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OfflineEquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: Why The Dems Won’t Win in November [Re: downforpot]
    #5619021 - 05/11/06 09:00 PM (18 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

downforpot said:
Holy shit, raise the minimum wage? Who ain't gonna vote for that?




These advocates of minimum wages fail to see the real effect of minimum wages on society and are rather swayed by the initial nominal increases in wages. The cost of production goes up with the rise in wage bill. The failure to raise the productivity of the workers to the wage level is certain to rocket the prices. Would a student worker be able to do the work more efficiently if the wage is increased to $ 10.0? There might be incentives to work hard but definitely productivity is not going to increase at a rate comparable to the raise in wage levels as increase in productivity demands more training and education including other things. So, ultimately the society has to suffer from higher prices and most of the times the increase in prices tends to negate the effect of rise in nominal wages. So, higher wages which are not accompanied by an increase in productivity tend to raise the prices and decrease the living standard.

Not only will there be effects on prices, but also disastrous effects on the employment as a result of the minimum wage. The basic economic argument claims that a rise in wage level cuts off the number of those employed. This is due to the fact that employers do not find some of those less skilled workers worth hiring at the higher wage rate. The employers will cut the number of workers working for them. Hence, the lower demand of low-skilled workers is sure to worsen the lives of those who may get fired from the work. And, the ones to get fired are those who do not have good skills.

And thus, by setting up a minimum wage, rather than benefiting the workers earning less, they are made worse off without employment. Those workers who are supposed to get higher wages as determined by minimum wage are likely to lose their jobs as many of them do not have many skills. Establishment of minimum wage does not have much impact on those who are skilled. Minimum wage rather helps those who have sufficient skills as they can retain their jobs even at the higher wage rates. Therefore, minimum wage is bound to benefit the skilled workers at the expense of the less-skilled ones. Minimum wages decreases international competitiveness. So, employers are likely to outsource the jobs to foreign workers who are willing to work at a lower wage. So, it further aggravates the employment problem.

http://unitelibertarians.blogspot.com/2006/03/against-minimum-wages.html


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HELP!!!!!!!!!

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Invisibledownforpot
Stranger
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Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
Re: Why The Dems Won’t Win in November [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5619108 - 05/11/06 09:26 PM (18 years, 11 days ago)

So the raise in minimum wage during Clinton's era did not help the economy, unemployment went up?


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: Why The Dems Won’t Win in November [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5619211 - 05/11/06 09:59 PM (18 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

The cost of production goes up with the rise in wage bill. The failure to raise the productivity of the workers to the wage level is certain to rocket the prices.




The more minimum wage earners earn, the more money they will spend on shit the corporations they work for are selling. Trickle up theory.


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.

Edited by 1stimer (05/11/06 10:00 PM)

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OfflineEquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: Why The Dems Won’t Win in November [Re: 1stimer]
    #5619233 - 05/11/06 10:09 PM (18 years, 11 days ago)

You also have all the illegal aliens being hired in order to avoid the minimum wage laws.  :grin:


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HELP!!!!!!!!!

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OfflineEquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: Why The Dems Won’t Win in November [Re: downforpot]
    #5619358 - 05/11/06 10:42 PM (18 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

downforpot said:
So the raise in minimum wage during Clinton's era did not help the economy, unemployment went up?




You asked who would vote against raising minimum wage, I responded with credible arguments against minimum wage laws. The answer to your question is MANY people would vote against raising the minimum wage, and also a good number of people would like to do away with minimum wage laws all together. Personally I think minimum wage laws are bullshit, but I don't like very many laws at all.

I am no economist and I am not qualified to argue the "Clinton era economics and unemployment rates" with you. Mostly because it really does not interest me in the least. I concede that "the Clinton era" was a time of much growth, how much of that was a result of a raise in the minimum wage, I cannot be certain. I believe that employers should have the freedom to pay what fits their needs. If workers have a problem with their wages, they can always find a new employer.


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HELP!!!!!!!!!

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OfflineArcofaJourney
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Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 582
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Re: Why The Dems Won’t Win in November [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5619522 - 05/11/06 11:23 PM (18 years, 11 days ago)

Dude, did you ever hear of Costco? They start people that are just like grocery baggers at like 10$ an hour compared to Wal Mart's $6.50 and Costco is growing at an amazing rate because of the decreased overhead costs and turnover rates. People work a lot harder knowing they wanna keep a good paying job. How any normal working person can simply spout the same rhetoric the corporation CEOs themselves spout is beyond me. Its like sticking a knife in all of our backs...

