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supertedd
Learner

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 22
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
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Cultivation help - multiple failures
#5614890 - 05/10/06 09:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hello,
I have attempted many times to grow shrooms and have only succeeded once. I’m not giving up, but need help cause I am so frustrated and cant figure out whats going on. I will go through the processes I have attempted which have failed and succeeded once.
Successful attempt process: 1. I’m located in Australia and pick 2 strains of shrooms, I now they are active and think they are a strain of Cubensis and Copelandia. 2. Cubensis spore sample taken by cutting stem off and placing cap on cooking paper with bowl over the top. Left for about a day till spores have dropped. Paper then folded and placed in zip tight bag for later. 3. Substrate: 70% brown rice, 15% cow poo, which was taken from the paddock and chopped up fine, and 15% water. Brown rice was boiled till water was absorbed then mixed with the cow poo and water in the above proportions. 4. Substrate was added to 13 500 mL plastic microwave containers which had a layer of vermiculite on the base to absorb any moisture (I know microwave not preferred technique but this was attempted after many failures using a pressure cooker). Containers had 4 holes pricked in lid with electrical tap covering these holes, later used for inoculation. Nuked in microwave, 5 at a time on high for about 10 mins. Left to cool. 5. Syringe (4mL) and small bottle sterilized by boiling in pot of water for about 30 mins. Small bottle filled with boiled water to add spores in. 6. Using an over turned fish tank as preparation area for inoculation. Spores scrapped from cooking paper using razor blade into small bottle with water. Lid replaced and bottle shook till spores dispersed evenly. 7. Take lid off bottle and fill syringe with spores. Electrical tape on containers peeled back to show holes and inoculated with syringe, 4mL per container. 8. Left to incubate in fridge, with temperature controlled via a fish tank heater in a container of water placed on bottom. Temp stays around 85 F. Fully colonized around 3-4 week mark with 3 containers contaminated and thrown away. 9. Terrarium setup in another fridge with light at the top timed to switch on and off every 30 mins, bucket of water in bottom with fish tank heater to regulate temp and also had fish tank bubblers. Temp set and ranged from 74-78 F over the course of a day. 10. Cakes birthed onto trays with a layer perlite with water then placed into terrarium, air exchanged and fanned 2 times a day. Pinning about 2 weeks after, and harvested for around 2 months till no more shrooms. Harvested about 40 grams dried from the 10 cakes over the period. Noticed that the shrooms were quite significantly smaller then the ones picked in the wild, but were very potent.
Failed attempts: Area of failure is contamination. Different processes attempted listed- 1. Jars filled with same substrate and sterilized in pressure cooker for about 1 hour. 4 Holes punched in lids and covered with alfoil. Inoculated same as above. Initial colonization looks promising but after about a week contamination sets in, and the jars which don’t get contaminated after about 2 weeks look as though they get really soggy and wet. 2. Different substrate tried, mix of 50% vermiculite, 25% brown rice flour, 25% water. Sterilised using both pressure cooker and microwave tech, same result contamination sets in and looks very wet after about 2 weeks. Also tried with cow poo added. 3. Try using less water to reduce the moisture, colonises great but still same result. Maybe it gets to wet because the fridge is sealed and not enough air exchange, even though the door gets opened 1-2 times daily to check progress.
Was I just lucky with my only successful attempt? Does it have something to do with my inoculation process? Any help or suggestions will be much appreciated.
Cheers.
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creamcorn
mad scientist


Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 2,962
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Re: Cultivation help - multiple failures [Re: supertedd]
#5615212 - 05/10/06 10:20 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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its very difficult to get a clean print from a wild mushroom. the common and most effective way would be to use an inoculation loop and swipe a number of agar plates, isolate good growth and grow it out on a second plate, perhaps even a third or more, until you've got strong growth on a contaminate free plate. from there you can inoculate with a wedge, and print your home grown guys for clean prints for future use.
so yeah, you were probably lucky with your successful attempt. i don't think you're really doing anything wrong (well, the microwave sterilization is sketchy, but can work) but there's some inherent risk trying to print spores from the wild and shoot them right into substrate jars.
also consider cloning a wild mushroom instead of printing it. there's a real easy way involving liquid culture - look up liquid cultures to see how to prepare that. take your sterilized syringe right out into the field with you... no water in it but have the plunger pulled back about half way so its half full of air (so you can eject later)... find a good looking mushroom, pop the cap off, and quickly stab the syringe into the stem, give it a twist and a wiggle, pull back the plunger a little bit, and hopefully you end up with a chunk of the inside of the mushroom (so you know its clean!) inside your needle. put it in a sealed container, return home, and shoot it out of the syringe into the liquid. you should soon after get mycelium growing in the liquid, and you can suck that up into your syringe and inoculate to your hearts content with that.
if you're gonna keep trying from wild prints and can't do or don't desire to do the agar work involved, i suggest going for the simplest most basic pf-type grow you can (just brf/verm). make up quite a few jars. leave at least one or two jars alone, don't inoculate with any spores. sit and wait for colonization on the others. if your blank "control" jar(s) contaminates while the others are colonizing, you got it narrowed down - check your sterilization process... if you didn't inoculate it you know the contam didn't come from your inoculation! even if you make a dozen jars and only one succeeds, you can make clean spore prints, and will have wayyy better luck from then on out, and can start trying those other recipes and growing methods. reduce the complication by staying simple, using tried and true methods, and keep it as narrow as possible... that's the way to troubleshoot. seems tedious and like a lot of waiting until you can really get the ball rolling, but that's better than failing all together right? 
good luck
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supertedd
Learner

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 22
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
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Re: Cultivation help - multiple failures [Re: creamcorn]
#5615763 - 05/11/06 12:09 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Thanks for those tips, will look up liquid culture techs and then wait for the next boom and go hunting. Good idea to leave some un-inoculated jars and see whether they get contaminated. Not real sure how to use agar but will do some more research, is it hard? Who would of thought growing mushrooms could be so hard......for me at least. Will get there soon, I hope.
Cheers.
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monstermitch
Growing in Bags Doesn't Work


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 3,911
Loc: Arizona Bay
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Re: Cultivation help - multiple failures [Re: supertedd]
#5615809 - 05/11/06 12:17 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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If it was really easy, everyone would do it... There has to be some challange or where would the fun be?
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skeletor
the dude
Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 1,235
Loc: heaven on earth
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
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Re: Cultivation help - multiple failures [Re: monstermitch]
#5615830 - 05/11/06 12:24 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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i would think cloning from a wild shroom would work fine since you cut open teh 'skin'. so its not contaminated. also if you are doing grains that havnt been grounded into flour then you must PC.
-------------------- im sorry about your mother. She was a terrible attrative woman. Get back to nature; hunting burgers and gathering fries.
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oO_wombat_Oo
Stranger

Registered: 06/04/01
Posts: 812
Loc: NSW, Australia.
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Re: Cultivation help - multiple failures [Re: monstermitch]
#5615839 - 05/11/06 12:27 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I found it pretty easy to be honest. I don't even own a pressure cooker and I've only ever had 1 jar contaminate. Pretty red colour too, it was cool.
Meh. I dunno. I just used the simple cubensis growing guide on the shroomery. Followed it to a T and never any problems.
Your choice of substrate is prone to contamination though and hard to sterilize without a pressure cooker. Stick to organic flour and vermiculite and try steam sterilizing in a big pot.
Read this: http://www.shroomery.org/index.php/par/7919
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supertedd
Learner

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 22
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
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Re: Cultivation help - multiple failures [Re: supertedd]
#5616061 - 05/11/06 01:53 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Because im using a small fridge to incubate and it is pretty much sealed, only opened 1-2 times per day could that cause the jars to go wet as there is not enough air exchange?
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creamcorn
mad scientist


Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 2,962
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Re: Cultivation help - multiple failures [Re: supertedd]
#5616376 - 05/11/06 07:27 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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agar isn't hard, but it does require more tools and materials, and is pretty prone to contamination itself unless you have a glove box or flow hood to work in front of. you'll probably have the best luck using the LC cloning method.
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coda
Banjo Goiter


