do you want to use the word God to define your concept? It's the subject of much controversy and sorcery has little use for it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
|
"It's the subject of much controversy and sorcery has little use for it."
Agreed. Sorcery in fact has no use for contoversy at all. It is based on that which is purely practical. God is irrelevant as the concept has no practical value beyond placating the mortal fear of death. The concepts of God and the afterlife make us into immortals. As for me, I will die. I have no use for false immortality.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
The nagual as we think of it is a concept. Simply due to the fact that we think of it.
You are not thinking of it. You are thinking of the word nagual and using your tonal to create a concept. That's not it.
.....
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: Why do you want to use the word God to define your concept? It's the subject of much controversy and sorcery has little use for it.
Its just a word, I only use that word to relate to others.
But what I speak of has much use for sorcery, as I have witnessed its use.
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
|
EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: The nagual as we think of it is a concept. Simply due to the fact that we think of it.
You are not thinking of it. You are thinking of the word nagual and using your tonal to create a concept. That's not it.
.....
Exactly, but as we think of it, it is a concept. The concept of something we cannot think of.
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
Quote:
EquilibriuM said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Why do you want to use the word God to define your concept? It's the subject of much controversy and sorcery has little use for it.
But what I speak of has much use for sorcery, as I have witnessed its use.
Explain how?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
|
The pre-Columbian Indians of southern Mexico and Guatamala were pantheistic. Monotheism had not been introduced to them and was a uniquely Old World concept. Nagualism is firmly based in the religious traditions of those people. A monotheistic God would have never had a place in such a tradition. Even entertaining the idea has no value.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
|
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
Edited by EquilibriuM (07/14/06 03:50 PM)
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
It's obvious to me at least from reading the books that Don Juan considered God something in peoples fantasies. He never confronted Carlos directly about that belief but let him figure it out for himself. It's obvious that the concept of God didn't figure in to Don Juan's brand of sorcery.
I'm still curious as to how God figures in to yours?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
|
|
Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said: "It's the subject of much controversy and sorcery has little use for it."
Agreed. Sorcery in fact has no use for contoversy at all. It is based on that which is purely practical. God is irrelevant as the concept has no practical value beyond placating the mortal fear of death. The concepts of God and the afterlife make us into immortals. As for me, I will die. I have no use for false immortality.
Immortality was implied in the sense of infinite life on this earth, a Christian belief does not contradict this by saying our flesh is immortal, anywhere.
I find incorporating the collected Castaneda writings to my life extremely practical. To me they are a moral doctrine and the concept of being a warrior goes hand in hand with my personality. As far as the afterlife goes, whatever Castaneda, the Tao, or the Bible says - you can only believe in. And a practical belief based on logic is in itself a logical contradiction hence once something is proven it no longer needs to be believed.
|
Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
|
Re: don Juan [Re: Fospher]
#5628619 - 05/14/06 02:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
I think you may be confusing "belief" with "faith."
Quote:
Belief: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence.
It is entirely possible to believe in facts which one has verified through a logical process. Faith is belief in that which cannot be verified.
|
EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: It's obvious to me at least from reading the books that Don Juan considered God something in peoples fantasies. He never confronted Carlos directly about that belief but let him figure it out for himself. It's obvious that the concept of God didn't figure in to Don Juan's brand of sorcery.
I'm still curious as to how God figures in to yours?
I agree that the idea of God as some kind of entity or human like being is something don Juan considered as something that exists in imagination.
..............
The mushrooms teach us that God is the force of life that we all come from. That eventually, we will join back up with God.
Consider a Brujas ability to remove the life force from someone. Their ability to remove someone from God. This I have witnessed, as we encountered a Bruja one day, she possessed my wife, and demonstrated her power by dimming the life force out of my wife like a dimmer light switch. We all could have easily been killed that day but thankfully, we were spared.
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
|
Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
|
Re: don Juan [Re: Veritas]
#5628639 - 05/14/06 02:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Ahh, but you see, evidence alone does not constitute proof.
