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OfflinejustAkid
Member of myCulture

Registered: 11/05/05
Posts: 323
Loc: The Present
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
God's complete lack of control
    #5615509 - 05/10/06 11:12 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Obviously this is for those who are not aethists(I've heard your arguments). This is not a debate about the Christian God.

To debate about what God is. We might never know fully because we might never be God. But I think we can know some things by reason and other means.

Now if God were to create anything it would either be perfect or non-perfect. If it were perfect it would be God and nothing would have been created. It it were non-perfect it would not be God and it would be evil. If God creates evil, God is not good and is not God. So God cannot create anything. So every force that is not God did not come from God. This also means that God cannot be held responcible for the evil that is apparent in the world, so this evil force(s) must have existed seperate from God. Thus God cannot control evil nor anything outside of himself. These forces constantly work against each other, affecting one another though not being able to control the other.

Any takers?

Debaters? I'm sure.


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Trust thyself.

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
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Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
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Re: God's complete lack of control [Re: justAkid]
    #5615561 - 05/10/06 11:27 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

justAkid said:
Obviously this is for those who are not aethists(I've heard your arguments). This is not a debate about the Christian God.

To debate about what God is. We might never know fully because we might never be God. But I think we can know some things by reason and other means.

Now if God were to create anything it would either be perfect or non-perfect. If it were perfect it would be God and nothing would have been created. It it were non-perfect it would not be God and it would be evil. If God creates evil, God is not good and is not God. So God cannot create anything. So every force that is not God did not come from God. This also means that God cannot be held responcible for the evil that is apparent in the world, so this evil force(s) must have existed seperate from God. Thus God cannot control evil nor anything outside of himself. These forces constantly work against each other, affecting one another though not being able to control the other.

Any takers?

Debaters? I'm sure.




Well you do have a point there. Since we really have no other specific gods to discuss exept the ones in aincient religions, I'll stick to the christian god.
Before the intervention of the devil, the earth was perfect in gods mind and humans were also perfect.
Obviously the devil, is so strong that god cannot make him simply vanish, but can fight a war with him.

The whole earth thing, the final judgement etc. Might all be just a complex plan to lure the devil out on the open, to let him be the master of humans on earth, so in the final days, when he is revealed as the ruller he might be destroyed along with the defective humans that follow him.

If that happens, then we are back to the idea of omnipotence, beause in the end god did acomplish to do that, and again there is no proven thing that he couldn't do, exept that the ways of doing it always follow some kind of logic of the universe.
In other words, things don't just happen out of thin air or dissapear, but are done through real world actions and real creatures.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflineDavid_Scape
Anti Genius
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Registered: 08/05/02
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Re: God's complete lack of control [Re: justAkid]
    #5615904 - 05/11/06 12:54 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

justAkid said:
Now if God were to create anything it would either be perfect or non-perfect. If it were perfect it would be God and nothing would have been created. It it were non-perfect it would not be God and it would be evil.





What makes something non-perfect, evil? Everything non-perfect is evil?


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram

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OfflineBasilides
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Registered: 02/10/06
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Re: God's complete lack of control [Re: justAkid]
    #5615943 - 05/11/06 01:12 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I'm sure in the 'inner life of the deity' God thought long and hard how She would go about creating the Great Mirror (humanity), and created an outward reality, a formed reality from the formless ultimate reality. A successful liberation from this place is truly of the Glory of God.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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OfflineXanthas
Blaspheme,blaspheyou, Blaspheverybody

Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 267
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Re: God's complete lack of control [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5616030 - 05/11/06 01:44 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

(just FYI, I am an atheist)

I understand, have seen, and have used the argument you're putting forth.

If I may simplify a bit.

The premise is that perfection cannot create imperfection, as this would mar that which is perfect. Perfection is complete, whole, and good. If a perfect entity created something, then that entity could not have been perfect, because needing to create something would make said entity incomplete, and thus, imperfect.

So either God is inert, or God is imperfect.


--------------------
If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.

Edited by Xanthas (05/11/06 01:54 AM)

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: God's complete lack of control [Re: justAkid]
    #5616280 - 05/11/06 04:16 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

> Now if God were to create anything it would either be perfect or non-perfect.

Once again, constraining Gd with duality.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Registered: 06/30/03
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Re: God's complete lack of control [Re: justAkid]
    #5616447 - 05/11/06 08:38 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

God doesn't control

He only creates and nurtures.

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: God's complete lack of control [Re: Xanthas]
    #5616512 - 05/11/06 09:15 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Xanthas said:
(just FYI, I am an atheist)

I understand, have seen, and have used the argument you're putting forth.

If I may simplify a bit.

The premise is that perfection cannot create imperfection, as this would mar that which is perfect. Perfection is complete, whole, and good. If a perfect entity created something, then that entity could not have been perfect, because needing to create something would make said entity incomplete, and thus, imperfect.

So either God is inert, or God is imperfect.




and why wouldn't something perfect be able to create something imperfect? Where is the logic behind that?
If this perfect being has will, it can decide to create whatever it wants, perfect or imperfect


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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Re: God's complete lack of control [Re: justAkid]
    #5616883 - 05/11/06 11:53 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Are you?

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OfflinejustAkid
Member of myCulture

Registered: 11/05/05
Posts: 323
Loc: The Present
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
Re: God's complete lack of control [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5617051 - 05/11/06 12:34 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

and why wouldn't something perfect be able to create something imperfect? Where is the logic behind that?
If this perfect being has will, it can decide to create whatever it wants, perfect or imperfect




If something perfect and wholely good created something imperfect, the perfect being is now responcible for evil. If this happens the perfect being can no longer be considered perfect because it is responcible for evil.


--------------------
Trust thyself.

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OfflineEquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Re: God's complete lack of control [Re: justAkid]
    #5617096 - 05/11/06 12:49 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

God is a part of everything that we know. Nothing is separate from God. Not good or evil or a desk or a computer or perfection or imperfection.


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HELP!!!!!!!!!

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OfflineEquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
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Re: God's complete lack of control [Re: justAkid]
    #5617098 - 05/11/06 12:50 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

justAkid said:
Quote:

and why wouldn't something perfect be able to create something imperfect? Where is the logic behind that?
If this perfect being has will, it can decide to create whatever it wants, perfect or imperfect




If something perfect and wholely good created something imperfect, the perfect being is now responcible for evil. If this happens the perfect being can no longer be considered perfect because it is responcible for evil.




Why not?


--------------------
HELP!!!!!!!!!

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OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
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Re: God's complete lack of control [Re: justAkid]
    #5617285 - 05/11/06 01:43 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

God is so strong and perfect, that he allows (and even foresees as good) a derivation from him. He allows to make everyones own experiences and judge for everyonesself, knowing that when g*d reveals in his/her/its absoluteness, all/everything/everyone would wish to reunite in him/her/it again. G:sun:D needs the dynamic, to prove him/her/it self.
That forces my respect.

Remember, only 'the devil' sees g*d as evil to seduce the others, until they recognice their unperfection.

Everything is right under control by him/her/it :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (05/11/06 01:50 PM)

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