Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   PhytoExtractum Kratom Powder for Sale   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5625405 - 05/13/06 06:03 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

yeah, I know. I have protection and others don't. Thats why I repeatedly tell people not to say stupid shit on the phone. Its real easy. You call someone up and say: "I need to talk privately. Meet me at the usual spot."

sure, its not good that the NSA has this ability. But, what if they didn't have it, and terrorists could talk on the phone about smuggling nuclear weapons into our country and detonating them?

there's 2 sides to every coin is all I'm sayin.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinebeatnicknick
The Innovator
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 1,074
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5625489 - 05/13/06 06:22 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

If you think an every day person would watch what they say on phone why would you think a terrorist, after all this information has been made a huge story, and as careful as they have to be in order to pull something like 9/11 off still discuss they're plans over the phone? Is there another reason they still have this program going?

What worries me is the people that are doing legal things to make change in the government that could be tracked and monitored. Why should they have to keep there stuff private?


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 4 months, 29 days
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5626045 - 05/13/06 08:18 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Why does is matter if they are being tracked and watched? As long as they are doing nothing illegal, they should have nothing to worry about.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepsilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 812
Loc: Airstrip One
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: Phred]
    #5627465 - 05/14/06 03:38 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The telcos have no legal obligation to keep that information private.





I was wondering about this, because here in the UK and a lot of other European companies, companies do have a legal requirement to keep personal information private. By personal information I mean any data that be be identified as related to an individual, or help to identify an individual.

The the UK the communication private information relating to individuals is regulated under the Data Protection Act, anyone that has worked in an office should know about the DPA.

Even store cards can't sell the information on you if tick the little box staying you don't want them to.

Of course companies frequently cop-operate with the police or security services when required, the question here is about retention and access. I must add that every time they do it they have a warrant, it is needed by the legal protection of the telco.

Telcos in Europe have recently has to adopt strict data retention policies, strangely you may think, this means making sure data is not held longer that it needs to be, and is erased when no longer required.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
Last seen: 6 years, 11 days
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: Phred]
    #5627623 - 05/14/06 07:46 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Telephone companies have been required by law to hand over this information whenever asked for decades now. No warrant required. Note that under the law they CANNOT say no.





That's most probably untrue, look how Qwest is the only company which refuses to comply with the government's demand because "carriers that illegally divulge calling information can be subjected to heavy fines. The NSA was asking Qwest to turn over millions of records. "

Just read this part from th article:
"Unable to get comfortable with what NSA was proposing, Qwest's lawyers asked NSA to take its proposal to the FISA court. According to the sources, the agency refused.

The NSA's explanation did little to satisfy Qwest's lawyers. "They told (Qwest) they didn't want to do that because FISA might not agree with them," one person recalled. For similar reasons, this person said, NSA rejected Qwest's suggestion of getting a letter of authorization from the U.S. attorney general's office.



It rather seems that its the NSA that is refusing to comply with the law...


And the constitutionality of this program is very questionable, contrarily to what you would like others to believe.

It gets especially complicated when you see how the three major telecom companies (at&t, verizon and bell) are implicated in this affair. And its rather worrying to see how these three companies have been collaborating with the government without saying anything to their 220 million clients.


Also, I think Bush's security argument to defend his spying programs is losing its credibility. It kinda makes me giggle when he says, "the program works! since 9/11 there hasn't been any terrorist attacks in our country!"


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: exclusive58]
    #5627655 - 05/14/06 08:30 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

exclusive58 writes:

Quote:

That's most probably untrue...




It would be helpful if you were to click the links I provide. The courts -- including the Supreme Court -- have ruled on this long ago. Telephone service providers MUST turn over billing records if requested. They have no option.

Quote:

"Unable to get comfortable with what NSA was proposing, Qwest's lawyers asked NSA to take its proposal to the FISA court. According to the sources, the agency refused.




Of course they refused. FISA has no bearing on this situation whatsoever. This is not a surveillance effort.

Quote:

It rather seems that its the NSA that is refusing to comply with the law...




On the contrary. It is QWest who is refusing to comply with the law.

Quote:

And the constitutionality of this program is very questionable, contrarily to what you would like others to believe.




Bullshit. This was settled decades ago by the Supreme Court. Once the Supremes rule something is consitutional, it is de facto considered constitutional.

Quote:

It gets especially complicated when you see how the three major telecom companies (at&t, verizon and bell) are implicated in this affair.