I can see a saucer flying in the sky and take a polaroid, and have that as evidence of my belief in aliens. Does that mean that my belief is based on a fact that aliens exist? No, it means that I have gained a suspicion providing a possible explanation of my belief.
A belief in a fact is a logical fallacy.
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
|
Quote:
EquilibriuM said: The mushrooms teach us that God is the force of life that we all come from. That eventually, we will join back up with God.
Consider a Brujas ability to remove the life force from someone. Their ability to remove someone from God. This I have witnessed, as we encountered a Bruja one day, she possessed my wife, and demonstrated her power by dimming the life force out of my wife like a dimmer light switch. We all could have easily been killed that day but thankfully, we were spared.
A mushroom doesn't "teach" anything.
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
|
|
Quote:
fireworks_god said: A mushroom doesn't "teach" anything.
That's because you're not asking it any questions.
|
EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
|
according to you.
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
Re: don Juan [Re: Fospher]
#5628658 - 05/14/06 02:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Fospher said: That's because you're not asking it any questions.
Asking questions is being snotty and condescending, duh. 

I realize that one can learn from an experience, just as one can learn from any experience, but that does not mean that a mushroom "teaches". Does your lamp teach you?
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
|
Quote:
EquilibriuM said: according to you.
Does meth teach you?
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
|
No a lamp does not teach me, but mushrooms do. Don't be an ass.
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: don Juan [Re: Fospher]
#5628667 - 05/14/06 02:53 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Good! I'm the same and while I don't consider morality a part of the teachings, I think you're referring to impeccability which I can totally relate to. The warriors path is the only path IMO that can free us from the tyranny of ourselves and our cultural programs. You have to be willing to stop blaming life and people for your problems and take ultimate responsibility for everything in your life. It's a fine way to try and live.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
|
|
Quote:
fireworks_god said: I realize that one can learn from an experience, just as one can learn from any experience, but that does not mean that a mushroom "teaches". Does your lamp teach you?
If my lamp was the Teonanactl, it most definetely would. Does a teacher not teach?
|
EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
|
Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
EquilibriuM said: according to you.
Does meth teach you?
No, it tries to control you.
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
|
Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
|
|
Fuck yes. :thumpup:
edit: THUMP, LOL
Edited by Fospher (05/14/06 03:00 PM)
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
EquilibriuM said: The mushrooms teach us that God is the force of life that we all come from. That eventually, we will join back up with God.
Consider a Brujas ability to remove the life force from someone. Their ability to remove someone from God. This I have witnessed, as we encountered a Bruja one day, she possessed my wife, and demonstrated her power by dimming the life force out of my wife like a dimmer light switch. We all could have easily been killed that day but thankfully, we were spared.
A mushroom doesn't "teach" anything.
 Peace.
I'm not sure you are correct. But it's tricky to know what is going on. I have friends besides myself that I very much trust to tell me the truth. They claim that at a very high dose the mushrooms did teach them. I have had a similar experience with peyote.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (05/14/06 03:02 PM)
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
|
Quote:
EquilibriuM said: No a lamp does not teach me, but mushrooms do. Don't be an ass.
I'm not being an ass. One can observe a lamp and its qualities and learn a great deal of information. A lamp represents a lot of meaning.
One can learn from an experience on mushrooms, but it is rather delusional to think that a mushroom is a conscious entity that teaches one. One learns from experiences, and an experience on mushrooms is a profound experience.
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
|
Quote:
EquilibriuM said: No, it tries to control you.
Please. Meth is a substance, an arrangment of chemicals, just as psilocybin and psilocyin are. They interact differently with the brain in order to alter our perceptions and experiences of reality. It is delusional to consider them to be entities capable of choosing to influence oneself in some manner, as such cannot be evidenced or demonstrated in reality.
One takes meth; one has an experience. Same with mushrooms. Have you ever taken meth? What kind of experience have you had?
