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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: don Juan [Re: Fospher]
    #5625935 - 05/13/06 07:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The Devil misconception was brought in from Christianity and has nothing to do with Sorcery IMO. That kind of black and white thinking belongs to Christianity. Don Juan had relationships with the old style toltec seers in the likes of la catalina and such. It was a difference in philosophy and goals and not good vs evil.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: don Juan [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5625977 - 05/13/06 08:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Interesting stuff.

I think I could take him in the arena though.


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I'm Sporetacus!


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OfflineFospher
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Re: don Juan [Re: Icelander]
    #5625983 - 05/13/06 08:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I don't think Don Juan condemned anything as evil or good, but that doesn't mean he didnt consider associations with the devil in those terms, either.


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OfflineFospher
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Re: don Juan [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5625992 - 05/13/06 08:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Only one way to find out.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: don Juan [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5626041 - 05/13/06 08:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sporetacus said:
Interesting stuff.

I think I could take him in the arena though.




From what I hear of him I think I'm gonna have to bet on him. He should be able to run until you get tired.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: don Juan [Re: Fospher]
    #5626054 - 05/13/06 08:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
I don't think Don Juan condemned anything as evil or good, but that doesn't mean he didnt consider associations with the devil in those terms, either.




He didn't believe in God so I doubt he believed in the Devil. Besides his seeing would have told him and he never once mentioned the bad ol Devil.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineFospher
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Re: don Juan [Re: Icelander]
    #5626421 - 05/13/06 09:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

In the Siberian Shamanic tribes of the Tungus people, a Dutch traveler Nicholas Vietzen, records in the year 1690 the first account of the Shaman, or, as he writes "Priest of the Devil".

Think what you want, but there are a multitude of accounts that attain Shamanic sects were in cahoots with the devil. The other side neither defends it nor supports it, so there is no basis for it being false.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: don Juan [Re: Fospher]
    #5626472 - 05/13/06 09:39 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Christians, especially missionaries, have a nasty habit of labelling any non-christian worship as devil worship.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: don Juan [Re: Fospher]
    #5626595 - 05/13/06 10:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Maybe that is true that the old seers were accomplices of the devil, and hence they perished while the new seers saw their folly and denied their old tradition, creating a new theology.




The whole notion that pre-Columbian indians had any notion of the Christian Devil is totally ethnocentric. It is a fundamental logical flaw in your statement. In fact the tone of that book was colored by Christian prejudice. Christians often see other types of worship as evil at worst and unenlightened at best.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineFospher
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Re: don Juan [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5626715 - 05/13/06 10:35 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
The whole notion that pre-Columbian indians had any notion of the Christian Devil is totally ethnocentric.




This makes sense. Good logic.


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: don Juan [Re: Fospher]
    #5626925 - 05/13/06 11:39 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Don Juan called God the table cloth of the Tonal... Or rather the fabric of it. He definitely acknowledged God as a reality. He also called God the "human form"


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OfflineFospher
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Re: don Juan [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5627085 - 05/14/06 12:34 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Don Juan directly says that God does not exist. He explains that when an ally was chasing him (he was an apprentice himself, then, and his benefactor brought out the ally out of another world) he was so afraid that he swore to God he'd give up the path of knowledge and become a farmer.

Later on, when Castaneda questioned him about his promise, he says:

"My benefactor said not to worry, that it had been a good promise, but that I didn't know yet that there was no one to hear such promises, because there is no God. All there is is the Eagle's emanations, and there is no way to make promises to them".


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: don Juan [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5627146 - 05/14/06 12:53 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I agree. God is not a possibility, or at least an influence, in the sorcerer's world. One must be careful not to overlay ones belief systems over another one.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: don Juan [Re: Fospher]
    #5627654 - 05/14/06 08:28 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
In the Siberian Shamanic tribes of the Tungus people, a Dutch traveler Nicholas Vietzen, records in the year 1690 the first account of the Shaman, or, as he writes "Priest of the Devil".

Think what you want, but there are a multitude of accounts that attain Shamanic sects were in cahoots with the devil. The other side neither defends it nor supports it, so there is no basis for it being false.




How about reason/logic as a basis? :rolleyes:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (05/14/06 08:31 AM)


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: don Juan [Re: Fospher]
    #5627757 - 05/14/06 09:31 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
Don Juan directly says that God does not exist. He explains that when an ally was chasing him (he was an apprentice himself, then, and his benefactor brought out the ally out of another world) he was so afraid that he swore to God he'd give up the path of knowledge and become a farmer.

Later on, when Castaneda questioned him about his promise, he says:

"My benefactor said not to worry, that it had been a good promise, but that I didn't know yet that there was no one to hear such promises, because there is no God. All there is is the Eagle's emanations, and there is no way to make promises to them".




Ok, well, he also said that God is the table cloth of the tonal. And he said the human form is God. So I dont see how you can say one way or the other.



“Is the nagual the Supreme Being, the Almighty, God?” I asked.

“No. God is also on the table. Let’s say that God is the tablecloth.”

He made a joking gesture of pulling the tablecloth in order to stack it up with the rest of the items he had put in front of me.

“But, are you saying that God does not exist?”

“No, I didn’t say that. All I said was that the nagual was not God, because God is an item of our personal tonal and of the tonal of the times. The tonal is, as I’ve already said, everything we think the world is composed of, including God, of course. God has no more importance other than being part of the tonal of our time.”

“In my understanding, don Juan, God is everything. Aren’t we talking about the same thing?”

“No. God is only everything you can think of, therefore, properly speaking, he is only another item on the island. God cannot be witnessed at all, he can only be talked about. The nagual, on the other hand, is at the service o the warrior. It can be witnessed, but it cannot be talked about.”


-- Tales of Power - Carlos Castaneda


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HELP!!!!!!!!!


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: don Juan [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5627814 - 05/14/06 09:45 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Ok, well, he also said that God is the table cloth of the tonal

What he was saying is that God is just a concept. Concepts are in the realm of the tonal.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineFospher
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Re: don Juan [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5628156 - 05/14/06 11:35 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah I remember that part, it's from the restaurant scene where don Juan first introduces the terms nagual and tonal. The one I posted is from The Fire from Within.

I dont think it's a contradiction, just a different explanation calling from a different measure.


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: don Juan [Re: Fospher]
    #5628179 - 05/14/06 11:44 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The fire from within is my next book.

I believe a concept of God and it fits in very well with the sorcerer's world. Though my concept of God differs greatly from that of any western religion.



Icelander, yes, God is just a concept; like the Tonal and the Nagual are just concepts.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: don Juan [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5628233 - 05/14/06 12:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

No the Nagual is not a concept. It is the unknowable. The word is just a way of alluding to something that cannot be conceptualized. As in Tao.

Now would you explain to me how God and sorcery fit together?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: don Juan [Re: Icelander]
    #5628295 - 05/14/06 12:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
No the Nagual is not a concept. It is the unknowable. The word is just a way of alluding to something that cannot be conceptualized. As in Tao.

Now would you explain to me how God and sorcery fit together?




The nagual as we think of it is a concept. Simply due to the fact that we think of it.


.....

As I see it, God is the force of life. As, don Juan points out, "God can be talked about but not seen." God is not any kind of being, God is life energy or life force. Sorcerers work with God constantly.


--------------------
HELP!!!!!!!!!


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