Home | Community | Message Board

MagicBag Grow Bags
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   PhytoExtractum Kratom Powder for Sale   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]
Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls
    #5623931 - 05/13/06 09:49 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, using data provided by AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, people with direct knowledge of the arrangement told USA TODAY.

The NSA program reaches into homes and businesses across the nation by amassing information about the calls of ordinary Americans — most of whom aren't suspected of any crime. This program does not involve the NSA listening to or recording conversations. But the spy agency is using the data to analyze calling patterns in an effort to detect terrorist activity, sources said in separate interviews.

"It's the largest database ever assembled in the world," said one person, who, like the others who agreed to talk about the NSA's activities, declined to be identified by name or affiliation. The agency's goal is "to create a database of every call ever made" within the nation's borders, this person added.

The three telecommunications companies are working under contract with the NSA, which launched the program in 2001 shortly after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, the sources said. The program is aimed at identifying and tracking suspected terrorists, they said.

The sources would talk only under a guarantee of anonymity because the NSA program is secret.

Air Force Gen. Michael Hayden, nominated Monday by President Bush to become the director of the CIA, headed the NSA from March 1999 to April 2005. In that post, Hayden would have overseen the agency's domestic call-tracking program. Hayden declined to comment about the program.

The NSA's domestic program, as described by sources, is far more expansive than what the White House has acknowledged. Last year, Bush said he had authorized the NSA to eavesdrop — without warrants — on international calls and international e-mails of people suspected of having links to terrorists when one party to the communication is in the USA. Warrants have also not been used in the NSA's efforts to create a national call database.

In defending the previously disclosed program, Bush insisted that the NSA was focused exclusively on international calls. "In other words," Bush explained, "one end of the communication must be outside the United States."

As a result, domestic call records — those of calls that originate and terminate within U.S. borders — were believed to be private.

Sources, however, say that is not the case. With access to records of billions of domestic calls, the NSA has gained a secret window into the communications habits of millions of Americans. Customers' names, street addresses and other personal information are not being handed over as part of NSA's domestic program, the sources said. But the phone numbers the NSA collects can easily be cross-checked with other databases to obtain that information.


CARRIERS UNIQUELY POSITIONED


AT&T recently merged with SBC and kept the AT&T name. Verizon, BellSouth and AT&T are the nation's three biggest telecommunications companies; they provide local and wireless phone service to more than 200 million customers.

The three carriers control vast networks with the latest communications technologies. They provide an array of services: local and long-distance calling, wireless and high-speed broadband, including video. Their direct access to millions of homes and businesses has them uniquely positioned to help the government keep tabs on the calling habits of Americans.

Among the big telecommunications companies, only Qwest has refused to help the NSA, the sources said. According to multiple sources, Qwest declined to participate because it was uneasy about the legal implications of handing over customer information to the government without warrants.

Qwest's refusal to participate has left the NSA with a hole in its database. Based in Denver, Qwest provides local phone service to 14 million customers in 14 states in the West and Northwest. But AT&T and Verizon also provide some services — primarily long-distance and wireless — to people who live in Qwest's region. Therefore, they can provide the NSA with at least some access in that area.

Created by President Truman in 1952, during the Korean War, the NSA is charged with protecting the United States from foreign security threats. The agency was considered so secret that for years the government refused to even confirm its existence. Government insiders used to joke that NSA stood for "No Such Agency."

In 1975, a congressional investigation revealed that the NSA had been intercepting, without warrants, international communications for more than 20 years at the behest of the CIA and other agencies. The spy campaign, code-named "Shamrock," led to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), which was designed to protect Americans from illegal eavesdropping.

The usefulness of the NSA's domestic phone-call database as a counterterrorism tool is unclear. Also unclear is whether the database has been used for other purposes.

In the case of the NSA's international call-tracking program, Bush signed an executive order allowing the NSA to engage in eavesdropping without a warrant. The president and his representatives have since argued that an executive order was sufficient for the agency to proceed. Some civil liberties groups, including the American Civil Liberties Union, disagree.


COMPANIES APPROACHED


The NSA's domestic program began soon after the Sept. 11 attacks, according to the sources. Right around that time, they said, NSA representatives approached the nation's biggest telecommunications companies. The agency made an urgent pitch: National security is at risk, and we need your help to protect the country from attacks.