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
Re: don Juan [Re: Fospher]
#5628742 - 05/14/06 03:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Fospher said: If my lamp was the Teonanactl, it most definetely would. Does a teacher not teach?
A teacher teaches, but the fact that one is capable of learning and teaching oneself does not mean that the aspects of reality that are involved with the act of learning and teaching oneself are doing the teaching themselves.
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
|
Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
EquilibriuM said: No, it tries to control you.
Please. Meth is a substance, an arrangment of chemicals, just as psilocybin and psilocyin are. They interact differently with the brain in order to alter our perceptions and experiences of reality. It is delusional to consider them to be entities capable of choosing to influence oneself in some manner, as such cannot be evidenced or demonstrated in reality.
One takes meth; one has an experience. Same with mushrooms. Have you ever taken meth? What kind of experience have you had?
 Peace.
You are too concerned with the surface of things.
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: They claim that at a very high dose the mushrooms did teach them. I have had a similar experience with peyote.
We have an incredible ability to understand. We do not begin to realize the true nature of our minds or what we are, what we are a part of. I've had incredible experiences on mushrooms, wherein I accessed a lot of insight, understanding, and realization, the nature of such being that, as I sit here, I could not conceptualize or recreate it, as I simply am not operating within a higher state of awareness. One cannot fit an ocean within one's room.
Who's to really say? I know I'm not anyone who can. And yet, I'm far more inclined to think that it happens through us. A mushroom simply changes our brain's chemical composition so that it operates in a different manner. Our perceptions change, and it is still reality that is being perceived, and it is still us that is perceiving.
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
|
Quote:
EquilibriuM said: You are too concerned with the surface of things.
One starts with what one can know and expands upon that. Doing so is necessary and is all that we are capable of. I'd prefer to be more concerned with that which can be known by directly perceiving reality than that which can only be known through one's imagination. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
|
Which reminds me, how have you brought yourself to the conclusion that "meth attempts to control you"? I also asked if you have done meth. What was your experience like, if you have?
... If you haven't, how have you come to your conclusion?
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
|
|
So you are teaching yourself from yourself from your own mind? You can't teach yourself something you already know.
|
EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
|
Quote:
fireworks_god said: Which reminds me, how have you brought yourself to the conclusion that "meth attempts to control you"? I also asked if you have done meth. What was your experience like, if you have?
... If you haven't, how have you come to your conclusion?
 Peace.
I wouldnt talk about something I didn't know as if I knew it.
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
|
So, then, you are or are not going to talk about it?
You made a statement, "meth attempts to control you". I am asking you to elaborate further into that matter. Are you going to answer the questions or not?
Oh god, here we go again! 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
Re: don Juan [Re: Fospher]
#5628827 - 05/14/06 03:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Fospher said: So you are teaching yourself from yourself from your own mind? You can't teach yourself something you already know.
I fully realize that we are interacting with reality, but it is only ourself that is learning. One can't look at a tree and state that the tree is teaching a lesson. The tree simply is.
We are the only ones who are deriving meaning from this existance. We are teaching ourselves.
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
|
No, I am uninterested in your intrusion of this thread. You attack a personal experience as if you can change my mind about it because your personal experience differs. Sorry but thats not the way it works. It you have something constructive to add to the conversation about don Juan or sorcery, I will be glad to continue...
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
but it is rather delusional to think that a mushroom is a conscious entity that teaches one.
How does one know if there is no spirit or entity within these plants? I have reserved judgement on this. Does that make me delusional?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: How does one know if there is no spirit or entity within these plants? I have reserved judgement on this. Does that make me delusional?
Nice question. How does one know?
I've obviously reserved judgement as well, and the simple fact remains that one doesn't know.
Thus, to assume that one does know is delusional. You are not delusional, and yet someone who is assured themselves that there is a mushroom spirit that imparts divine teachings is delusional.

 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
|
Quote:
EquilibriuM said: No, I am uninterested in your intrusion of this thread. You attack a personal experience as if you can change my mind about it because your personal experience differs. Sorry but thats not the way it works. It you have something constructive to add to the conversation about don Juan or sorcery, I will be glad to continue...