"Implicated"? LOL! As has been thoroughly explained, they HAD NO CHOICE under existing statute. You can't blame them for following the law.

Quote:

Also, I think Bush's security argument to defend his spying programs is losing its credibility. It kinda makes me giggle when he says, "the program works! since 9/11 there hasn't been any terrorist attacks in our country!"




You giggle at the oddest things. Despite the best efforts of Bush's political enemies to enable terrorists through illegally divulging classified information to the MSM who then gleefully publish it, his statement is correct. And it is indisputable that some plots have been thwarted through information gained through surveillance efforts.



Phred


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLuddite
I watch Fox News
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: Phred]
    #5627664 - 05/14/06 08:36 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

There's some useful information over here: http://forum.protestwarrior.com/viewtopic.php?t=150619

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
Last seen: 6 years, 11 days
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: Phred]
    #5628242 - 05/14/06 12:06 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
The courts -- including the Supreme Court -- have ruled on this long ago. Telephone service providers MUST turn over billing records if requested.





source? are you talking about the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists passed right after 9/11?

here's my source that contradicts what you're saying, wikipedia:

"BellSouth Corp and Verizon Telecommunications are now facing lawsuits seeking billions of dollars in damages for illegally turning over personal calling records to the government. The damages amount to over $1,000 per person affected. Consumers can sue their phone service provider under communications privacy legislation that dates back to the 1930s. Relevant laws include the Communications Act, first passed in 1934, and a variety of provisions of the Electronic Communications and Privacy Act, including the Stored Communications Act, passed in 1986.

...

"It has been suggested that President Bush, in authorizing such surveillance, is in violation of the Privacy Act of 1974, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (FISA), and the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution (the Fourth Amendment is part of the Bill of Rights which seeks to guard Americans against unreasonable search and seizure)."


if the legality of these programs is questioned so much, then things are way more complicated than you make them seem.

.

Quote:


On the contrary. It is QWest who is refusing to comply with the law.




If that was the case, Qwest would be penalized by now. The administration isn't the law. They hope they can violate the laws and get away with it. Bush is taking a dangerous path in extending his powers.

Quote:

And it is indisputable that some plots have been thwarted through information gained through surveillance efforts.

Phred




ha! you're cute.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: exclusive58]
    #5628392 - 05/14/06 01:10 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

source? are you talking about the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists passed right after 9/11?




No. Once again, if you would bother to read the link I provided you would know already that this has nothing to do with FISA or AUMF. This is not a surveillance project but a data-mining one which looks at records of calls made after the fact. This is not "eavesdropping" or "spying" or even (according to the Supreme Court decision) an invasion of privacy. The phone records of Americans have always been available (for decades and decades, at least) to any LEO who takes the trouble to ask. No warrant required. The only thing different about this operation is the scale of it. The applicable legal principle is identical.

Quote:

here's my source that contradicts what you're saying, wikipedia:




Ah, wikipedia. The source where anyone who wants can post an article or alter an existing one. What the wikipedia contributor fails to recognize is that filing a lawsuit means nothing. Anyone can file a lawsuit. Getting a judge to agree not to throw it out as frivolous is something else, and getting the suit settled in your favor is something else again.

Quote:

f the legality of these programs is questioned so much, then things are way more complicated than you make them seem.




Any fool can "question" established case law. That means nothing, and makes them no more "complicated".

Quote:

f that was the case, Qwest would be penalized by now.




Incorrect. The administration may have many reasons for not pushing QWest -- not the least of which would be a desire not to tip their hands to terrorists. Of course, now that the MSM has once again made that reason irrelevant, we may very well see QWest being compelled to follow the law.

There is no point taking this further if you continue to refuse to look at the sources I use to back up my statements. I understand your reluctance to be shown wrong once again, but I don't have to pander to that reluctance. The legal aspects of this have been so thoroughly covered by so many online sources that to continue to argue from ignorance is to demonstrate either monumental stubbornness or sheer laziness. I have no patience with either.



Phred


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: Phred]
    #5628500 - 05/14/06 01:56 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
There is no point taking this further if you continue to refuse to look at the sources I use to back up my statements. I understand your reluctance to be shown wrong once again, but I don't have to pander to that reluctance. The legal aspects of this have been so thoroughly covered by so many online sources that to continue to argue from ignorance is to demonstrate either monumental stubbornness or sheer laziness. I have no patience with either.