The agency told the companies that it wanted them to turn over their "call-detail records," a complete listing of the calling histories of their millions of customers. In addition, the NSA wanted the carriers to provide updates, which would enable the agency to keep tabs on the nation's calling habits.

The sources said the NSA made clear that it was willing to pay for the cooperation. AT&T, which at the time was headed by C. Michael Armstrong, agreed to help the NSA. So did BellSouth, headed by F. Duane Ackerman; SBC, headed by Ed Whitacre; and Verizon, headed by Ivan Seidenberg.

With that, the NSA's domestic program began in earnest.


ONE COMPANY DIFFERS


One major telecommunications company declined to participate in the program: Qwest.

According to sources familiar with the events, Qwest's CEO at the time, Joe Nacchio, was deeply troubled by the NSA's assertion that Qwest didn't need a court order — or approval under FISA — to proceed. Adding to the tension, Qwest was unclear about who, exactly, would have access to its customers' information and how that information might be used.

Financial implications were also a concern, the sources said. Carriers that illegally divulge calling information can be subjected to heavy fines. The NSA was asking Qwest to turn over millions of records. The fines, in the aggregate, could have been substantial.

The NSA told Qwest that other government agencies, including the FBI, CIA and DEA, also might have access to the database, the sources said. As a matter of practice, the NSA regularly shares its information — known as "product" in intelligence circles — with other intelligence groups. Even so, Qwest's lawyers were troubled by the expansiveness of the NSA request, the sources said.

The NSA, which needed Qwest's participation to completely cover the country, pushed back hard.

Trying to put pressure on Qwest, NSA representatives pointedly told Qwest that it was the lone holdout among the big telecommunications companies. It also tried appealing to Qwest's patriotic side: In one meeting, an NSA representative suggested that Qwest's refusal to contribute to the database could compromise national security, one person recalled.

In addition, the agency suggested that Qwest's foot-dragging might affect its ability to get future classified work with the government. Like other big telecommunications companies, Qwest already had classified contracts and hoped to get more.

Unable to get comfortable with what NSA was proposing, Qwest's lawyers asked NSA to take its proposal to the FISA court. According to the sources, the agency refused.

The NSA's explanation did little to satisfy Qwest's lawyers. "They told (Qwest) they didn't want to do that because FISA might not agree with them," one person recalled. For similar reasons, this person said, NSA rejected Qwest's suggestion of getting a letter of authorization from the U.S. attorney general's office. A second person confirmed this version of events.

In June 2002, Nacchio resigned amid allegations that he had misled investors about Qwest's financial health. But Qwest's legal questions about the NSA request remained.

Unable to reach agreement, Nacchio's successor, Richard Notebaert, finally pulled the plug on the NSA talks in late 2004, the sources said.





http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOJK
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 06/08/03
Posts: 10,629
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: exclusive58]
    #5623951 - 05/13/06 09:54 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

That is a tremendously stupid program.

"Terrorism" is a pathetic excuse for taking details of every telephone call in an entire country.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepsilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 812
Loc: Airstrip One
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: exclusive58]
    #5624055 - 05/13/06 10:16 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Across Europe there are now laws regarding telecoms data retention and allowing access to government agencies with some fucking harsh penalties for none compliance. They were championed by British Home Secretary Charles Clark.

All telcos keep call logs (time/date, caller, destination, duration), it is required for billing. Most cell networks nowadays have a pretty good idea where the caller was too. There are even public services that allow you locate a cell phone on demand.
Now the law requires that these logs retained for some considerable time, 7 years in some cases.

I always find it funny in the films when they try and keep the caller on the line for a trace, if you know the number that was called, the rough time and you ask within a few months, you got your trace.

BTW: I would not be so worried about the government, your phone records are probably up for sale anyway.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-privacy05.html


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinewilshire
free radical
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 days
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: exclusive58]
    #5624059 - 05/13/06 10:17 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

it's time for us all to realize that modern telecommunication is the greatest surveillance tool that has ever existed. to think it can actually be made any other way, either by legislation or private contracts, is naive. the government isn't going to stop this. the industry won't either. it works because most people are completely illiterate when it comes to technology and don't make efforts to protect their privacy.

you can take control. learn how to use encryption. it's not hard. consider ditching proprietary software, which will soon be coming with all kinds of privacy-violating DRM goodies. you can use anonymizing proxy networks like tor. the technology is out there. if you want privacy in the 21st century, learn it and use it. protect yourself.


