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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
~29%~...
    #5621098 - 05/12/06 12:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

and thats the wall street journal too..phred..not alex jones...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (05/12/06 04:44 PM)


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Offlinebarfightlard
tales of theinexpressible
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Re: ~29%~... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5621111 - 05/12/06 12:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

page not found


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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InvisibleAdden
I'm a teapot
Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 39,201
Loc: Flag
Re: ~29%~... [Re: barfightlard]
    #5621184 - 05/12/06 12:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060512/pl_...HNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

Quote:

Bush is closing in on the unpopularity level of President Richard Nixon (24 percent) at the moment of his resignation in 1974 over the Watergate scandal, LOL!




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InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: ~29%~... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5621228 - 05/12/06 12:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

:lol: bush sucks


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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Re: ~29%~... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5621254 - 05/12/06 01:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Fuck!!! with these numbers he could be out of office by early 2009.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflineSlooch
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Re: ~29%~... [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5621291 - 05/12/06 01:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Or how bout later this year or even NOW! IMPEACH THE FUCKER!

GET HIM OUT!

Seriously I have never in my life (I'm still young) seen a president act like he does. The man sands in front of people as the leader of the USA and he CONSTANTLY makes stupid fucking jokes in his speeches. Are you a leader or a fucking comedian? We need a LEADER now in these times that we go through not some one who laughs and smirks all the time.

GERRRRRR! I JUST WISH SOME ONE WOULD SHOUT OUT "SHUT THE FUCK UP BUSH WE DON'T WANT TO LAUGH WE WANT A STRONG SERIOUS PRESIDENT. STOP YOUR HAPPY SMIRKING AND SHUT THE FUCK UP!"


--------------------
Hey Just take some time and look at this pic here, below... Its a Smile Face ON THE CAP! WHAT ARE THE CHANCES? AND THE OTHER AN 8???!!!! IS this a SIGN?



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Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
Male

Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
Re: ~29%~... [Re: Slooch]
    #5621348 - 05/12/06 01:56 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Bush is probably the worst President in our nation's history.

And he has three years of suckiness left to go.. :sad:


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: ~29%~... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5621599 - 05/12/06 03:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I don't understand what the appeal is about these polls. Everyone knows that he is viewed poorly by the large majority of poll-takers, and it's not as if another poll is going to change anything. It's starting to get very repetitive.


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OfflineEquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
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Re: ~29%~... [Re: Redstorm]
    #5621661 - 05/12/06 03:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

He was also viewed negatively by those poll takers when he was doing well in the polls was he not? Did they just suddenly change their minds about him?


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HELP!!!!!!!!!


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Invisibledownforpot
Stranger
Male
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
Re: ~29%~... [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5621838 - 05/12/06 04:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I feel sorry for the guy. If he was my age we'd prolly be getting shitfaced. He is a good guy but a shitty leader.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: ~29%~... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5621840 - 05/12/06 04:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

the article is also available below ..
http://fairuse.100webcustomers.com/sf/WSJ5_12_6.htm


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OfflineArcofaJourney
Internaltransportationdevice
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Registered: 10/05/05
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Re: ~29%~... [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5623078 - 05/12/06 10:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

EquilibriuM said:
He was also viewed negatively by those poll takers when he was doing well in the polls was he not? Did they just suddenly change their minds about him?




AH HAHA!!! Busted !!!


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: ~29%~... [Re: Redstorm]
    #5623119 - 05/12/06 10:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

:thumbup:

Statistics are correct 70% of the time..........


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineEquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
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Re: ~29%~... [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5623175 - 05/12/06 10:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

they've done studies you know... 60% of the time it works - EVERY TIME.


--------------------
HELP!!!!!!!!!


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Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
Male

Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
Re: ~29%~... [Re: downforpot]
    #5623742 - 05/13/06 02:57 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The Bush admin has SOOOO squandered the goodwill generated from 9/11..we had the world in the palm of our hand and they just HAD to do the 15 year old kick-ass bit to feel macho. These are adults??