Your statement, "The mushrooms teach us that God is the force of life that we all come from. That eventually, we will join back up with God.", is as much of an intrusion in this thread as my subsequent responses to that statement. If you cannot discern the difference, then so be it.
You cannot make a statement and escape any response and focus upon it by stating that doing so is an intrusion. I realize to the fullest extent that you want to state whatever the hell you want and be free of any questioning of it, as you no doubt are incapable of supporting your claims. So be it.
The thought of a chemical acting as a conscious entity that attempts to control someone is absurd. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
I'm afraid that you cannot judge what another person knows and doesn't know in this instance. You can only know what you know. I think that a spirit within peyote may have taught me. (PM me for details) I don't know though because I am not sure what happened. So I reserve judgement. A more powerful person (lets say if there were actually toltec seers) might very well know one way or another.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
|
Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
EquilibriuM said: No, I am uninterested in your intrusion of this thread. You attack a personal experience as if you can change my mind about it because your personal experience differs. Sorry but thats not the way it works. It you have something constructive to add to the conversation about don Juan or sorcery, I will be glad to continue...
Your statement, "The mushrooms teach us that God is the force of life that we all come from. That eventually, we will join back up with God.", is as much of an intrusion in this thread as my subsequent responses to that statement. If you cannot discern the difference, then so be it.
You cannot make a statement and escape any response and focus upon it by stating that doing so is an intrusion. I realize to the fullest extent that you want to state whatever the hell you want and be free of any questioning of it, as you no doubt are incapable of supporting your claims. So be it.
The thought of a chemical acting as a conscious entity that attempts to control someone is absurd. 
 Peace.
The difference is that I was asked about my belief. 
But I get it... Your much better then me, cooler and more intelligent. I am just some delusional moron. I get it, I get it, Preach on brother! Keep trying to convince yourself!
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
This kind of defensive response does not further this discussion. Let's stay on track. If you don't like his method of debate then don't debate him. Your post doesn't make him look small.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
|
This guy keeps calling me names is all. I thought that was not allowed...
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: I'm afraid that you cannot judge what another person knows and doesn't know in this instance.
Obviously not, when they refuse to answer questions and to clarify and elaborate upon their statements that allude to that which they know. 
Quote:
You can only know what you know.
No doubt. And yet, intelligence prospers (Fosphers? ) through expansion. Investigation into a matter brings new perspectives to light. Why is it, then, that being inquisitive is automatically interpreted in such a negative manner?
That is an honest question, by the way. The thought of someone holding a different viewpoint than one's own and asking questions of one's own viewpoint conjures up a host of negative reactions. Why?
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
|
Quote:
EquilibriuM said: The difference is that I was asked about my belief. 
What difference does that make? Read the forum rules.
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
|
Quote:
EquilibriuM said: This guy keeps calling me names is all. I thought that was not allowed...
Are you going to consider substantiating that allegation? What names have I directed at you, my friend?
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
Maybe your tone sounded arrogant? As in 'your beliefs sound rather delusional".
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
|
Quote:
fireworks_god said: someone who is assured themselves that there is a mushroom spirit that imparts divine teachings is delusional.
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
|
EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
|
Quote:
fireworks_god said:The thought of a chemical acting as a conscious entity that attempts to control someone is absurd. 
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: Maybe your tone sounded arrogant? As in 'your beliefs sound rather delusional".
Yes, I stated that, from my perspective, your beliefs sound rather delusional. I then offered my reasoning for why it is that I came to that conclusion. What exactly is not preferential about that? I will go unearth the related thread concerning yourself and a similar statement. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
|
Quote:
fireworks_god said: it is rather delusional to think that a mushroom is a conscious entity that teaches one.
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
|
So what? All three are valid observations. None of them are directed agansit your personal character, and all deal with ideas and thoughts in discussion. Read the forum rules. None of them are violating anything.