Edited by ArcofaJourney (05/11/06 11:24 PM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Why The Dems Won’t Win in November [Re: ArcofaJourney]
    #5619535 - 05/11/06 11:25 PM (18 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

ArcofaJourney said:
Dude, did you ever hear of Costco? They start people that are just like grocery baggers at like 10$ an hour compared to Wal Mart's $6.50 and Costco is growing and an amazing rate because of the decreased overhead costs and turnover rates. People work a lot harder knowing they wanna keep a good paying job. How any normal working person can simply spout the same rhetoric the corporation CEOs themselves spout is beyond me. Its like sticking a knife in all of our backs...



Right, but that's only because CostCo's wages are so high compared to others. If every place paid $10 an hour, the results would be quite different.


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OfflineArcofaJourney
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Re: Why The Dems Won’t Win in November [Re: Silversoul]
    #5619567 - 05/11/06 11:30 PM (18 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

ArcofaJourney said:
Dude, did you ever hear of Costco? They start people that are just like grocery baggers at like 10$ an hour compared to Wal Mart's $6.50 and Costco is growing and an amazing rate because of the decreased overhead costs and turnover rates. People work a lot harder knowing they wanna keep a good paying job. How any normal working person can simply spout the same rhetoric the corporation CEOs themselves spout is beyond me. Its like sticking a knife in all of our backs...



Right, but that's only because CostCo's wages are so high compared to others. If every place paid $10 an hour, the results would be quite different.




yeah, but it's a much harder fall from 10 an hour to nothing if fired than it is from 5.75 or whatever to nothing. Ok, we'll just outlaw the minimum wage, let everyone work at McDonalds for 2$ an hour. How much work do you think anyone would do?

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Why The Dems Won’t Win in November [Re: ArcofaJourney]
    #5619607 - 05/11/06 11:37 PM (18 years, 11 days ago)

They'll do whatever work it takes to get by, just like they do now. Oh, and IIRC, McDonald's currently pays more than minimum wage.


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OfflineEquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: Why The Dems Won’t Win in November [Re: ArcofaJourney]
    #5619622 - 05/11/06 11:40 PM (18 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

ArcofaJourney said:
Dude, did you ever hear of Costco? They start people that are just like grocery baggers at like 10$ an hour compared to Wal Mart's $6.50 and Costco is growing at an amazing rate because of the decreased overhead costs and turnover rates. People work a lot harder knowing they wanna keep a good paying job. How any normal working person can simply spout the same rhetoric the corporation CEOs themselves spout is beyond me. Its like sticking a knife in all of our backs...




Thats what I'm talking about and its great. Fuck walmart, work for costco!  :thumbup:

No, seriously, FUCK WALMART.


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Invisibledownforpot
Stranger
Male
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
Re: Why The Dems Won’t Win in November [Re: Silversoul]
    #5620034 - 05/12/06 02:57 AM (18 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
They'll do whatever work it takes to get by, just like they do now. Oh, and IIRC, McDonald's currently pays more than minimum wage.




My friend doesn't even make 7 bucks an hour at McDonalds. Actually he quit, nm, he sells weed now.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

Edited by downforpot (05/12/06 02:58 AM)

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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: Why The Dems Won’t Win in November [Re: downforpot]
    #5620686 - 05/12/06 10:35 AM (18 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

downforpot said:
So the raise in minimum wage during Clinton's era did not help the economy, unemployment went up?



I'm going to reiterate a very cogent argument made by Wilshire a year or so ago. Eating McDonalds three times a day, every day, all week is indisputably unhealthy for you -- if you were to start eating like this tomorrow, it would probably not be long before you started gaining some serious weight. Let's further imagine that you run a mile every morning before the breakfast McGriddle, or whatever. After a month of McDonalds three times a day and a mile run every morning, you find you've gained 25 pounds. Which seems to be the more likely conclusion:

(1) Running a mile every morning does not elicit weight loss and may, in fact, cause weight gain.
(2) Any weight loss that might have come about as a result of running a mile a day was completely nullified and then some by the awful eating habits.

(1) or (2)?

Had enough time?

