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Offlineexclusive58
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Registered: 04/16/04
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NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls
    #5623931 - 05/13/06 09:49 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, using data provided by AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, people with direct knowledge of the arrangement told USA TODAY.

The NSA program reaches into homes and businesses across the nation by amassing information about the calls of ordinary Americans — most of whom aren't suspected of any crime. This program does not involve the NSA listening to or recording conversations. But the spy agency is using the data to analyze calling patterns in an effort to detect terrorist activity, sources said in separate interviews.

"It's the largest database ever assembled in the world," said one person, who, like the others who agreed to talk about the NSA's activities, declined to be identified by name or affiliation. The agency's goal is "to create a database of every call ever made" within the nation's borders, this person added.

The three telecommunications companies are working under contract with the NSA, which launched the program in 2001 shortly after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, the sources said. The program is aimed at identifying and tracking suspected terrorists, they said.

The sources would talk only under a guarantee of anonymity because the NSA program is secret.

Air Force Gen. Michael Hayden, nominated Monday by President Bush to become the director of the CIA, headed the NSA from March 1999 to April 2005. In that post, Hayden would have overseen the agency's domestic call-tracking program. Hayden declined to comment about the program.

The NSA's domestic program, as described by sources, is far more expansive than what the White House has acknowledged. Last year, Bush said he had authorized the NSA to eavesdrop — without warrants — on international calls and international e-mails of people suspected of having links to terrorists when one party to the communication is in the USA. Warrants have also not been used in the NSA's efforts to create a national call database.

In defending the previously disclosed program, Bush insisted that the NSA was focused exclusively on international calls. "In other words," Bush explained, "one end of the communication must be outside the United States."

As a result, domestic call records — those of calls that originate and terminate within U.S. borders — were believed to be private.

Sources, however, say that is not the case. With access to records of billions of domestic calls, the NSA has gained a secret window into the communications habits of millions of Americans. Customers' names, street addresses and other personal information are not being handed over as part of NSA's domestic program, the sources said. But the phone numbers the NSA collects can easily be cross-checked with other databases to obtain that information.


CARRIERS UNIQUELY POSITIONED


AT&T recently merged with SBC and kept the AT&T name. Verizon, BellSouth and AT&T are the nation's three biggest telecommunications companies; they provide local and wireless phone service to more than 200 million customers.

The three carriers control vast networks with the latest communications technologies. They provide an array of services: local and long-distance calling, wireless and high-speed broadband, including video. Their direct access to millions of homes and businesses has them uniquely positioned to help the government keep tabs on the calling habits of Americans.

Among the big telecommunications companies, only Qwest has refused to help the NSA, the sources said. According to multiple sources, Qwest declined to participate because it was uneasy about the legal implications of handing over customer information to the government without warrants.

Qwest's refusal to participate has left the NSA with a hole in its database. Based in Denver, Qwest provides local phone service to 14 million customers in 14 states in the West and Northwest. But AT&T and Verizon also provide some services — primarily long-distance and wireless — to people who live in Qwest's region. Therefore, they can provide the NSA with at least some access in that area.

Created by President Truman in 1952, during the Korean War, the NSA is charged with protecting the United States from foreign security threats. The agency was considered so secret that for years the government refused to even confirm its existence. Government insiders used to joke that NSA stood for "No Such Agency."

In 1975, a congressional investigation revealed that the NSA had been intercepting, without warrants, international communications for more than 20 years at the behest of the CIA and other agencies. The spy campaign, code-named "Shamrock," led to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), which was designed to protect Americans from illegal eavesdropping.

The usefulness of the NSA's domestic phone-call database as a counterterrorism tool is unclear. Also unclear is whether the database has been used for other purposes.

In the case of the NSA's international call-tracking program, Bush signed an executive order allowing the NSA to engage in eavesdropping without a warrant. The president and his representatives have since argued that an executive order was sufficient for the agency to proceed. Some civil liberties groups, including the American Civil Liberties Union, disagree.


COMPANIES APPROACHED


The NSA's domestic program began soon after the Sept. 11 attacks, according to the sources. Right around that time, they said, NSA representatives approached the nation's biggest telecommunications companies. The agency made an urgent pitch: National security is at risk, and we need your help to protect the country from attacks.

The agency told the companies that it wanted them to turn over their "call-detail records," a complete listing of the calling histories of their millions of customers. In addition, the NSA wanted the carriers to provide updates, which would enable the agency to keep tabs on the nation's calling habits.