You know normally when everyone is against you when they had been FOR you just prior some action of yours, you tend to pause.. and ask yourself "Hmmm. Maybe. Maybe.. just maybe something I did is wrong."

Not these boys lol. It's FULL STEAM AHEAD for the waterfall babee!!

Unfortunately we are all on that boat.

Or is it a train?

It brings to mind a poem quoted by Winston Churchill prior to WWII:


Who is in charge of the clattering train?

The axles creak and the couplings strain;

And the pace is hot, and the points are near,

And sleep has deadened the driver’s ear;
And the signals flash through the night in vain,

For Death is in charge of the clattering
train.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: ~29%~... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5623758 - 05/13/06 03:20 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The sad/funny part is that Bush doesn't care. He has already stated that the American public is fickle and that he doesn't listen to opinion polls. So much for representing the people. Does anybody else think he can make it into the teens?


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: ~29%~... [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5624287 - 05/13/06 11:29 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

EquilibriuM said:
He was also viewed negatively by those poll takers when he was doing well in the polls was he not? Did they just suddenly change their minds about him?




That first sentence doesn't make any sense to me. How can he be viewed negatively in the polls and yet do well in them?

Don't get me wrong; I'm no fan. I just don't know what the importance of these polls are. They're not going to lead to anything. Everyone knows people don't like him. Why is it necessary to hear this crap over and over?


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OfflineEquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
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Re: ~29%~... [Re: Redstorm]
    #5624344 - 05/13/06 11:50 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I may have misinterpreted your previous statement. I assumed by "poll takers," You meant those conducting the polls and were inferring that they were biased.


--------------------
HELP!!!!!!!!!


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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: ~29%~... [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5624369 - 05/13/06 11:54 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I finally remembered what I was trying to get at when I first read the original post. I don't know if it's just me, but I see a news story about this almost every week. The first couple stories I read about this, I paid attention and read the whole article. Now, when I see another one of these poll stories, I just am bored and pass over them. It seems like they are cheapening these stories by flodding the media with them. I don't think there's a need to make a new story every time the poll results go down by 1%. Just my $.02, though.


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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: ~29%~... [Re: zorbman]
    #5624991 - 05/13/06 03:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Bush is probably the worst President in our nation's history.

And he has three years of suckiness left to go.. :sad:




People don't understand the scope of the situation. It's not his suckiness. It's not that his decisions were "bad" We're in a whole different Era here in America, the Era Bush started, where propaganda rule and civil liberties are a thing of the past. We as a nation are going down a road of silence, we should currently be OUTRAGED and fighting fiercly to protect our civil liberties.  His decisions were not "bad", for him. He has profitted from death, he has waged a propaganda campaign in America, tricking us into thinking the "freedom killing" terrorists justify his freedom killing.  Who's the real terrorist? He is connected to all the billionare corporations, he has a vice grip on the balls of America, and he thinks that America will never swing back into the spirit of resistance we once had, in fact no more than 30, 40 years ago it rose again.  This resistance is what made us such and great country and in turn made a better world, as we became the backbone for it.

Now big corporations want to own the internet. When this happens, the propaganda campaign will flourish to its fullest and the people will truley be screwed.  The net has saved our asses in this era, where people stay in doors with there electronics and never discuss politics in public.  It lets the independents speak there mind, it connects all of America without the control and regulation of big business, it lets us rally and organise since we no longer do so in public.

If you haven't had a wake up call, let the begining of net neutrallity be that wake up call. A movement is long overdue, and the tyrants must be kicked in the ass or they will continue to take away more freedoms. The first step is awareness, you have to forgive and pacify those that have never learned about what is going on and then teach them.  You have to spread the word to everybody, and if you feel like being a leader of this movement you have to write motivational speeches and you have to organise and brainstorm. You have to devise creative ways to get peoples attention, and more importantly the free media's.  Once the majority has been informed and is fully aware of the situation, then and only then can change happen.

