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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Questions for most literalist Christians
    #5594750 - 05/05/06 03:58 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

1. There are thousands of different religions in the world, and in the vast majority of cases people follow the dominant faith of the culture they were born into. Is it not arrogant and self-centred to think that your faith is the "true" one and all the others are false?

2. What is the point of prayer? Surely your god knows what you are going to pray for beforehand - and has already decided on his course of action. Is it not absurd to think that you can persuade god to change his mind?

3. Why does god insist that you worship him? Is he insecure - or an egomaniac?

4. Matthew 1:16 "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus."
Luke 3:23 "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli."
The bible is full of contradictions (for a large list see here) - explain how, even with just the small and fairly insignificant contradiction above, the bible can be the infallible word of god.

5. Thomas Paine: "Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon that the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel."
Please explain why the bible is referred to as the "good book".

6. Thomas Paine was referring to the old testament in the above quote. Please explain why the god of the old testament (an angry, vengeful god, worthy of scorn not worship) - is so different from the god talked about in the new testament.

Q7 (regarding creation)

a. "In the beginning God created the heaven and earth" ... what was god doing before "the beginning", and where did he reside?

b. Explain how god made light, then separated light from darkness, BEFORE he had created the sun, moon and stars.

c. Explain why "he made the stars also" - countless billions of them - at the end of the forth day, when it had taken him all of the previous time to work on just one small planet.

d. "And God set them [the stars] in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth". We know that the stars are not set in anything, and they are rather more than just light-givers (particularly as most cannot even been seen from earth). Why is god so ignorant about his own creation?

8. Thomas Paine: "When I am told that a woman called Mary said that she was with child without any co-habitation with a man, and that her betrothed husband Joseph said that an angel told him so [in a dream!] I have a right to believe them or not; such a circumstance requires a much stronger evidence than their bare word for it; but we have not even this - for neither Joseph nor Mary wrote any such matter themselves; it is only reported by others they said so - it is hearsay upon hearsay, and I do not choose to rest my belief upon such evidence."
Please explain why you believe that Mary was a virgin mother.

9. Please also explain why you believe that Jesus rose from the dead, and why the accounts in the bible of this event conflict.

10. Jesus apparently died for us, facing god's wrath in our place. Why did he have to do this? Why couldn't god forgive us anyway? Why does god - a perfect being - have negative, human-based emotions like anger and wrath? Is not the whole concept absurd?

11. Please attempt to justify eternal damnation. Surely even the most evil people who ever lived (Hitler, Stalin etc.) don't deserve to be horrifically punished for eternity (and I don't think many Christians have really thought about what eternity really is).


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Questions for most literalist Christians [Re: dblaney]
    #5594761 - 05/05/06 04:05 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Some of your questions are as absurd as the Biblical material you are refering to


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Questions for most literalist Christians [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5594775 - 05/05/06 04:10 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Some of your questions are as absurd as the Biblical material you are refering to




i agree, im surprised to see such a low quality post from dblaney. i used to have this list of incosistencies in literalist chistian beleifs that was far more well done this, but i cant remember think link to it now.

Edited by Deviate (05/05/06 04:14 PM)

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OfflineTheGus
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Re: Questions for most literalist Christians [Re: Deviate]
    #5594789 - 05/05/06 04:19 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

11. Please attempt to justify eternal damnation. Surely even the most evil people who ever lived (Hitler, Stalin etc.) don't deserve to be horrifically punished for eternity (and I don't think many Christians have really thought about what eternity really is).




Hitler is not going to hell, lucifer's daughter told me so...

and i am crazy but it doesnt mean im not right "Just because im paranoid that everyone hates me, doesn't mean they don't, ya see what i mean"


--------------------
"It is easier to teach a computer to play chess than to build a mudpie."Sherry Turkle Life on the Screen: Identity in the Age of the Internet
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts"-Einstein
:mrt: I pity the fool who break traffic laws with $870,000 of drugs in the car.      -mo0nlite_sonata
Psythos

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Offlinekotik
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Re: Questions for most literalist Christians [Re: Deviate]
    #5594795 - 05/05/06 04:22 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

literal Christians have only the Bible for answers, so the answers you get from these questions will only lead to more contradictions.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Questions for most literalist Christians [Re: dblaney]
    #5594799 - 05/05/06 04:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

How do you determine who deserves what, is there a table somewhere?