The sources said the NSA made clear that it was willing to pay for the cooperation. AT&T, which at the time was headed by C. Michael Armstrong, agreed to help the NSA. So did BellSouth, headed by F. Duane Ackerman; SBC, headed by Ed Whitacre; and Verizon, headed by Ivan Seidenberg.

With that, the NSA's domestic program began in earnest.


ONE COMPANY DIFFERS


One major telecommunications company declined to participate in the program: Qwest.

According to sources familiar with the events, Qwest's CEO at the time, Joe Nacchio, was deeply troubled by the NSA's assertion that Qwest didn't need a court order — or approval under FISA — to proceed. Adding to the tension, Qwest was unclear about who, exactly, would have access to its customers' information and how that information might be used.

Financial implications were also a concern, the sources said. Carriers that illegally divulge calling information can be subjected to heavy fines. The NSA was asking Qwest to turn over millions of records. The fines, in the aggregate, could have been substantial.

The NSA told Qwest that other government agencies, including the FBI, CIA and DEA, also might have access to the database, the sources said. As a matter of practice, the NSA regularly shares its information — known as "product" in intelligence circles — with other intelligence groups. Even so, Qwest's lawyers were troubled by the expansiveness of the NSA request, the sources said.

The NSA, which needed Qwest's participation to completely cover the country, pushed back hard.

Trying to put pressure on Qwest, NSA representatives pointedly told Qwest that it was the lone holdout among the big telecommunications companies. It also tried appealing to Qwest's patriotic side: In one meeting, an NSA representative suggested that Qwest's refusal to contribute to the database could compromise national security, one person recalled.

In addition, the agency suggested that Qwest's foot-dragging might affect its ability to get future classified work with the government. Like other big telecommunications companies, Qwest already had classified contracts and hoped to get more.

Unable to get comfortable with what NSA was proposing, Qwest's lawyers asked NSA to take its proposal to the FISA court. According to the sources, the agency refused.

The NSA's explanation did little to satisfy Qwest's lawyers. "They told (Qwest) they didn't want to do that because FISA might not agree with them," one person recalled. For similar reasons, this person said, NSA rejected Qwest's suggestion of getting a letter of authorization from the U.S. attorney general's office. A second person confirmed this version of events.

In June 2002, Nacchio resigned amid allegations that he had misled investors about Qwest's financial health. But Qwest's legal questions about the NSA request remained.

Unable to reach agreement, Nacchio's successor, Richard Notebaert, finally pulled the plug on the NSA talks in late 2004, the sources said.





http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm


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InvisibleOJK
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Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: exclusive58]
    #5623951 - 05/13/06 09:54 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

That is a tremendously stupid program.

"Terrorism" is a pathetic excuse for taking details of every telephone call in an entire country.

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Invisiblepsilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 812
Loc: Airstrip One
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: exclusive58]
    #5624055 - 05/13/06 10:16 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Across Europe there are now laws regarding telecoms data retention and allowing access to government agencies with some fucking harsh penalties for none compliance. They were championed by British Home Secretary Charles Clark.

All telcos keep call logs (time/date, caller, destination, duration), it is required for billing. Most cell networks nowadays have a pretty good idea where the caller was too. There are even public services that allow you locate a cell phone on demand.
Now the law requires that these logs retained for some considerable time, 7 years in some cases.

I always find it funny in the films when they try and keep the caller on the line for a trace, if you know the number that was called, the rough time and you ask within a few months, you got your trace.

BTW: I would not be so worried about the government, your phone records are probably up for sale anyway.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-privacy05.html

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: exclusive58]
    #5624059 - 05/13/06 10:17 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

it's time for us all to realize that modern telecommunication is the greatest surveillance tool that has ever existed. to think it can actually be made any other way, either by legislation or private contracts, is naive. the government isn't going to stop this. the industry won't either. it works because most people are completely illiterate when it comes to technology and don't make efforts to protect their privacy.

you can take control. learn how to use encryption. it's not hard. consider ditching proprietary software, which will soon be coming with all kinds of privacy-violating DRM goodies. you can use anonymizing proxy networks like tor. the technology is out there. if you want privacy in the 21st century, learn it and use it. protect yourself.


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InvisibleOJK
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Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: wilshire]
    #5624084 - 05/13/06 10:23 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

The problem with that model of privacy is that once electronic surveillance is common place, and everybody is used to the idea of all telecommunications being logged and monitored, it's a lot easier for the government to outlaw software that bypassing the monitoring (encryption software, proxy services, etc.)