Seriously, this is the very begining of the end if the American people remain quiet. It is up to us to allow the future generations of Americans the freedoms we have. It's not about right wing/left wing, that is only a distraction from what's really going on. Don't let your political beliefs for America get in the way of protecting our freedoms, we wont let the news do that to us.  And what kind of smearing can a big corporation like Fox News do if the target for that smearing has to be all of America? Nothing. People this is not a time for debate of petty policies and small differences in values that democrats and republicans, it is time that something is done, that some big resistance overcomes this country and renews our democracy. It is time we unite.  United we stand, and divided we fall.

EDIT: I realise not everyone has heard of net neutrallity, here are a couple good informative pieces on it.

http://www.coanews.org/netfreedom

http://www.dontregulate.org/



--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.


Edited by beatnicknick (05/13/06 03:26 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: ~29%~... [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5625054 - 05/13/06 03:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

:tinfoil:


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Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
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Registered: 06/04/04
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Re: ~29%~... [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5626410 - 05/13/06 09:30 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Seriously, this is the very begining of the end if the American people remain quiet.

A quote attributed to Alexander Tyler (identified as a Scottish history professor at The University of Edinborough) speaking of
the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years prior may be in order here:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. [Bread and circuses]. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."

Please take note of a chart of the US dollar index for a bellweather:



"The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From Bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence back into bondage."

Where in the cycle above do you think we are today?


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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OfflineDieSpectra
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Registered: 05/08/06
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Re: ~29%~... [Re: zorbman]
    #5626469 - 05/13/06 09:39 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Fuck the privatly run for profit Federal Reserve!  :frown:

I'd say most of the population is in the complacency to apathy stage, with some in the dependence stage


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OfflinegrimR
hippiousmaximous
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Re: ~29%~... [Re: DieSpectra]
    #5626763 - 05/13/06 10:48 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

are you telling me you don't find comfort in this man leading your country into armagedon?




some people say not to judge people by their looks, well I find this an exception


--------------------
- grimR


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
http://egolost.com 
"I am already given to the power that rules my fate. And I cling to nothing, so I will have nothing to defend. I have no thoughts, so I will see. I fear nothing, so I will remember myself."

- Don Juan teachings


Edited by grimR (05/13/06 10:51 PM)


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Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
Male

Registered: 06/04/04
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Re: ~29%~... [Re: DieSpectra]
    #5627402 - 05/14/06 02:49 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I'd say most of the population is in the complacency to apathy stage, with some in the dependence stage


How I wish that were true, my friend.

In my opinion we are well underway between dependence and bondage.

The best example of that is that as a nation we are utterly dependent upon foreign nations to service our debt. If they pull the rug out, our economy and thus military dominance will follow. If that doesn't represent dependency I don't know what does.

Also, as an oil importer we are at the mercy of nations who don't like us with our armies already stretched thin due to current commitments. Oil will be used more and more as a weapon in the future, and that has already begun now that the gap between supply and demand has continued to narrow.

I must confess, I don't like what this portends. But it doesn't stop me from confronting the sad truth: America's days are numbered.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: ~29%~... [Re: zorbman]
    #5630214 - 05/14/06 09:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Fortunately their are alternatives to crude oil such as liquified petroleum and coal. Both may polute more and be less affordable but they are at least temporary solutions to a problem.


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Invisibledownforpot
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Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
Re: ~29%~... [Re: newuser1492]
    #5630275 - 05/14/06 09:34 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

cb9fl said:
Fortunately their are alternatives to crude oil such as liquified petroleum and coal. Both may polute more and be less affordable but they are at least temporary solutions to a problem.




If you think that way then OIL IS ALSO A TEMPORARY SOLUTION to a our energy problem. The fact still remains that Brazil will energy independent in a year and the price of oil will have less effect on its economy, inflation, etc.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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Offlineguri
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Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 576
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Re: ~29%~... [Re: downforpot]
    #5631029 - 05/15/06 01:12 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

one positive of the constant posting of low polls is it shows some die hard republicans that thier president can do the wrong thing (i know a friend until recently would stand by bush in every decision). also ive noticed latley more republican senators are not as afraid of not supporting the president blindly as they used to be. do you think two years ago they would oppose him on issues as some of them do today?