Do you care to discuss any of them? The majority of individuals on this planet will likely come to the same conclusion that a chemical is not a conscious entity that attempts to control a person. The thought is absurd, and I have offered my explanation why.
Is it easier to liken such a statement to name-calling, to not offer one's own thoughts on the matter? Of course it is, especially when it is directed agansit thoughts and ideas that one has presented themselves. Hardly a suprise. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: I didn't say anything personal about fivepointer. I called his god petty and asked him to give his two cents so people could see what I'm talking about.
Quote:
Icelander said: It would be a personalism to say that you are an ass. It would not be to say that your ideas are asinine.
Now, considering that, who gives a fuck if my "tone sounded arrogant"? There is no difference between here and that thread from which I have extracted your quotes.
What do you have to say?
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
|
"We were talking about don Juan, not "The pre-Columbian Indians of southern Mexico and Guatamala." Don Juan talked about God, perhaps that talk "has no value" but thats what we were talking about."
No...your talking about Nagualism. A practice Carlos Castaneda popularised.....a pre-Columbian practice. At least get your background straight. Do some research before attempting to discuss a subject foreign to your knowledge base.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
I'm saying. (to your origional question) maybe to them you sounded arrogant. I know I often do because I am. And I suspect very strongly that you are too. I answered your question by speculating on the reasons they might find your response offensive. So that's what I have to say. Now what do you have to say?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
|
Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said: At least get your background straight. Do some research before attempting to discuss a subject foreign to your knowledge base.
Careful there, Huehue, you don't want to sound arrogant, now do you? 

 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: I'm saying. (to your origional question) maybe to them you sounded arrogant. I know I often do because I am. And I suspect very strongly that you are too. I answered your question by speculating on the reasons they might find your response offensive. So that's what I have to say. Now what do you have to say?
I don't think I tend to be too arrogant, honestly. Referring to such a belief as being a delusion isn't necessarily arrogant, it is an honest assessment based upon my perspective. It is open to discussion. Discussion is encouraged, in fact, and is beneficial.
The difference between myself and the presentation that occurs here is distinct. This is a role that has been carefully formulated as the result of observations of and interaction with hundreds of posters here over the course of years. It never ceases to amaze me how much people will tend to react as they do. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
|
He's already pulled over! He cant pull over any further!
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
|
"Careful there, Huehue, you don't want to sound arrogant, now do you?"
If you interpret sound knowledge as arrogance then I am arrogant. The whole point of bringing Christian beliefs and sensibilities into an alien magical system is ridiculous. To even argue it as a possibility is so profoundly uninformed as to be not worthy of discussion. I suspect you, however, know this.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
|
Christian beliefs had no part of what I was speaking. However you obviously know much more about the pre-Columbian Indians of southern Mexico and Guatamala, I know little more about them then what I have read about don Juan and those associated with him. Which is why I was trying to speak about don Juan (something I knew) and what he said about God... and subsequently how that fit in with my personal experiences...
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
|
Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said: If you interpret sound knowledge as arrogance then I am arrogant. The whole point of bringing Christian beliefs and sensibilities into an alien magical system is ridiculous. To even argue it as a possibility is so profoundly uninformed as to be not worthy of discussion. I suspect you, however, know this.
I know this. I was simply just spoofing my being considered arrogant by some, and other related recent events. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
|
I do not consider you arrogant at all. You are most often very well informed.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
I don't think I tend to be too arrogant
Very few people can honestly look at themselves in a negative light. Unless they have just taken some shrooms of course.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: The warriors path is the only path IMO that can free us from the tyranny of ourselves and our cultural programs.
The ONLY path?
|
Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
|
|
Quote:
fireworks_god said: I fully realize that we are interacting with reality, but it is only ourself that is learning. One can't look at a tree and state that the tree is teaching a lesson. The tree simply is.
Am I talking about...trees? Am I talking about lamps?! Do either of these induce an introspective metaphysical experience? Why do you keep bringing up this non-relative nonsense?