Registered: 03/20/01
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Re: Cultivation help - multiple failures [Re: creamcorn]
#5616453 - 05/11/06 08:40 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Here's what you do.
1.) Purchase a spore syringe from a vendor 2.) Ditch the method you've been using 3.) Follow the PF tek if you want to go the easy way, or learn how to spawn to poo.
Your problem comes from your procedure. If you're going to be sticking with whole grains use bird seed not brown rice. Microwaves suck, avoid them. So take a look at the PF method, throw your current procedure out the window, and start fresh.
-------------------- To get really high is to forget yourself. And to forget yourself is to see everything else. And to see everything else is to become an understanding molecule in evolution, a conscious tool of the universe. And I think every human being should be a conscious tool of the universe. . . . -JG i really am glad you came back to us instead of taking the other path. *hug* -A_S (RIP your final words to me will never be forgotten)
 Don't fuck with the laughing jesus.
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CrazyPsilocybe
King Of AllJackasses

Registered: 04/30/06
Posts: 83
Loc: United States of Ass Rapi...
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Re: Cultivation help - multiple failures [Re: coda]
#5616484 - 05/11/06 09:00 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Bingo! (What coda said)
-------------------- "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." -Hunter S. Thompson
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supertedd
Learner

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 22
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
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Re: Cultivation help - multiple failures [Re: coda]
#5627528 - 05/14/06 05:34 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Thanks, but do you consider brown rice flour as a whole grain? and I would purchase a spore syringe if I could but the country I live in wont allow it, so Im stuck with trying to grow from printing wild shrooms. I have just inoculated jars again and left a few blank control jars to try and narrow down where the contamination is coming from with my procedure. I am guessing it is coming from the wild shroom spore prints and I have read the PF Tech over and over, and do follow it.
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monstermitch
Growing in Bags Doesn't Work


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 3,911
Loc: Arizona Bay
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Re: Cultivation help - multiple failures [Re: supertedd]
#5627675 - 05/14/06 08:49 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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brf is not a grain. it is flour.
go with cloning of a wild mushroom, forget about getting a clean print for now.
most people here consider grains:
wild bird seed rye berries wheat berries popcorn milo millet
stuff like that.
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monstermitch
Growing in Bags Doesn't Work


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 3,911
Loc: Arizona Bay
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Re: Cultivation help - multiple failures [Re: monstermitch]
#5627678 - 05/14/06 08:51 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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oh, and you don't have to order from a vendor...
have someone in the states mail you a syringe in a discrete package.
hell, just order from ralphsters and give it a try.
oh, and I guess brown rice is a grain, but not really the flour.
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure


Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 11 months, 3 days
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Re: Cultivation help - multiple failures [Re: monstermitch]
#5627812 - 05/14/06 09:45 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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What Coda said.
You can't learn the hobby by inventing your own techniques as you go along. You're not going to have success cloning a wild fruit without a clean room and agar supplies. It doesn't matter if you cut into the interior of the fruit or not. It isn't going to be any cleaner in the middle than on the outside, because wild mushrooms exist and grow in nature along with other molds and bacteria. In other words, you're just as likely to find bacteria in the center of a wild mushroom as on the surface. It takes several transfers on antibiotic agar to properly clean up a culture.
I'm surprised more vendors don't sell spore solution in test tubes instead of those silly damn syringes which look to customs and law enforcement agents like drug paraphernalia. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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monstermitch
Growing in Bags Doesn't Work


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 3,911
Loc: Arizona Bay
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Re: Cultivation help - multiple failures [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5627828 - 05/14/06 09:49 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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RR, you are the best.
Most every post of yours I lean something.
Thank you for all of your corrections and thank you for sharing your wisdom.
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EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: Cultivation help - multiple failures [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5627903 - 05/14/06 10:21 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: I'm surprised more vendors don't sell spore solution in test tubes instead of those silly damn syringes which look to customs and law enforcement agents like drug paraphernalia. RR
Thats a great idea!
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
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supertedd
Learner

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 22
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
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Re: Cultivation help - multiple failures [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5640822 - 05/17/06 03:52 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yes, thats what I was worried about. It would be my luck they pick my package for a random inspection and find a syringe packed full of illegal mushroom spores.
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