--------------------



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOJK
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 06/08/03
Posts: 10,629
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: wilshire]
    #5624084 - 05/13/06 10:23 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The problem with that model of privacy is that once electronic surveillance is common place, and everybody is used to the idea of all telecommunications being logged and monitored, it's a lot easier for the government to outlaw software that bypassing the monitoring (encryption software, proxy services, etc.)

After all, it's only a very small minority of people that use them, and why don't they want the government to monitor their communications like everybody else? What have the got to hide? They're probably all terrorists/communists/whatever-pathetic-scape-goat-the-government-happens-to-be-using-at-the-time


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: exclusive58]
    #5624118 - 05/13/06 10:30 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Man...this shit freaks me out.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepsilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 812
Loc: Airstrip One
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: wilshire]
    #5624167 - 05/13/06 10:45 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

:thumbup:

Indeed, telecoms is just source (a major one) of the digital fingerprints we leave as we go through our lives.

Tracked from our pocket by our phone, by the cards in our wallet, by the number plate on our cars, by the cameras on the street and by the microchips in our clothing and the items we buy (RFID).

I fear a future where mass surveillance is used by governments and business. It will inevitably subvert our democracy and cost us our freedoms.

Government through surveillance and the media will be able manipulate political discussion, stifle thought before it becomes a problem and keep their own propaganda machines finely tuned. 

Business has to compete by offering us consumers choice, imagine a world where the chips in your shoes talk to chips in every product in your house and chips in the clothing of people you meet. Then report this wealth of information back when you go to the supermarket.
Armed with this data companies can save a fortune on product development and marketing. They know what you will and won't buy and where you bought it already, so why take a risk on something new.

People knowing every action is monitored will be more conformist.

Mass surveillance threatens the very soul of humanity.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepsilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 812
Loc: Airstrip One
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: OJK]
    #5624185 - 05/13/06 10:51 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Encryption in a sea of unencrypted data sticks out like a sore thumb.

Encryption may not end up being a crime, but will constitute probable cause on its own, using it could cause you a lot trouble.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinegrimR
hippiousmaximous
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/29/06
Posts: 1,235
Loc: North America
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: psilomonkey]
    #5624186 - 05/13/06 10:52 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

originally encryption carried export laws for us citizens. I guess they lost control of that. I'm sure with their large databases and sniffing off the very lines of the communications of their citizens, they will bring back encryption restrictions.


--------------------
- grimR


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
http://egolost.com 
"I am already given to the power that rules my fate. And I cling to nothing, so I will have nothing to defend. I have no thoughts, so I will see. I fear nothing, so I will remember myself."

- Don Juan teachings


Edited by grimR (05/13/06 10:55 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblebukkake
Male

Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: exclusive58]
    #5624231 - 05/13/06 11:07 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Mass surveillance and spying on Americans and not a peep from the American population. Most even support it!

I guess you need a dollar menu or a Big Mac to get their attention.

Note that totalitarianism is largely a movement of the twentieth century because of the evolution of technology, much like these capabilities.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: wilshire]
    #5624234 - 05/13/06 11:08 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:

you can take control. learn how to use encryption. it's not hard. consider ditching proprietary software, which will soon be coming with all kinds of privacy-violating DRM goodies. you can use anonymizing proxy networks like tor. the technology is out there. if you want privacy in the 21st century, learn it and use it. protect yourself.




Ya, or you can just subscribe to the Qwest telephone company. Seems like they're the only company which hasn't accepted to be bribed by the government, and is actually asking questions about the legal issues involved in NSA's wiretapping programs. All other companies aren't asking questions at all, they're just taking the money, and giving the info. Its a matter of national security!  :rolleyes:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: psilomonkey]
    #5624256 - 05/13/06 11:17 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

psilomonkey said:


People knowing every action is monitored will be more conformist.

Mass surveillance threatens the very soul of humanity.