The correct answer would be (2). Likewise with minimum wage, pointing to PERIOD_OF_TIME_X and declaring that 'the minimum wage was raised and unemployment stayed stagnant or decreased, clearly you greedy capitalists are wrong' is a fallacious argument. The laws of economics are immutable -- if a price floor is imposed on labor, the demand for it will decrease even as the supply of it increases, this is undeniable. In the situation above, had the person not ran a mile a day, he probably would have gained even more weight. In the Clinton Years example, had the minimum wage not been raised we almost certainly would have had even less unemployment and an even more vibrant economy.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: Why The Dems Won’t Win in November [Re: ArcofaJourney]
    #5620696 - 05/12/06 10:39 AM (18 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

ArcofaJourney said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

ArcofaJourney said:
Dude, did you ever hear of Costco? They start people that are just like grocery baggers at like 10$ an hour compared to Wal Mart's $6.50 and Costco is growing and an amazing rate because of the decreased overhead costs and turnover rates. People work a lot harder knowing they wanna keep a good paying job. How any normal working person can simply spout the same rhetoric the corporation CEOs themselves spout is beyond me. Its like sticking a knife in all of our backs...



Right, but that's only because CostCo's wages are so high compared to others. If every place paid $10 an hour, the results would be quite different.




yeah, but it's a much harder fall from 10 an hour to nothing if fired than it is from 5.75 or whatever to nothing. Ok, we'll just outlaw the minimum wage, let everyone work at McDonalds for 2$ an hour. How much work do you think anyone would do?



Can you explain why anyone at all gets paid higher than minimum wage right now? Surely the race to the bottom that is endemic to Capitalism should occur regardless of a few dollars difference in the minimum wage, no?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
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Re: Why The Dems Won’t Win in November [Re: Basilides]
    #5620745 - 05/12/06 10:55 AM (18 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
I imagine libbies will be bumping this thread in a few months.

I think the glory days for the Republican Party is once again coming to a close. I think they'll lose control of the senate fairly easily, and in 2008 the Dem's will probably easily take the White House.






A few posters have predicted a Democrat house win in 2006. I stand by my prediction that the Dem's will lose the House and Senate again.
The voters will not be exited to show up to vote for a party that runs on "I hate Bush, we will cause gridlock, and we have no ideas.

If I'm wrong I will be eating lots of crow.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Why The Dems Won’t Win in November [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5621581 - 05/12/06 03:14 PM (18 years, 11 days ago)

I think the Dem's will win both, but it won't make a damn bit of a difference.

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Why The Dems Won’t Win in November [Re: Basilides]
    #6115141 - 09/29/06 11:25 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
I imagine libbies will be bumping this thread in a few months.

I think the glory days for the Republican Party is once again coming to a close. I think they'll lose control of the senate fairly easily, and in 2008 the Dems will probably easily take the White House.

After Bush and the Iraq War, I can't see the Republican party gaining any momentum for awhile. At this point it seems the only thing most Republicans are pleased with in regard to Bush is John Roberts and Samuel Alito.

Bush won the 2004 election mainly because of the Religious Right, which rose up that year to support Bush, and just months after being re-elected the Religious Right quickly became disillusioned with Bush. Had the 2004 election occurred under the circumstances present in 2005 onward, John Kerry would have seized the White House.





I will not be eating any crow in November.

I still predict the Reps will win the House and Senate. AGAIN

In 2008 Reps win the White House again, and the House and Senate. AGAIN

2010 reps win house and senate. AGAIN

2012!!!!! IMO This is when the Democratic party Dies. It becomes equal to the green party.

Why????? Demographics

"New England stands to lose about 20 percent of its congressional seats over the next quarter-century as political power follows population booms in the South and West."

http://www.boston.com/news/local/connect...olitical_clout/

the South is growing in electoral clout even as the Republican hold on the region solidifies.

"Democratic strongholds of New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Massachusetts and Michigan would lose a combined 17 Electoral College votes."
"
Over that same period, Florida (up nine, to 36) and Texas (up eight, to 42) could gain that many votes alone. Arizona (up five, to 15), which has voted Democratic for president only once since 1952, would be the other big winner."


http://www.spokesmanreview.com/breaking/story.asp?ID=3995


IMO the Democrats are likely to be A small minority party for as long as a generation. Thankfully

Hopefully... a new Honest party will grow to challenge the One Party Nation.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
Male

Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
Re: Why The Dems Won’t Win in November [Re: lonestar2004]
    #6115313 - 09/29/06 12:09 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I love how how you call the left "haters" yet the very article you quoted has Richard Cohen pointing out that the most response he got were emails from Republicans hating on Steven Colbert. Priceless.