Quote:
We are the only ones who are deriving meaning from this existance. We are teaching ourselves.
Really? So if in school you learned how to spell, you wouldn't say that you were taught that information, but that you derived the meaning of it's existance out of the teacher's mouth?
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
|
My knowledge is based on nearly a decade of shamanic practice and experience with the nagual as well as books. I know the subject very well. What Icelander has said on this issue is spot on....I see no need to repeat this info myself as he has done a more than adequate job.
"Christian beliefs had no part of what I was speaking." A single God/creator is unknown to the tradition of which you speak.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
|
"it is rather delusional to think that a mushroom is a conscious entity that teaches one"
Carefully rephrased for Mushmanicological accuracy: "Based on my (Firework's) experience and understanding, it appears to be rather delusional to think that a mushroom is a concious entity that teaches one."
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:
Icelander said: The warriors path is the only path IMO that can free us from the tyranny of ourselves and our cultural programs.
The ONLY path?
Yes! I said IMO it's the only path. You don't have to be a sorcerer or seer to be a warrior. It's an attitude.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
|
Nietzsche, Emerson, Sade, Lautreamont, Camus, etc, weren't freed from the tyranny of themselves and their cultural programs?
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
Re: don Juan [Re: Fospher]
#5629394 - 05/14/06 05:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Fospher said:
Quote:
fireworks_god said: Am I talking about...trees? Am I talking about lamps?! Do either of these induce an introspective metaphysical experience? Why do you keep bringing up this non-relative nonsense?
I am emphasizing the fact that there is no real difference between a tree, a lamp, or a mushroom. All three are simply aspects of existance that we interact with in some manner. A tree is just as conducive to an introspective, metaphysical experience as a mushroom is. It is an individual who has an introspective, metaphysical experience. It is entirely up to them.
Quote:
Really? So if in school you learned how to spell, you wouldn't say that you were taught that information, but that you derived the meaning of it's existance out of the teacher's mouth?
Is a teacher another human being or not? 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
|
Eh, ok... maybe Sade tyrannized himself... but he enjoyed it, so that doesn't count!
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
|
Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: Carefully rephrased for Mushmanicological accuracy: "Based on my (Firework's) experience and understanding, it appears to be rather delusional to think that a mushroom is a concious entity that teaches one."
It is based upon more than my experience and understanding. I'm pretty sure that scientific consensus supports the statement. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
|
Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: "it is rather delusional to think that a mushroom is a conscious entity that teaches one"
Carefully rephrased for Mushmanicological accuracy: "Based on my (Firework's) experience and understanding, it appears to be rather delusional to think that a mushroom is a concious entity that teaches one."
You might find this thread interesting...
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5606196/an/0/page/0
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
|
Science refuses to say anything about the supernatural.
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
|
Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: Science refuses to say anything about the supernatural.
Scientific understanding offers no substantiation to the claim that a chemical is a conscious entity that can teach someone. That is my point. Scientific understanding offers a plausible explanation for the effects of a chemical on an individual, and this explanation does not involve a chemical being conscious and offering lessons.
Thus, scientific understanding, in a way, supports that such a belief is delusional, as it does not support it. It does not refute it, but yet it does not support it.
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: Nietzsche, Emerson, Sade, Lautreamont, Camus, etc, weren't freed from the tyranny of themselves and their cultural programs?
Too bad for them. Maybe someone should have told them about being a warrior, or maybe they knew about it and said bullshit on that noise.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
|
Quote:
EquilibriuM said: You might find this thread interesting...
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5606196/an/0/page/0
A popcorn kernel explodes when a certain temperature is reached. So what?
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
|
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
|
Very true, but! If a person believes in supernaturalism, I don't think s/he will be easily convinced by a naturalist argument.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|

OH! You're saying they were. Well if so then IMO they would have had to act as warriors to do that. Anyone can decide to be a warrior. As I said, it's an attitude.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
|
Warriors have an ulterior purpose for their acts which has nothing to do with personal gain. The average man acts only if there is a chance for profit. Warriors act not for profit, but for the spirit.