:thumbup:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTheCow
Stranger

Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 4,790
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: exclusive58]
    #5624658 - 05/13/06 01:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Theres a professor here who does some research with facial recognition technology. They are getting really good at it let me tell you, it is quite accurate. I was going to do research for him because hes one of the most famous image processing/computer vision researchers in the US, but I just morally couldn't do it. Theres no way I can contribute to this shit. Fuck


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: exclusive58]
    #5625196 - 05/13/06 04:35 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Sigh. More hysterical nonsense over old news.

Read this article and chill out. http://www.opinionjournal.com/weekend/hottopic/?id=110008376




Phred


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: bukkake]
    #5625226 - 05/13/06 04:53 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I can understand the complacency. This program will not be shut down for as long as we're still using phones. No chance.


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: exclusive58]
    #5625227 - 05/13/06 04:53 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

still waiting for the NSA to nail me to a cross for all the illegal shit I've done over the phone. 

go ahead punks.  make my day. 

:lol:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinebeatnicknick
The Innovator
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 1,074
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5625313 - 05/13/06 05:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
still waiting for the NSA to nail me to a cross for all the illegal shit I've done over the phone. 

go ahead punks.  make my day. 

:lol:




I know, I know, you think this whole thing is about your personal life and people are overreacting, and that's understandable, what's the government going to do about something you said over the phone?  However, you can't let this distract you from the seriousness of the situation, they are monitoring everything and this is a stab at our civil liberties.  When rebellion groups arise, there forms of communication are monitored, they can be deemed "terrorists" and shut down.  So what happens when they take a deeper stab at our freedoms? How do we defend ourselves when they have that kind of control? How can our civil liberties be preserved?

The internet will soon be under regulation of the government.  It's happening right now. When this program, known as "net neutrallity" begins, all forms of media and mass communication will be regulated by the government.  When they control all flow of information, they control what we believe.

This is not what our forefathers stood for. This is not the America we know and love.  We must free and allowed to rebel against tyranny, or tyranny will rule.


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.


Edited by beatnicknick (05/13/06 05:34 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinebeatnicknick
The Innovator
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 1,074
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: Phred]
    #5625324 - 05/13/06 05:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Sigh. More hysterical nonsense over old news.

Read this article and chill out. http://www.opinionjournal.com/weekend/hottopic/?id=110008376




Phred




Phred, do you care about America at all? Why would you rather try and kill the hype instead of investigating it and understand why its such a serious problem?


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOJK
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 06/08/03
Posts: 10,629
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: Phred]
    #5625327 - 05/13/06 05:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Phred, you find the reaction to this program "hysterical"?

You don't find it a little odd that the state is attempting to assemble a register of every call made by american citizens suspected of no crime?

You don't the precedent of the gathering of personal information by federal authorities without a warrant worrying?

How, exactly, could this program possibly be used to fight terrorism without invading the privacy of millions of Americans?

Do you have no problem with being investigated by federal government because a terrorist suspect makes a phone call to someone who makes a phone call to you?

I to some extent understand supporting this program, but calling opposition to it "hysterical" is propagandist nonsense.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: OJK]
    #5625398 - 05/13/06 06:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phred, you find the reaction to this program "hysterical"?




I find the MSM's deliberate spin on it to be hysterical, yes. Dishonest, too.

Quote:

You don't find it a little odd that the state is attempting to assemble a register of every call made by american citizens suspected of no crime?




Not in the slightest. It's the least intrusive way I can think of for gathering information which may expose the next terrorist cell operating out of the US.

Quote:

You don't the precedent of the gathering of personal information by federal authorities without a warrant worrying?




No, for two reasons:

One -- it doesn't set a "precedent". This is absolutely nothing new. Telephone companies have been required by law to hand over this information whenever asked for decades now. No warrant required. Note that under the law they CANNOT say no. The only difference with this program is the scale, but that has no bearing on the legal aspects. It's perfectly legal and has been for decades.

Two -- telcos routinely make this information available to both their own marketing people and to other businesses. I'd much rather have the history of who I called and when sit unnoticed in a NSA database than be actively perused by annoying telemarketers.

Quote:

How, exactly, could this program possibly be used to fight terrorism without invading the privacy of millions of Americans?