--------------------
"If you don't believe drugs have done good things for us, then go home and burn all your records, all your tapes, and all your CDs because every one of those artists who have made brilliant music and enhanced your lives? The Beatles were so fucking high, they let Ringo sing a few songs." --Bill Hicks


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: ~29%~... [Re: zorbman]
    #5635176 - 05/15/06 09:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.




Exactly, and that began a long time ago with the "New Deal". Once it starts, it is impossible to reverse.


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InvisibleTheDude
is waiting forthe peak

Registered: 04/15/03
Posts: 2,876
Re: ~29%~... [Re: newuser1492]
    #5661355 - 05/22/06 07:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

cb9fl said:
Fortunately their are alternatives to crude oil such as liquified petroleum and coal. Both may polute more and be less affordable but they are at least temporary solutions to a problem.




Coal is no solution to the problem posed by the dwindling supply of fossil fuels. We use oil to mine coal so its inevitable scarcity will affect the EROEI (energy return on energy invested) of coal. If we change the infrastructure to utilize energy derived entirely from coal then increased pollution and damage to the environment is inevitable.

Not to mention the fact that only a small percentage of the world's coal resources lie relatively close to the surface. As these easily accessible reserves are depleted the process of recovering coal will become more intensive and will require more energy to sustain. Estimates state that by 2040 the EROEI for coal will slide to .5 which means twice as much energy would be expanded in coal production than would be yielded to do useful work.

Coal is not the answer. Shale oil is not the answer. Nuclear and all the other alternatives combined are not feasible to sustain our current way of life. The infrastructure is not there and it takes years to develop and implement new sources of energy. The explosion in population that has occurred during the last 200 years is closely linked to the benefits provided by fossil fuels. When the fuel runs out it will no longer be possible to sustain the current population's demand for even the most basic agricultural commodities which are highly dependent on oil for global transport and fertilizer/pesticide production. All aspects of industrial society are dependent on a finite resource that may have already passed its peak supply.

Unchecked population grow has been modern civilization's greatest pitfall. It is about to bite us in the ass big time.


--------------------
"this lebowski he called himself 'the dude'. now, 'dude', that's a name no one would self-apply where i come from but there was a lot about the dude that didn't make sense to me...."--the Stranger


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Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
Male

Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
Re: ~29%~... [Re: TheDude]
    #5662517 - 05/23/06 12:05 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Can you say "crash"?


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: ~29%~... [Re: TheDude]
    #5665169 - 05/23/06 03:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

TheDude said:
Quote:

cb9fl said:
Fortunately their are alternatives to crude oil such as liquified petroleum and coal. Both may polute more and be less affordable but they are at least temporary solutions to a problem.




Coal is no solution to the problem posed by the dwindling supply of fossil fuels. We use oil to mine coal so its inevitable scarcity will affect the EROEI (energy return on energy invested) of coal. If we change the infrastructure to utilize energy derived entirely from coal then increased pollution and damage to the environment is inevitable.

Not to mention the fact that only a small percentage of the world's coal resources lie relatively close to the surface. As these easily accessible reserves are depleted the process of recovering coal will become more intensive and will require more energy to sustain. Estimates state that by 2040 the EROEI for coal will slide to .5 which means twice as much energy would be expanded in coal production than would be yielded to do useful work.

Coal is not the answer. Shale oil is not the answer. Nuclear and all the other alternatives combined are not feasible to sustain our current way of life. The infrastructure is not there and it takes years to develop and implement new sources of energy. The explosion in population that has occurred during the last 200 years is closely linked to the benefits provided by fossil fuels. When the fuel runs out it will no longer be possible to sustain the current population's demand for even the most basic agricultural commodities which are highly dependent on oil for global transport and fertilizer/pesticide production. All aspects of industrial society are dependent on a finite resource that may have already passed its peak supply.