If you ask me the word "deserve" has no meaning, nobody deserves anything, we just get it or don't get it accoarding to someones choice


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Questions for most literalist Christians [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5594815 - 05/05/06 04:32 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Some of your questions are as absurd as the Biblical material you are refering to




Well hmph, they aren't my questions, they're from http://www.religionisbullshit.net/christianquestion.php. While I agree they aren't the most well thought out questions, I do think they are enough food for thought for the literalist Christians (if there are any here,  :tongue: ), hence the subject being questions for most literalist Christians...I'm well aware that most of you know better than this.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Questions for most literalist Christians [Re: Deviate]
    #5594819 - 05/05/06 04:35 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
i agree, im surprised to see such a low quality post from dblaney. i used to have this list of incosistencies in literalist chistian beleifs that was far more well done this, but i cant remember think link to it now.




Well if I surprised you by this post, I guess that means that most of my other posts are generally of higher quality, so I'll take this as a complement.  :grin:

Anyways, if you happen to come across that list I'd love to see it.

:sun:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Offlinefivepointer
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Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
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Re: Questions for most literalist Christians [Re: dblaney]
    #5595271 - 05/05/06 06:49 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I don't know if I qualify as a "literalist", because you have not defined the term.
I fully believe Jesus literally existed, and died, and rose again. While scripture is literally true, some of it is parabolic and figurative (depending on what your reading).


1. There are thousands of different religions in the world, and in the vast majority of cases people follow the dominant faith of the culture they were born into. Is it not arrogant and self-centred to think that your faith is the "true" one and all the others are false?

Just because someone is brought up in a particular "religion" that does that make it true? It is not arrogant to believe the truth.

2. What is the point of prayer? Surely your god knows what you are going to pray for beforehand - and has already decided on his course of action. Is it not absurd to think that you can persuade god to change his mind?

Because believers are commanded to pray, it is not our business to poke into the secret councils of God.

3. Why does god insist that you worship him? Is he insecure - or an egomaniac?

Because all of His attributes are glorious, and He is worthy to be worshipped.

4. Matthew 1:16 "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus."
Luke 3:23 "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli."
The bible is full of contradictions (for a large list see here) - explain how, even with just the small and fairly insignificant contradiction above, the bible can be the infallible word of god.


An excerpt from John Gill's Exposition on this verse:

Which was the son of Eli; meaning, not that Joseph was the son of Eli; for he was the son of Jacob, according to Mt 1:16, but Jesus was the son of Eli; and which must be understood, and carried through the whole genealogy, as thus; Jesus the son of Matthat, Jesus the son of Levi, Jesus the son of Melchi, &c. till you come to Jesus the son of Adam, and Jesus the Son of God; though it is true indeed that Joseph was the son of Eli, having married his daughter; Mary was the daughter of Eli: and so the Jews speak of one Mary, the daughter of Eli, by whom they seem to design the mother of our Lord: for they tell {b} us of one,...

5. [snip]
Please explain why the bible is referred to as the "good book".


Because the message is good news to those that believe it.

6. Thomas Paine was referring to the old testament in the above quote. Please explain why the god of the old testament (an angry, vengeful god, worthy of scorn not worship) - is so different from the god talked about in the new testament.

God is the same yesterday today and forever. Breakage of the law brings wrath, grace brings propitiation for that wrath. The OT shows what sin brings, while the NT shows what grace brings (rough answer).

[some questions snipped]

Please explain why you believe that Mary was a virgin mother.
9. Please also explain why you believe that Jesus rose from the dead, and why the accounts in the bible of this event conflict.


These facts are clearly stated in scripture.