Your definition of "invading the privacy" of millions of Americans differs from that of the Supreme Court. If you use the equipment of a phone company and pay them for it, the Supreme Court has ruled you have no reasonable expectation of privacy regarding who you called. The telcos have no legal obligation to keep that information private.

Quote:

Do you have no problem with being investigated by federal government because a terrorist suspect makes a phone call to someone who makes a phone call to you?




None whatsoever. I'd welcome it -- it would show that for once the government is actually doing something they are SUPPOSED to do rather than pissing away my tax dollars on pork barrel projects.

Quote:

I to some extent understand supporting this program, but calling opposition to it "hysterical" is propagandist nonsense.




No, what is propagandist nonsense is presenting it in as dishonest a manner as possible, as USA Today did. Their carefully phrased spin on it was deliberate -- no one misrepresents things to that extent by accident. Fortunately, the vast majority of Americans see through their crap. Quick polls taken immediately after the story was run show two out of three have no problem with the program. I doubt very much you'll see those numbers change with further polls.

Further, for USA Today to rehash this know -- just when General Hayden has been announced as replacement for Porter Goss -- is a transparently lame attempt to drum up "new" "controversy" about the NSA, which Hayden headed up for years. When I said the story was old news, I meant it -- the New York Times ran the same story last December, with the same lack of public outrage.




Phred


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5625405 - 05/13/06 06:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

yeah, I know. I have protection and others don't. Thats why I repeatedly tell people not to say stupid shit on the phone. Its real easy. You call someone up and say: "I need to talk privately. Meet me at the usual spot."

sure, its not good that the NSA has this ability. But, what if they didn't have it, and terrorists could talk on the phone about smuggling nuclear weapons into our country and detonating them?

there's 2 sides to every coin is all I'm sayin.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinebeatnicknick
The Innovator
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 1,074
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5625489 - 05/13/06 06:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

If you think an every day person would watch what they say on phone why would you think a terrorist, after all this information has been made a huge story, and as careful as they have to be in order to pull something like 9/11 off still discuss they're plans over the phone? Is there another reason they still have this program going?

What worries me is the people that are doing legal things to make change in the government that could be tracked and monitored. Why should they have to keep there stuff private?


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5626045 - 05/13/06 08:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Why does is matter if they are being tracked and watched? As long as they are doing nothing illegal, they should have nothing to worry about.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepsilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 812
Loc: Airstrip One
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: Phred]
    #5627465 - 05/14/06 03:38 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The telcos have no legal obligation to keep that information private.





I was wondering about this, because here in the UK and a lot of other European companies, companies do have a legal requirement to keep personal information private. By personal information I mean any data that be be identified as related to an individual, or help to identify an individual.

The the UK the communication private information relating to individuals is regulated under the Data Protection Act, anyone that has worked in an office should know about the DPA.

Even store cards can't sell the information on you if tick the little box staying you don't want them to.

Of course companies frequently cop-operate with the police or security services when required, the question here is about retention and access. I must add that every time they do it they have a warrant, it is needed by the legal protection of the telco.

Telcos in Europe have recently has to adopt strict data retention policies, strangely you may think, this means making sure data is not held longer that it needs to be, and is erased when no longer required.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: Phred]
    #5627623 - 05/14/06 07:46 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Telephone companies have been required by law to hand over this information whenever asked for decades now. No warrant required. Note that under the law they CANNOT say no.





That's most probably untrue, look how Qwest is the only company which refuses to comply with the government's demand because "carriers that illegally divulge calling information can be subjected to heavy fines. The NSA was asking Qwest to turn over millions of records. "

Just read this part from th article:
"Unable to get comfortable with what NSA was proposing, Qwest's lawyers asked NSA to take its proposal to the FISA court. According to the sources, the agency refused.

The NSA's explanation did little to satisfy Qwest's lawyers. "They told (Qwest) they didn't want to do that because FISA might not agree with them," one person recalled. For similar reasons, this person said, NSA rejected Qwest's suggestion of getting a letter of authorization from the U.S. attorney general's office.



It rather seems that its the NSA that is refusing to comply with the law...


And the constitutionality of this program is very questionable, contrarily to what you would like others to believe.