Unchecked population grow has been modern civilization's greatest pitfall. It is about to bite us in the ass big time.




Coal is a fossil fuel. It can also be turned into petroleum although that is not yet cost effective. Oil shale is not mined because it is not yet cost effective. There is a whole hell of a lot of both of them

http://www.americanenergyindependence.com/nationalsecurity.html

"The USA has an abundance of natural resources that can replace imported crude oil:

The United States has an estimated 270 billion tons of recoverable coal in existing mines, equivalent to three or four times as much energy in coal as Saudi Arabia has in oil. That's only the coal in existing mines. If you consider total recoverable reserves, the U.S. has nearly 500 billion tons of coal. And, if anyone thinks the USA may run out of coal soon, consider the North American oil shale deposits are far greater than American coal deposits. American oil shale is estimated to hold over 1 trillion barrels of oil."

Where do you get this nonsense? And just what does this mean?
"Estimates state that by 2040 the EROEI for coal will slide to .5 which means twice as much energy would be expanded in coal production than would be yielded to do useful work."

What does it mean "useful work"?

Blah blah blah, the sky is falling. "Mommy, I'm scared."


--------------------


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Offlinevintage_gonzo
Stranger

Registered: 04/08/06
Posts: 457
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
Re: ~29%~... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5666463 - 05/23/06 08:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

i have read otherwise zappa. i dont know who is right but this site says differently. http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net
"What About Synthetic Oil From Coal?"





Coal can be used to make synthetic oil via a process known as gasification. Unfortunately, synthetic oil will be unable to do all that much to soften the coming energy crash for the following reasons:



I. Insufficiency of Supply/"Peak Coal":



The coal supply is not as great as many assume. According to a July 2004 article published by the American Institute of Physics:



If demand remains frozen at the current rate of

consumption, the coal reserve will indeed last roughly 250

years. That prediction assumes equal use of all grades of

coal, from anthracite to lignite. Population growth alone

reduces the calculated lifetime to some 90−120 years. Any

new uses of coal would further reduce the supply. . . .The

use of coal for conversion to other fuels would quickly

reduce the lifetime of the US coal base to less than a human

lifespan.



Even a 50-75 year supply of coal is not as much as it sounds because coal production, like oil production, will peak long before the total supply is exhausted. Were we to liquefy a large portion of our coal endowment in order to produce synthetic oil, coal production would likely peak within 2 decades.


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InvisibleTheDude
is waiting forthe peak

Registered: 04/15/03
Posts: 2,876
Re: ~29%~... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5666691 - 05/23/06 09:53 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Coal is a fossil fuel. It can also be turned into petroleum although that is not yet cost effective. Oil shale is not mined because it is not yet cost effective. There is a whole hell of a lot of both of them





I've already covered why coal is not feasible, and shale oil does not come close as an energy source. The process involves mining ore, transporting it, heating it, adding hydrogen and disposing the waste which is a ground-water pollution hazard and is of much greater volume than the ore used at the beginning of the process. Not to mention the need for fresh water (an even more precious resource) in the processing facilities.

Tar sands won't help either. In order to replace oil and supply the global demand (lets say 70 million b/d) we would need about 700 more plants due to the low net-energy figures of oil sands. The amount of waste produced by these plants would have a detrimental effect to the environment. It is foolish to think these would make up for the decline in the global production of oil.


Quote:

"The USA has an abundance of natural resources that can replace imported crude oil:

The United States has an estimated 270 billion tons of recoverable coal in existing mines, equivalent to three or four times as much energy in coal as Saudi Arabia has in oil. That's only the coal in existing mines. If you consider total recoverable reserves, the U.S. has nearly 500 billion tons of coal. And, if anyone thinks the USA may run out of coal soon, consider the North American oil shale deposits are far greater than American coal deposits. American oil shale is estimated to hold over 1 trillion barrels of oil."




All this blurb points out is that we have a lot of coal in the ground. That's great, guess what? We also have a lot of oil still left in the ground but the problem is the EROEI is too low to make accessing the supply a worthwhile venture. We use oil in the process of mining and transporting coal so as the price of oil goes up it will inevitably affect coal as well. I'm done repeating myself though.