10. Jesus apparently died for us, facing god's wrath in our place. Why did he have to do this? Why couldn't god forgive us anyway? Why does god - a perfect being - have negative, human-based emotions like anger and wrath? Is not the whole concept absurd?

Jesus died for His people, and all His people will hear the good news and be converted in time. Justice demands punishment for any unrighteousness, and this punishment is eternal damnation. God would cease to be just if some people were judged on a more lenient standard than others. The concept of a just God is absurd to those who have not been converted.


11. Please attempt to justify eternal damnation. Surely even the most evil people who ever lived (Hitler, Stalin etc.) don't deserve to be horrifically punished for eternity (and I don't think many Christians have really thought about what eternity really is).

Wrap your head around this, the absolute best of the best people who ever lived, all deserve eternal punishment. The problem is you are ignorant of God's righteousness, and God's standard, which is perfection.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Questions for most literalist Christians [Re: dblaney]
    #5595278 - 05/05/06 06:53 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

There dblaney! Now you have your answers.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Questions for most literalist Christians [Re: Icelander]
    #5595370 - 05/05/06 07:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Phew! I was starting to worry too.



--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Questions for most literalist Christians [Re: dblaney]
    #5595615 - 05/05/06 08:32 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
i agree, im surprised to see such a low quality post from dblaney. i used to have this list of incosistencies in literalist chistian beleifs that was far more well done this, but i cant remember think link to it now.




Well if I surprised you by this post, I guess that means that most of my other posts are generally of higher quality, so I'll take this as a complement.  :grin:

Anyways, if you happen to come across that list I'd love to see it.

:sun:




yes youre posts are generally quite good but now i realize you didnt write this one. anyway ill trty to find that document.

Edited by Deviate (05/05/06 08:33 PM)

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Questions for most literalist Christians [Re: dblaney]
    #5595809 - 05/05/06 09:21 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I like to have compassion for psychic Christians who aren't malicious to other people for the simple reason that not all people have the intuitive capabilities of Inner Knowing. Most are good people, and for some, they might even need the structure of literalism and legalism in their lives.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Questions for most literalist Christians [Re: fivepointer]
    #5595821 - 05/05/06 09:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
I don't know if I qualify as a "literalist", because you have not defined the term.
I fully believe Jesus literally existed, and died, and rose again.  While scripture is literally true, some of it is parabolic and figurative (depending on what your reading).




Don't worry, you qualify. :smirk:


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Questions for most literalist Christians [Re: Basilides]
    #5595879 - 05/05/06 09:34 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I agree, compassion is a wonderful thing to have.

By the way, I notice you have the Gospel of Thomas in your journal, and I'm about 2/3 of the way through the book, and I must say it's a great read.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Questions for most literalist Christians [Re: dblaney]
    #5595908 - 05/05/06 09:42 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

It's my favorite Gospel. :laugh:


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Questions for most literalist Christians [Re: dblaney]
    #5612046 - 05/10/06 09:48 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
1. There are thousands of different religions in the world, and in the vast majority of cases people follow the dominant faith of the culture they were born into. Is it not arrogant and self-centred to think that your faith is the "true" one and all the others are false?

Christianity teaches teh same values as other religions. I worship God and realize Jesus was his son, that does not preclude me for finding God's message given to other peoples. He sent messengers to all, the "christians" you are describing are hippocrites. Dont lump all with them.

2. What is the point of prayer? Surely your god knows what you are going to pray for beforehand - and has already decided on his course of action. Is it not absurd to think that you can persuade god to change his mind?

Jesus said something like "Woship in your closet. With only you and the father, but know that you cannot lie for he knows your needs before you ask." Or something very close to that. Basicly what you just said.

3. Why does god insist that you worship him? Is he insecure - or an egomaniac?

Worship is a very particular word people that makes people think of bowing down adn all that. Worship for me is taking a walk in nature, going on a date with a beautiful girl, taking care of my moms lawn. When you love God everything is part of his Glory, and woship is natural. When you love your wife do you not buy her jewerly and give her a massage and pamper her? God wants only your love, thats not egomanical.

