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OfflineSyriss162
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Injecting additional nutrients?
    #5612120 - 05/10/06 12:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I have 2 _white_ rice cakes that I originally started and never expected much out of them, currently, i plan on just using their fruits for spore prints. They took 5 weeks to fully colonize, and I dunked for 18 hours. They are both in a FC with 95+ RH and FAE now 4 times a day. I kind of gave up since they showed no signs of pins for like 10 days. This morning I checked on them and there are 7-10 pins about 1/4" tall, which greatly suprised me. I know that potency with white rice is a big issue, with most saying they are pretty damn weak because of the lack of nutrients.

My question is: Has anyone had any luck with injecting some sort of nutrient infused water into a cake in order to increase the potency of its fruits? All feedback is highly appreciated.


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: Injecting additional nutrients? [Re: Syriss162]
    #5612182 - 05/10/06 12:51 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

there's been lots of discussion recently about adding straight tryptophan infused water (the amino acid, not necessarily tryptamine which has also been discussed) in your substrate. however its just discussion, with lots of folks on either side of the fence and no concrete conclusions. intuitively it makes sense that it could work, since tryptophan just a few simple chemical changes away from the active ingredients we want. i think the best chances of it working is starting with an already nutritionally balanced substrate though... think of it like humans, you theoretically can live on sugar water and vitamin suppliments, but won't be very healthy. whereas if you eat a balanced diet you'll fare much better. we can point to specific vitamins for their functions and benefits, but there's a huge gap in that science because we're still missing "something" when we just take a multivitamin tablet. adding specific nutrients is mostly beneficial when you're deficient in something specific (which might be your case here)... but there's a lot we don't understand about how those nutrients work together, and how other small trace elements might also be coming into play that we don't yet recognize or measure, or how a correct combination leads to optimal absorption - its not simply enough to make a nutrient available, there might be other nutrients required in combination to make it useful (take calcium and vitamin D in combination in humans for example - without the vitamin D, calcium doesn't do much good!) there's also the consideration of how much of a good thing is too much? using the human example again there's vitamins we absolutely need, like vitamin A, but in high doses can become toxic.

nutritiondata.com has been an awesome source for me as i've been contemplating and theorizing about these things myself... take a look and see:

brown rice nutrition content
white rice (unenriched) nutrition content

you'll see they have similar protien content, but brown rice provides a more balanced array of protiens and is somewhat higher in that mysterious tryptophan... but the answer isn't probably as straight forward. there's also phosphorus molecules in psilocybin (but not psilosin) and you'll see that brown rice has a much higher level of phosphorus! but again, not enough is a problem, and more is not necessarily better, the ratio between things is just as important.

theoretically speaking if you took into account all those nutrient differences and could come up with a solution to add to your white rice to give it the nutrient content of brown rice, it would work. however it might take a whole lot of water to get everything dissolved and distrubted evenly throwing off moisture content. so its probably possible, but probably a very difficult thing to do, especially when we can pick up brown rice off the shelf right next to the white stuff, where mother nature has already given us a good balanced nutrition to work from. i think there's good use in comparing the two though, knowing one works better than the other, to gain some insight as to what those differences could be and how we can improve the substrates we do work from!


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: Injecting additional nutrients? [Re: creamcorn]
    #5612296 - 05/10/06 01:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

P.S. - haha now that this has me thinking... a few more things to add:

the phosphorus idea is just a hypothesis from my intuitive understanding, don't take that as necessarily fact.  it would be interesting to see though, by consuming white rice mushrooms raw to see if they are still potent - they might be normal in psilosin but low in psilocybin.  we know that we lose most of our psilosin in  preserving our mushrooms but perhaps its still there in normal amounts beforehand!  likewise, the tryptophan thing might be working out in brown rice more than we realize for the same reasons - perhaps there still isn't enough phosphorus in brf to make extra tryptophan useful (despite that theres a lot more than white rice) but maybe our psilocin levels are shooting through the roof, and nobody is considering that aspect and doing their experiments since most consume dry mushrooms... maybe its a winning combination to add both?  maybe it has nothing to do with anything and i'm just shooting my mouth though :smile:  we know our good friend nitrogen has a role in this too and i haven't looked at that part yet...  but we know h/poo is loaded with that (interestingly has more nitrogen and phosphorus than cow poo for example, and we know hpoo is better than cow poo.  hmm)  speaking of which... anybody ever use turkey poo?  its got way more nitrogen and phosphorus than hpoo!  (source)

then again maybe its something different all together.  we still don't know *why* mushrooms make these chemicals, but they've obviously evolved to do so.  if we really understood the reason they came about and what their purpose is we could come closer to playing god with it... example, if it happens to be a defense mechanism, perhaps by orchestrating some specific "danger" we could get them to produce more... who knows, anybody's guess!

too bad nutritiondata doesn't have an analysis of horse poop, then i could come up with some real wacky ideas. :smile:


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OfflineSyriss162
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Re: Injecting additional nutrients? [Re: creamcorn]
    #5612719 - 05/10/06 03:26 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

so you dont think that injecting 1:10 additive:water ratio using something similar to whats used in LCs would benefit in the least?


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: Injecting additional nutrients? [Re: Syriss162]
    #5612762 - 05/10/06 03:36 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

not a bit. the stuff in LC's is simple sugars for the most part. its "just enough" for the myc to survive on. psilo production is a whole lot more complicated than that... you'd be giving it a little extra food, but i emphasize little, no more than throwing an extra pinch of flour into your mix. you're certainly not giving it anything it can use to make psilo*s with just sugar water.


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