For the average man, the world is weird because if he's not bored with it, he's at odds with it. For a warrior, the world is weird because it is stupendous, awesome, mysterious, unfathomable. A warrior must assume responsibility for being here, in this marvelous world, in this marvelous time.
Impeccability begins with a single act that has to be deliberate, precise and sustained. If that act is repeated long enough, one acquires a sense of unbending intent which can be applied to anything else. If that is accomplished the road is clear. One thing will lead to another until the warrior realizes his full potential.
Any movement of the assemblage point means a movement away from an excessive concern with the individual self. Shamans believe it is the position of the assemblage point which makes modern man a homicidal egoist, a being totally involved with his self-image. Having lost hope of ever returning to the source of everything, the average man seeks solace in his selfishness.
A warrior must cultivate the feeling that he has everything needed for the extravagant journey that is his life. What counts for a warrior is being alive. Life in itself is sufficient, self-explanatory and complete. Therefore, one may say without being presumptuous that the experience of experiences is being alive.
A warrior must focus his attention on the link between himself and his death. Without remorse or sadness or worrying, he must focus his attention on the fact that he does not have time and let his acts flow accordingly. He must let each of his acts be his last battle on earth. Only under those conditions will his acts have their rightful power. Otherwise they will be, for as long as he lives, the acts of a fool.
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
Yes! That's it. I think it's time to present some more of Carlos's ideas for discussion. Seems there are some folk here who have an understanding of this material. Let's see. I will start another thread.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
|
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
|
Did anyone else think the tonal seemed awfully similar to maya?
|
Kiwishroomer
Stranger
Registered: 05/15/06
Posts: 9
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
|
|
Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said: Here is some interesting info. The information has surfaced recently that in the course of writing his books that Carlos Castaneda consulted as many as 11 shaman. The one that influenced his views the most was a Yaqui Shaman from Sonora Mexico His name is Grandfather Tezlcazi Guitimea Cachora. Castaneda reportedly studied with him for 3 to 4 years. Yaqui shamanism is the source for most of the techniques and ideas promoted in his books. Of course his books were fictionalized accounts of his apprenticeship mixed with symbolic references designed to convey a teaching. I attached a picture of this guy, who is actually still alive and nearly 90 years old.
Just the sort of thing I was after, helpful. Thanks
|
Kiwishroomer
Stranger
Registered: 05/15/06
Posts: 9
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
|
|
Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said: Here is some interesting info. The information has surfaced recently that in the course of writing his books that Carlos Castaneda consulted as many as 11 shaman. The one that influenced his views the most was a Yaqui Shaman from Sonora Mexico His name is Grandfather Tezlcazi Guitimea Cachora. Castaneda reportedly studied with him for 3 to 4 years. Yaqui shamanism is the source for most of the techniques and ideas promoted in his books. Of course his books were fictionalized accounts of his apprenticeship mixed with symbolic references designed to convey a teaching. I attached a picture of this guy, who is actually still alive and nearly 90 years old.
Just the sort of thing I was after. Helpful, thanks
|
Sporetacus
Swashbuckler

Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 152
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
|
|
Quote:
The average man acts only if there is a chance for profit. Warriors act not for profit, but for the spirit.
Both act FOR something, just a different payoff; not a big difference.
-------------------- I'm Sporetacus!
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
|
Quote:
Sporetacus said:
Quote:
The average man acts only if there is a chance for profit. Warriors act not for profit, but for the spirit.
Both act FOR something, just a different payoff; not a big difference.
So people should act for no reason at all? I fail to see your logic here(perhaps because there isn't any).
--------------------
|
Sporetacus
Swashbuckler

Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 152
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
|
|
Acting 'for the spirit' is so vague as to be meaningless.
-------------------- I'm Sporetacus!
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
|
No it is very precise. It means to do something because it is worth doing...to act with puspose instead of acting as if one is asleep constantly.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
|