4. Matthew 1:16 "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus."
Luke 3:23 "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli."
The bible is full of contradictions (for a large list see here) - explain how, even with just the small and fairly insignificant contradiction above, the bible can be the infallible word of god.

I never claimed the bible was the infallible word of God, and notice that GOD didnt say that either. I'm thinking that would be the churches line.

5. Thomas Paine: "Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon that the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel."
Please explain why the bible is referred to as the "good book".

Duality is reality, good AND bad. It is the good book not because it completelly good, but instead because it is filled with truth, and truth is good.

6. Thomas Paine was referring to the old testament in the above quote. Please explain why the god of the old testament (an angry, vengeful god, worthy of scorn not worship) - is so different from the god talked about in the new testament.

God has been many things just as I'm sure you have. Why is it that you cannot concieve God changing when ALL of his creation is in a state of Constant change. TImes were different back then, no one would believe a God without seeing his power. Look at you man, you dont believe in God, you havent seen his power. He had to make it clear to world.

Q7 (regarding creation)

a. "In the beginning God created the heaven and earth" ... what was god doing before "the beginning", and where did he reside?

I'm sure God has a God and that that God has a God, all the way to infinity. Look at us we have a God, and yet we are Gods to wildlife of our world. We move them about how we wish kill make slaves. It is no different

b. Explain how god made light, then separated light from darkness, BEFORE he had created the sun, moon and stars.

The sun is but one star man, if you read the science about the evolution of universe you'll find our sun is pretty far down the line, that were endless stars before ours. The big bang itself could have been light

c. Explain why "he made the stars also" - countless billions of them - at the end of the forth day, when it had taken him all of the previous time to work on just one small planet.

He took just as much time on every star and planet as he did on ours. The details are only given about ours, because for one thing early man did not even know there were other planets besides ours

d. "And God set them [the stars] in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth". We know that the stars are not set in anything, and they are rather more than just light-givers (particularly as most cannot even been seen from earth). Why is god so ignorant about his own creation?

Yet again you are confusing church understanding to Gods. God just gave us the story it was passed down thousands of times before it found its way into the bible. The stars are set in teh firmament of heaven if you look at it like einstien did I'm sure. that the fabric of reality is the firmament space-time.

8. Thomas Paine: "When I am told that a woman called Mary said that she was with child without any co-habitation with a man, and that her betrothed husband Joseph said that an angel told him so [in a dream!] I have a right to believe them or not; such a circumstance requires a much stronger evidence than their bare word for it; but we have not even this - for neither Joseph nor Mary wrote any such matter themselves; it is only reported by others they said so - it is hearsay upon hearsay, and I do not choose to rest my belief upon such evidence."
Please explain why you believe that Mary was a virgin mother.

The belief in Jesus does not hinge on this story. It is possible that he was a virgin birth(this has happened with lower animals in zoos, and is documented), but even if it was only added later to spice it up, It matters not. Jesus's teachings are what is important.

9. Please also explain why you believe that Jesus rose from the dead, and why the accounts in the bible of this event conflict.

Faith, and because the scripture had to be fufilled. sorry cant do you any better there. Again his teachings are most important the ressurection means little by comparison.

10. Jesus apparently died for us, facing god's wrath in our place. Why did he have to do this? Why couldn't god forgive us anyway? Why does god - a perfect being - have negative, human-based emotions like anger and wrath? Is not the whole concept absurd?

No of course not. God is a perfect being because he has Knowledge of EVERYTHING. he knows where a grain of sand is floaing the vacuum of deep space. Knowing everything means knowing the bad with the good. GOd is the sum of duality. And Jesus did not face God's wrath he faced Humanities wrath. And God DID forgive us anyways.

11. Please attempt to justify eternal damnation. Surely even the most evil people who ever lived (Hitler, Stalin etc.) don't deserve to be horrifically punished for eternity (and I don't think many Christians have really thought about what eternity really is).




Sure they do, for the simple fact that Darwin gave for natural selection. Only the strong survive. The bad apples have to go or they ruin the whole bushel man. Peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson

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