Quote:

Where do you get this nonsense?




This "nonsense" comes from two books "Beyond Oil" by John Gever and "The Party's Over" by Richard Heinberg. I appreciate you taking a condescending tone from the get-go, very conducive to conversation.


Quote:

And just what does this mean?
"Estimates state that by 2040 the EROEI for coal will slide to .5 which means twice as much energy would be expanded in coal production than would be yielded to do useful work."

What does it mean "useful work"?




"Useful work" refers to all the work we currently need energy to do (namely electricity since the majority of coal is used to generate electricity in the US). This basically states that by 2040, 1 unit of energy acquired from coal will require an expenditure of 2 units of energy to harness. That is a net-energy loss! That will not sustain the increasing energy demands required to support modern industrial societies.


Quote:

Blah blah blah, the sky is falling. "Mommy, I'm scared."




More mockery, how nice...


--------------------
"this lebowski he called himself 'the dude'. now, 'dude', that's a name no one would self-apply where i come from but there was a lot about the dude that didn't make sense to me...."--the Stranger


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: ~29%~... [Re: TheDude]
    #5669241 - 05/24/06 03:52 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I call bullshit on basicly everything in your post. The idea that it will take twice as much energy to extract coal as it will produce in 2040 is absurd.

"Beyond Oil"..... "Between the years 1995 and 2005 the US will reach the point of being unable to search for domestic oil economically, although we may still persist in doing so for the agricultural sector, making it even more heavily subsidized than it is now. This type of "uneconomic" oil production by richly endowed, low-cost foreign producers and exporters is expected to begin around 2040. As a result, the US GNP per capita is predicted to slide starting in the 1990s, coinciding with the passing of the era of inexpensive oil."
There's some world class bullshit from a 20 year old book. Unlike you I will post a link.
http://dieoff.org/page20.htm
The other one, "The Party's Over", doesn't seem quite as ludicrous, although I have not read it. No wait, from the synopsis he seems to be positing that discovery peaked in the '50s. To which I reply, big fucking deal, we had just figured out how to look for it and found a lot. Decades worth. We keep finding more. As to your ridiculous assertions vis a vis coal and oil shale I look forward to your immensely informative and specific links. It should be excellent reading.

I've listened to chicken little nitwits all my life and they are never right. Ever. Most of your bullshit seems to come from the Beyond Oil book which is 20 years old and already shown to be nonsense


--------------------


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Offlinevintage_gonzo
Stranger

Registered: 04/08/06
Posts: 457
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
Re: ~29%~... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5669559 - 05/24/06 05:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

what about my quote with my link?


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: ~29%~... [Re: vintage_gonzo]
    #5669729 - 05/24/06 06:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

More Chicken Little bullshit, in my opinion. We need to figure out fusion. That has always been the case. But we are not going to implode any time soon.


--------------------


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InvisibleTheDude
is waiting forthe peak

Registered: 04/15/03
Posts: 2,876
Re: ~29%~... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5670396 - 05/24/06 09:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I call bullshit on basicly everything in your post.  The idea that it will take twice as much energy to extract coal as it will produce in 2040 is absurd.




And your source to back that up is...


Quote:

"Beyond Oil"..... "Between the years 1995 and 2005 the US will reach the point of being unable to search for domestic oil economically, although we may still persist in doing so for the agricultural sector, making it even more heavily subsidized than it is now. This type of "uneconomic" oil production by richly endowed, low-cost foreign producers and exporters is expected to begin around 2040. As a result, the US GNP per capita is predicted to slide starting in the 1990s, coinciding with the passing of the era of inexpensive oil."
There's some world class bullshit from a 20 year old book.
The other one, "The Party's Over", doesn't seem quite as ludicrous, although I have not read it. No wait, from the synopsis he seems to be positing that discovery peaked in the '50s. To which I reply, big fucking deal, we had just figured out how to look for it and found a lot. Decades worth. We keep finding more.