After all, it's only a very small minority of people that use them, and why don't they want the government to monitor their communications like everybody else? What have the got to hide? They're probably all terrorists/communists/whatever-pathetic-scape-goat-the-government-happens-to-be-using-at-the-time

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
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Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: exclusive58]
    #5624118 - 05/13/06 10:30 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Man...this shit freaks me out.

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Invisiblepsilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 812
Loc: Airstrip One
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: wilshire]
    #5624167 - 05/13/06 10:45 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

:thumbup:

Indeed, telecoms is just source (a major one) of the digital fingerprints we leave as we go through our lives.

Tracked from our pocket by our phone, by the cards in our wallet, by the number plate on our cars, by the cameras on the street and by the microchips in our clothing and the items we buy (RFID).

I fear a future where mass surveillance is used by governments and business. It will inevitably subvert our democracy and cost us our freedoms.

Government through surveillance and the media will be able manipulate political discussion, stifle thought before it becomes a problem and keep their own propaganda machines finely tuned. 

Business has to compete by offering us consumers choice, imagine a world where the chips in your shoes talk to chips in every product in your house and chips in the clothing of people you meet. Then report this wealth of information back when you go to the supermarket.
Armed with this data companies can save a fortune on product development and marketing. They know what you will and won't buy and where you bought it already, so why take a risk on something new.

People knowing every action is monitored will be more conformist.

Mass surveillance threatens the very soul of humanity.

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Invisiblepsilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 812
Loc: Airstrip One
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: OJK]
    #5624185 - 05/13/06 10:51 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Encryption in a sea of unencrypted data sticks out like a sore thumb.

Encryption may not end up being a crime, but will constitute probable cause on its own, using it could cause you a lot trouble.

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OfflinegrimR
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Registered: 03/29/06
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Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: psilomonkey]
    #5624186 - 05/13/06 10:52 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

originally encryption carried export laws for us citizens. I guess they lost control of that. I'm sure with their large databases and sniffing off the very lines of the communications of their citizens, they will bring back encryption restrictions.


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- grimR


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
http://egolost.com 
"I am already given to the power that rules my fate. And I cling to nothing, so I will have nothing to defend. I have no thoughts, so I will see. I fear nothing, so I will remember myself."

- Don Juan teachings

Edited by grimR (05/13/06 10:55 AM)

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Invisiblebukkake
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Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: exclusive58]
    #5624231 - 05/13/06 11:07 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Mass surveillance and spying on Americans and not a peep from the American population. Most even support it!

I guess you need a dollar menu or a Big Mac to get their attention.

Note that totalitarianism is largely a movement of the twentieth century because of the evolution of technology, much like these capabilities.

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Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
Last seen: 6 years, 11 days
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: wilshire]
    #5624234 - 05/13/06 11:08 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:

you can take control. learn how to use encryption. it's not hard. consider ditching proprietary software, which will soon be coming with all kinds of privacy-violating DRM goodies. you can use anonymizing proxy networks like tor. the technology is out there. if you want privacy in the 21st century, learn it and use it. protect yourself.




Ya, or you can just subscribe to the Qwest telephone company. Seems like they're the only company which hasn't accepted to be bribed by the government, and is actually asking questions about the legal issues involved in NSA's wiretapping programs. All other companies aren't asking questions at all, they're just taking the money, and giving the info. Its a matter of national security!  :rolleyes:


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Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
Last seen: 6 years, 11 days
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: psilomonkey]
    #5624256 - 05/13/06 11:17 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

psilomonkey said:


People knowing every action is monitored will be more conformist.

Mass surveillance threatens the very soul of humanity.




:thumbup:


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: exclusive58]
    #5624658 - 05/13/06 01:25 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Theres a professor here who does some research with facial recognition technology. They are getting really good at it let me tell you, it is quite accurate. I was going to do research for him because hes one of the most famous image processing/computer vision researchers in the US, but I just morally couldn't do it. Theres no way I can contribute to this shit. Fuck

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OfflinePhred
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Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: exclusive58]
    #5625196 - 05/13/06 04:35 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Sigh. More hysterical nonsense over old news.

Read this article and chill out. http://www.opinionjournal.com/weekend/hottopic/?id=110008376




Phred


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InvisibleGijith
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Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: bukkake]
    #5625226 - 05/13/06 04:53 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I can understand the complacency. This program will not be shut down for as long as we're still using phones. No chance.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: exclusive58]
    #5625227 - 05/13/06 04:53 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

still waiting for the NSA to nail me to a cross for all the illegal shit I've done over the phone. 

go ahead punks.  make my day. 