It gets especially complicated when you see how the three major telecom companies (at&t, verizon and bell) are implicated in this affair. And its rather worrying to see how these three companies have been collaborating with the government without saying anything to their 220 million clients.


Also, I think Bush's security argument to defend his spying programs is losing its credibility. It kinda makes me giggle when he says, "the program works! since 9/11 there hasn't been any terrorist attacks in our country!"


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: exclusive58]
    #5627655 - 05/14/06 08:30 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

exclusive58 writes:

Quote:

That's most probably untrue...




It would be helpful if you were to click the links I provide. The courts -- including the Supreme Court -- have ruled on this long ago. Telephone service providers MUST turn over billing records if requested. They have no option.

Quote:

"Unable to get comfortable with what NSA was proposing, Qwest's lawyers asked NSA to take its proposal to the FISA court. According to the sources, the agency refused.




Of course they refused. FISA has no bearing on this situation whatsoever. This is not a surveillance effort.

Quote:

It rather seems that its the NSA that is refusing to comply with the law...




On the contrary. It is QWest who is refusing to comply with the law.

Quote:

And the constitutionality of this program is very questionable, contrarily to what you would like others to believe.




Bullshit. This was settled decades ago by the Supreme Court. Once the Supremes rule something is consitutional, it is de facto considered constitutional.

Quote:

It gets especially complicated when you see how the three major telecom companies (at&t, verizon and bell) are implicated in this affair.




"Implicated"? LOL! As has been thoroughly explained, they HAD NO CHOICE under existing statute. You can't blame them for following the law.

Quote:

Also, I think Bush's security argument to defend his spying programs is losing its credibility. It kinda makes me giggle when he says, "the program works! since 9/11 there hasn't been any terrorist attacks in our country!"




You giggle at the oddest things. Despite the best efforts of Bush's political enemies to enable terrorists through illegally divulging classified information to the MSM who then gleefully publish it, his statement is correct. And it is indisputable that some plots have been thwarted through information gained through surveillance efforts.



Phred


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLuddite
I watch Fox News
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: Phred]
    #5627664 - 05/14/06 08:36 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

There's some useful information over here: http://forum.protestwarrior.com/viewtopic.php?t=150619


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: Phred]
    #5628242 - 05/14/06 12:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
The courts -- including the Supreme Court -- have ruled on this long ago. Telephone service providers MUST turn over billing records if requested.





source? are you talking about the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists passed right after 9/11?

here's my source that contradicts what you're saying, wikipedia:

"BellSouth Corp and Verizon Telecommunications are now facing lawsuits seeking billions of dollars in damages for illegally turning over personal calling records to the government. The damages amount to over $1,000 per person affected. Consumers can sue their phone service provider under communications privacy legislation that dates back to the 1930s. Relevant laws include the Communications Act, first passed in 1934, and a variety of provisions of the Electronic Communications and Privacy Act, including the Stored Communications Act, passed in 1986.

...

"It has been suggested that President Bush, in authorizing such surveillance, is in violation of the Privacy Act of 1974, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (FISA), and the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution (the Fourth Amendment is part of the Bill of Rights which seeks to guard Americans against unreasonable search and seizure)."


if the legality of these programs is questioned so much, then things are way more complicated than you make them seem.

.

Quote:


On the contrary. It is QWest who is refusing to comply with the law.




If that was the case, Qwest would be penalized by now. The administration isn't the law. They hope they can violate the laws and get away with it. Bush is taking a dangerous path in extending his powers.

Quote:

And it is indisputable that some plots have been thwarted through information gained through surveillance efforts.

Phred




ha! you're cute.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: exclusive58]
    #5628392 - 05/14/06 01:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

source? are you talking about the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists passed right after 9/11?




No. Once again, if you would bother to read the link I provided you would know already that this has nothing to do with FISA or AUMF. This is not a surveillance project but a data-mining one which looks at records of calls made after the fact. This is not "eavesdropping" or "spying" or even (according to the Supreme Court decision) an invasion of privacy. The phone records of Americans have always been available (for decades and decades, at least) to any LEO who takes the trouble to ask. No warrant required. The only thing different about this operation is the scale of it. The applicable legal principle is identical.