So now we're on to discussing domestic oil production in the US?  The discovery of new domestic oil reserves peaked in the 1930's and has been in steady decline since.  Domestic oil production peaked in the 1970's and likewise has been in a steady decline.  Worldwide discoveries peaked in the 1960's.  These are facts.  We simply aren't discovering new oil to keep up with demand and it has been this way for a while.  This has nothing to do with flaws in our discovery methods, it stems from the fact there are no more supergiant oil reserves left to be found.  No amount of new discovery projects or methods will change the fact that there is a finite amount of oil in the ground and nearly all of it has already been recovered. 

"Of greater immediate consequence is that the major petroleum exporting nations have little additional reserve production capacity.16  Figure 4 shows the difference in the year of maximum discovery and annual discovery compared with production.  The world’s peak year of discovery was 1964 and 1980 the final year discovery paced consumption.  The subsequent discovery falloff was, at least in part, from the resulting oil surplus.  The trendline marked with dark diamonds shows the number of new drilling rigs each year.  The trendline demonstrates that the spirited attempts to locate new oil fields peaked in 1980 and subsequently succumbed to geologic realties.  The chart also illustrates that despite periods with price spikes over decades, little or no lessening of the consumption gap is evident.  In the year 2002 total world discoveries was only approximately 15% of consumption, 3 – 6 Gbl.17  The failure to close the gap in recent years using sophisticated discovery and drilling technologies is clear as well.*link


  If domestic oil depletion is any indicator for a global production peak, then it should occur 40 years after the peak in discoveries (Hubbert predicted between 1990-2000).  However, political events affect the supply and demand for fossil fuels and one of the reasons global oil production did not peak in the 90's like Hubbert predicted is due to the reduced supply made available during the oil embargo in the 1970's.  Many events have occurred since 'Beyond Oil' was published in '91 and these have greatly affected the supply of and demand for oil.  For example, Iraq's current export rates are no where near the levels they were before the war so they may not peak until 2015.

The main point is peak oil is rapidly approaching and it is foolish to waste time debating over the exact year/month/day it occurs.  We will only truly know the peak after it has already passed, which will be far to late to react accordingly.  Peak oil is on its way and there is little we can do to mitigate its effects.


Quote:

As to your ridiculous assertions vis a vis coal and oil shale I look forward to your immensely informative and specific links. It should be excellent reading
Unlike you I will post a link.
http://dieoff.org/page20.htm




Unlike you, I don't believe all the answers are located on one convenient webpage.  I mentioned the books that I'm largely using as references.  Aside from scanning the pages and their footnotes (:rolleyes:) I can't help you.  Time to do some work on your own.


--------------------
"this lebowski he called himself 'the dude'. now, 'dude', that's a name no one would self-apply where i come from but there was a lot about the dude that didn't make sense to me...."--the Stranger


Edited by TheDude (05/24/06 09:47 PM)


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Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
Male

Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
Re: ~29%~... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5670451 - 05/24/06 09:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

More Chicken Little





Me thinks we're encountering a fowl of a different flavor:




--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
Re: ~29%~... [Re: zorbman]
    #5670527 - 05/24/06 10:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

We seem to have strayed pretty far from the topic of this thread. From poll numbers to net neutrality to peak oil.

I'm going to lock this thread. If anyone wishes to continue arguing about peak oil, I suggest they bump one of the about four dozen threads about peak oil which have appeared here in the past few years, AND tie in some political or activist angle to it... i.e. what should GOVERNMENT do about the supposed "peak oil crisis" (thus tying in to politics) or what should ACTIVISTS persuade government or business or consumers to do about the supposed "peak oil crisis" (thus tying in to activism) or what LAWS should be changed by the government in order to deal with the supposed "peak oil crisis".


Phred


--------------------


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
Re: ~29%~... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5670533 - 05/24/06 10:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

This thread has been closed.

Reason:
Degenerated into an off topic rehash of a subject which has been beaten to death countless times already.


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