:lol:

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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5625313 - 05/13/06 05:32 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
still waiting for the NSA to nail me to a cross for all the illegal shit I've done over the phone. 

go ahead punks.  make my day. 

:lol:




I know, I know, you think this whole thing is about your personal life and people are overreacting, and that's understandable, what's the government going to do about something you said over the phone?  However, you can't let this distract you from the seriousness of the situation, they are monitoring everything and this is a stab at our civil liberties.  When rebellion groups arise, there forms of communication are monitored, they can be deemed "terrorists" and shut down.  So what happens when they take a deeper stab at our freedoms? How do we defend ourselves when they have that kind of control? How can our civil liberties be preserved?

The internet will soon be under regulation of the government.  It's happening right now. When this program, known as "net neutrallity" begins, all forms of media and mass communication will be regulated by the government.  When they control all flow of information, they control what we believe.

This is not what our forefathers stood for. This is not the America we know and love.  We must free and allowed to rebel against tyranny, or tyranny will rule.


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I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.

Edited by beatnicknick (05/13/06 05:34 PM)

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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: Phred]
    #5625324 - 05/13/06 05:36 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Sigh. More hysterical nonsense over old news.

Read this article and chill out. http://www.opinionjournal.com/weekend/hottopic/?id=110008376




Phred




Phred, do you care about America at all? Why would you rather try and kill the hype instead of investigating it and understand why its such a serious problem?


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I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.

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InvisibleOJK
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Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: Phred]
    #5625327 - 05/13/06 05:37 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Phred, you find the reaction to this program "hysterical"?

You don't find it a little odd that the state is attempting to assemble a register of every call made by american citizens suspected of no crime?

You don't the precedent of the gathering of personal information by federal authorities without a warrant worrying?

How, exactly, could this program possibly be used to fight terrorism without invading the privacy of millions of Americans?

Do you have no problem with being investigated by federal government because a terrorist suspect makes a phone call to someone who makes a phone call to you?

I to some extent understand supporting this program, but calling opposition to it "hysterical" is propagandist nonsense.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: NSA has massive database of Americans' phonecalls [Re: OJK]
    #5625398 - 05/13/06 06:01 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred, you find the reaction to this program "hysterical"?




I find the MSM's deliberate spin on it to be hysterical, yes. Dishonest, too.

Quote:

You don't find it a little odd that the state is attempting to assemble a register of every call made by american citizens suspected of no crime?




Not in the slightest. It's the least intrusive way I can think of for gathering information which may expose the next terrorist cell operating out of the US.

Quote:

You don't the precedent of the gathering of personal information by federal authorities without a warrant worrying?




No, for two reasons:

One -- it doesn't set a "precedent". This is absolutely nothing new. Telephone companies have been required by law to hand over this information whenever asked for decades now. No warrant required. Note that under the law they CANNOT say no. The only difference with this program is the scale, but that has no bearing on the legal aspects. It's perfectly legal and has been for decades.

Two -- telcos routinely make this information available to both their own marketing people and to other businesses. I'd much rather have the history of who I called and when sit unnoticed in a NSA database than be actively perused by annoying telemarketers.

Quote:

How, exactly, could this program possibly be used to fight terrorism without invading the privacy of millions of Americans?




Your definition of "invading the privacy" of millions of Americans differs from that of the Supreme Court. If you use the equipment of a phone company and pay them for it, the Supreme Court has ruled you have no reasonable expectation of privacy regarding who you called. The telcos have no legal obligation to keep that information private.

Quote:

Do you have no problem with being investigated by federal government because a terrorist suspect makes a phone call to someone who makes a phone call to you?




None whatsoever. I'd welcome it -- it would show that for once the government is actually doing something they are SUPPOSED to do rather than pissing away my tax dollars on pork barrel projects.

Quote:

I to some extent understand supporting this program, but calling opposition to it "hysterical" is propagandist nonsense.




No, what is propagandist nonsense is presenting it in as dishonest a manner as possible, as USA Today did. Their carefully phrased spin on it was deliberate -- no one misrepresents things to that extent by accident. Fortunately, the vast majority of Americans see through their crap. Quick polls taken immediately after the story was run show two out of three have no problem with the program. I doubt very much you'll see those numbers change with further polls.

Further, for USA Today to rehash this know -- just when General Hayden has been announced as replacement for Porter Goss -- is a transparently lame attempt to drum up "new" "controversy" about the NSA, which Hayden headed up for years. When I said the story was old news, I meant it -- the New York Times ran the same story last December, with the same lack of public outrage.




Phred


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