Quote:

here's my source that contradicts what you're saying, wikipedia:




Ah, wikipedia. The source where anyone who wants can post an article or alter an existing one. What the wikipedia contributor fails to recognize is that filing a lawsuit means nothing. Anyone can file a lawsuit. Getting a judge to agree not to throw it out as frivolous is something else, and getting the suit settled in your favor is something else again.

Quote:

f the legality of these programs is questioned so much, then things are way more complicated than you make them seem.




Any fool can "question" established case law. That means nothing, and makes them no more "complicated".

Quote:

f that was the case, Qwest would be penalized by now.




Incorrect. The administration may have many reasons for not pushing QWest -- not the least of which would be a desire not to tip their hands to terrorists. Of course, now that the MSM has once again made that reason irrelevant, we may very well see QWest being compelled to follow the law.

There is no point taking this further if you continue to refuse to look at the sources I use to back up my statements. I understand your reluctance to be shown wrong once again, but I don't have to pander to that reluctance. The legal aspects of this have been so thoroughly covered by so many online sources that to continue to argue from ignorance is to demonstrate either monumental stubbornness or sheer laziness. I have no patience with either.



Phred


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: Phred]
    #5628500 - 05/14/06 01:56 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
There is no point taking this further if you continue to refuse to look at the sources I use to back up my statements. I understand your reluctance to be shown wrong once again, but I don't have to pander to that reluctance. The legal aspects of this have been so thoroughly covered by so many online sources that to continue to argue from ignorance is to demonstrate either monumental stubbornness or sheer laziness. I have no patience with either.



Phred




Pure art


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5628507 - 05/14/06 02:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

very abstract...

i'll get back to you later phred


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTheCow
Stranger

Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 4,790
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: Phred]
    #5628538 - 05/14/06 02:15 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
It would be helpful if you were to click the links I provide. The courts -- including the Supreme Court -- have ruled on this long ago. Telephone service providers MUST turn over billing records if requested. They have no option.



Id be curious to see where you got this bit of information. The supreme court case DOES NOT talk about that at all. In fact all it says is that police dont have to issue a warrant to get phone records. So show me this other court case please.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: Redstorm]
    #5628539 - 05/14/06 02:15 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Why does is matter if they are being tracked and watched? As long as they are doing nothing illegal, they should have nothing to worry about.




Gotta agree. :thumbup:


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinebeatnicknick
The Innovator
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 1,074
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: exclusive58]
    #5628557 - 05/14/06 02:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Phred only argues with the legality of the situation, which can be argued forever. That's just like a couple of lawyers fighting of some specific technicallities. I think we should look at the moral issue of this in order to decide.


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinerelativexistance
"beads, bees!?!?beads ....BEADS!!!"
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 1,778
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5629520 - 05/14/06 06:35 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Definitely


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLuddite
I watch Fox News
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: relativexistance]
    #5629605 - 05/14/06 06:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

If the telephone wires belong to the telephone company does it have a legal right to listen in on conversations?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinerelativexistance
"beads, bees!?!?beads ....BEADS!!!"
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 1,778
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: Luddite]
    #5629619 - 05/14/06 07:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I would say no. Look at the current cases on mp3/music copywrite infringement and how they are ruled. However this scenario has more far serious implicating problems also associated with it.


Edited by relativexistance (05/14/06 07:29 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5629825 - 05/14/06 08:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

beatnicknick said:
Phred only argues with the legality of the situation, which can be argued forever. That's just like a couple of lawyers fighting of some specific technicallities. I think we should look at the moral issue of this in order to decide.




fred is not unlike a lawyer - interested in getting lost in technicalities but missing the entire picture - a picture that shows a massive intrusive federal government that is spying on citizens without a warrant. fred also maintains this defense of the abusive-state all the while pretending to be a libertarian.

here's the opinion of a real libertarian: http://www.lp.org/media/article_341.shtml

http://www.lewrockwell.com/tennant/tennant10.html


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5629981 - 05/14/06 08:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

beatnicknick said:
Phred only argues with the legality of the situation, which can be argued forever. That's just like a couple of lawyers fighting of some specific technicallities. I think we should look at the moral issue of this in order to decide.