Phred




Pure art


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
Last seen: 6 years, 11 days
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5628507 - 05/14/06 02:01 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

very abstract...

i'll get back to you later phred

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTheCow
Stranger

Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 4,790
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: Phred]
    #5628538 - 05/14/06 02:15 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
It would be helpful if you were to click the links I provide. The courts -- including the Supreme Court -- have ruled on this long ago. Telephone service providers MUST turn over billing records if requested. They have no option.



Id be curious to see where you got this bit of information. The supreme court case DOES NOT talk about that at all. In fact all it says is that police dont have to issue a warrant to get phone records. So show me this other court case please.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: Redstorm]
    #5628539 - 05/14/06 02:15 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Why does is matter if they are being tracked and watched? As long as they are doing nothing illegal, they should have nothing to worry about.




Gotta agree. :thumbup:


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinebeatnicknick
The Innovator
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 1,074
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: exclusive58]
    #5628557 - 05/14/06 02:19 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Phred only argues with the legality of the situation, which can be argued forever. That's just like a couple of lawyers fighting of some specific technicallities. I think we should look at the moral issue of this in order to decide.


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinerelativexistance
"beads, bees!?!?beads ....BEADS!!!"
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 1,778
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5629520 - 05/14/06 06:35 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Definitely

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLuddite
I watch Fox News
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: relativexistance]
    #5629605 - 05/14/06 06:59 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

If the telephone wires belong to the telephone company does it have a legal right to listen in on conversations?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinerelativexistance
"beads, bees!?!?beads ....BEADS!!!"
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 1,778
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: Luddite]
    #5629619 - 05/14/06 07:02 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I would say no. Look at the current cases on mp3/music copywrite infringement and how they are ruled. However this scenario has more far serious implicating problems also associated with it.

Edited by relativexistance (05/14/06 07:29 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5629825 - 05/14/06 08:05 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

beatnicknick said:
Phred only argues with the legality of the situation, which can be argued forever. That's just like a couple of lawyers fighting of some specific technicallities. I think we should look at the moral issue of this in order to decide.




fred is not unlike a lawyer - interested in getting lost in technicalities but missing the entire picture - a picture that shows a massive intrusive federal government that is spying on citizens without a warrant. fred also maintains this defense of the abusive-state all the while pretending to be a libertarian.

here's the opinion of a real libertarian: http://www.lp.org/media/article_341.shtml

http://www.lewrockwell.com/tennant/tennant10.html

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 4 months, 29 days
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5629981 - 05/14/06 08:36 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

beatnicknick said:
Phred only argues with the legality of the situation, which can be argued forever. That's just like a couple of lawyers fighting of some specific technicallities. I think we should look at the moral issue of this in order to decide.




Morality also brought us lovely things like the war on drugs, sodomy laws, and a ban on gay marriage in many states.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblestantonfreedom
Stranger
Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 27
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: exclusive58]
    #5630160 - 05/14/06 09:09 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

With this new wiretapping I'm finally safe from the terrorists! But now I'm not safe from the government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   PhytoExtractum Kratom Powder for Sale   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* NYT: NSA Spying Broader Than Bush Admitted LearyfanS 701 3 12/24/05 02:29 AM
by Annapurna1
* NSA Web Site Puts 'Cookies' on Computers Catalysis 643 2 12/30/05 06:06 PM
by zappaisgod
* General Hayden on the NSA intercepts
( 1 2 all )
Phred 1,737 20 01/30/06 06:37 PM
by Falcon91Wolvrn03
* Citizens Form Massive Special Disinterest Group EchoVortex 512 1 03/19/04 09:08 AM
by zappaisgod
* Former NSA employee claims NSA doing illegal activities beatnicknick 684 3 05/14/06 07:55 PM
by zappaisgod
* NSA has Myspace and other Social Networking sites in its midst. The_Red_Crayon 861 3 06/15/06 01:32 PM
by Penguarky Tunguin
* ABC News: NSA Whistleblower Alleges Ilegal Spying (and comes "out") Twirling 522 1 01/11/06 04:31 AM
by Seuss
* NSA Not Spying on Schumer Despite Recent Remarks
( 1 2 all )
Phred 2,039 25 01/03/06 03:27 PM
by Phred

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
2,716 topic views. 1 members, 3 guests and 4 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.037 seconds spending 0.009 seconds on 15 queries.