Look, both parties have figured out how to turn out their base at election time by riling them up. Republicans use Bill "Rile em up" O'Reilly and Democrats use people like Michael Moore. If you are so against haters then you should also be against the demagogues who encourage them and lower the tone of public discourse.

Jim Pinkerton says over-the-top Dem rhetoric about impeachment will rally even the most jaded Republican to turn out in November.

What "over-the-top rhetoric"? Personally I don't find the airways abuzz with talk of impeachment. That's just silly. There is some if you look for it, but I would hardly call it "over-the-top". "Under-the-surface" would be a more apt description.

But I do agree with you that Republicans are not doomed and should focus on border security and cutting spending if they want to have a better chance of holding onto their majorities.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

Edited by zorbman (09/29/06 12:15 PM)

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InvisibleHank, FTW
Looking for the Answer

Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 3,912
Re: Why The Dems Won’t Win in November [Re: Ancalagon]
    #6115319 - 09/29/06 12:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

downforpot said:
So the raise in minimum wage during Clinton's era did not help the economy, unemployment went up?



I'm going to reiterate a very cogent argument made by Wilshire a year or so ago. Eating McDonalds three times a day, every day, all week is indisputably unhealthy for you -- if you were to start eating like this tomorrow, it would probably not be long before you started gaining some serious weight. Let's further imagine that you run a mile every morning before the breakfast McGriddle, or whatever. After a month of McDonalds three times a day and a mile run every morning, you find you've gained 25 pounds. Which seems to be the more likely conclusion:

(1) Running a mile every morning does not elicit weight loss and may, in fact, cause weight gain.
(2) Any weight loss that might have come about as a result of running a mile a day was completely nullified and then some by the awful eating habits.

(1) or (2)?

Had enough time?

The correct answer would be (2). Likewise with minimum wage, pointing to PERIOD_OF_TIME_X and declaring that 'the minimum wage was raised and unemployment stayed stagnant or decreased, clearly you greedy capitalists are wrong' is a fallacious argument. The laws of economics are immutable -- if a price floor is imposed on labor, the demand for it will decrease even as the supply of it increases, this is undeniable. In the situation above, had the person not ran a mile a day, he probably would have gained even more weight. In the Clinton Years example, had the minimum wage not been raised we almost certainly would have had even less unemployment and an even more vibrant economy.




PWNED!  :smirk:


--------------------
Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

:rofl:

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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: Why The Dems Won’t Win in November [Re: lonestar2004]
    #6115594 - 09/29/06 01:40 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
I imagine libbies will be bumping this thread in a few months.

I think the glory days for the Republican Party is once again coming to a close. I think they'll lose control of the senate fairly easily, and in 2008 the Dem's will probably easily take the White House.






A few posters have predicted a Democrat house win in 2006. I stand by my prediction that the Dem's will lose the House and Senate again.
The voters will not be exited to show up to vote for a party that runs on "I hate Bush, we will cause gridlock, and we have no ideas.

If I'm wrong I will be eating lots of crow.




No, the Dems are running on pushing money into saving the environment and cracking down or corporations abusing it, they will run on continuing their effort to thwart terrorism and not scare America into wars with past terrorist attacks, they will run on saving the internet, they will run on removing all unrepublican-like (small government eh?) terrorism measures, but continue to crack down on terror by WARRANTED spying.

They are running on not making America look like a bunch of fools by having a babbling idiot for a president, an idiot who can't articulate as well as my 7 year daughter.

Then again, I pay attention to what they're saying and there voting records, so I'm not one to say "oooh both parties suck we can't do anything boohoo" I say get out there and vote, we have one party paid for by corporations and one party paid for by unions and just plain old people. Which one do you think will be more fair? Look at the voting records. What illogical, retarded things have every single democrat united for like the republicans have united for removing net neutrallity?

C'mon man, we know you're a republican if you claim "Ohh you know what, both parties are corrupt and suck so don't vote for either. Boohoo."


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.

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Offlinelonestar2004
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 User Gallery

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
Re: Why The Dems Won’t Win in November [Re: beatnicknick]
    #6115815 - 09/29/06 02:36 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

"the Dem's will run on saving the internet,"net neutrallity"




The Internet needs to be saved? and Net Neutrality sounds like Socialism to me.


Would you please tell me in your own words what exactly net neutrality is and why its going to save the Internet?

Please no spin article just your own words.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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