Morality also brought us lovely things like the war on drugs, sodomy laws, and a ban on gay marriage in many states.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblestantonfreedom
Stranger
Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 27
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: exclusive58]
    #5630160 - 05/14/06 09:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

With this new wiretapping I'm finally safe from the terrorists! But now I'm not safe from the government.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5631209 - 05/15/06 02:32 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Phred said:
There is no point taking this further if you continue to refuse to look at the sources I use to back up my statements. I understand your reluctance to be shown wrong once again, but I don't have to pander to that reluctance. The legal aspects of this have been so thoroughly covered by so many online sources that to continue to argue from ignorance is to demonstrate either monumental stubbornness or sheer laziness. I have no patience with either.



Phred




Pure art




Pure ass kissing.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: Redstorm]
    #5631219 - 05/15/06 02:34 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Why does is matter if they are being tracked and watched? As long as they are doing nothing illegal, they should have nothing to worry about.



You don't find t he fact that you are being tracked and watched worrying by itself?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: Alex213]
    #5631408 - 05/15/06 05:09 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

> You don't find the fact that you are being tracked and watched worrying by itself?

It isn't me that is being tracked, but rather it is the phone numbers that have been dialed from my phone.

I haven't decided yet if I should be upset or not, though I am leaning towards the not.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: Phred]
    #5645234 - 05/18/06 05:22 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
It would be helpful if you were to click the links I provide. The courts -- including the Supreme Court -- have ruled on this long ago. Telephone service providers MUST turn over billing records if requested. They have no option.




Dude, do you even read your own sources that you provide? Nowhere does it say in the article that telephone companies MUST provide their records to the government. Here's the most that it says concerning that:

"the Supreme Court has already held (Smith v. Maryland, 1979) that the government can legally collect phone numbers since callers who expect to be billed by their phone company have no "reasonable expectation of privacy" concerning such matters."

So, given your very developped lawyer qualities, would you mine proving to me that Qwest is breaking the law by refusing to give to the NSA their customer's phone records?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5645246 - 05/18/06 05:31 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

beatnicknick said:
Phred only argues with the legality of the situation, which can be argued forever. That's just like a couple of lawyers fighting of some specific technicallities. I think we should look at the moral issue of this in order to decide.




Yes, I agree.

It seems that today in the US, with so many different laws and acts that can be interpreted in different ways, in the absolute, the legality of something is rather determined by the lawyer's ability to convince. That kinda means that money is the law, since the best lawyers are extremely expensive. And i think that the Bush administration has enough money to buy any lawyer they want... This means that legally, it is possible to construct a police state, and IMO what we're seeing here is a blueprint of that...and I'm not saying that I'm positive that this is what's going on, but...think about how glad Stalin or Mussolini would have been if they had such a massive database, they could never even have dreamed of such a thing!

"Never forget that everything Hitler did was legal" - MLK


--------------------


Edited by exclusive58 (05/18/06 05:40 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   PhytoExtractum Kratom Powder for Sale   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* NYT: NSA Spying Broader Than Bush Admitted LearyfanS 701 3 12/24/05 02:29 AM
by Annapurna1
* NSA Web Site Puts 'Cookies' on Computers Catalysis 643 2 12/30/05 06:06 PM
by zappaisgod
* General Hayden on the NSA intercepts
( 1 2 all )
Phred 1,737 20 01/30/06 06:37 PM
by Falcon91Wolvrn03
* Citizens Form Massive Special Disinterest Group EchoVortex 512 1 03/19/04 09:08 AM
by zappaisgod
* Former NSA employee claims NSA doing illegal activities beatnicknick 684 3 05/14/06 07:55 PM
by zappaisgod
* NSA has Myspace and other Social Networking sites in its midst. The_Red_Crayon 861 3 06/15/06 01:32 PM
by Penguarky Tunguin
* ABC News: NSA Whistleblower Alleges Ilegal Spying (and comes "out") Twirling 522 1 01/11/06 04:31 AM
by Seuss
* NSA Not Spying on Schumer Despite Recent Remarks
( 1 2 all )
Phred 2,038 25 01/03/06 03:27 PM
by Phred

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
2,716 topic views. 5 members, 2 guests and 35 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.039 seconds spending 0.01 seconds on 14 queries.