|
 Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
|
 zeronio
Stranger
Registered: 10/16/01
Posts: 2,349
Loc: Slovenia
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
 Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics]  [Re: Suntzu]
#1061489 - 11/18/02 01:21 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Did you give up your experiments with Cordyceps?
I wonder if mycelium grows only on proteine based substrates? It seems unlikely that this fungus spreads only from insect to insect. Maybe it has an asexual stage (like other ascomycetes) where it grows normally in the soil and only when a dead insect is encountered start to form sclerotia and sexual fruit bodies.
|
Anonymous
|
 Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: zeronio]
#1061759 - 11/18/02 04:09 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
this is one of the coolest threads i've seen to date...
|
r05c03
The Slug Scourge
Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 383
Loc: Indiana, US
Last seen: 19 years, 9 days
|
Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: zeronio]
#1063251 - 11/18/02 03:54 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
They do indeed have an asexual stage. The name of the imperfect stage is Paeciliomyces or something like. Atleast, that is what I found when I looked into this manner sometime last year.
--------------------
Listen! Do you smell something?
|
zeronio
Stranger
Registered: 10/16/01
Posts: 2,349
Loc: Slovenia
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: r05c03]
#1064840 - 11/19/02 01:01 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I found something. I have an impression that there are still mysteries in Cordyceps life cycle. The Paecilomyces was once placed in Penicillum genus. How does Cordyceps culture look like? Is it blue-green?
http://www.nju.edu.cn/foode/jun/b3.htm
In reply to:
Five bavterial strains hace been found daring its imperfect stage,They are as follows:
1.Mortieralla hepiali
2.Cephalosporium sinensis
3.Paecilomyces hepiali
4.P.sinensis
5.Hirsutella sinensis
Products made form the above 1.2.3 have been put into market,and the first,second third strains have been used in deep fermentation.
Some links I found:
http://www.naturalproducts.org/inpr/monographs_pdf/cordy_mono_A01.pdf
http://www.entomology.wisc.edu/mbcn/kyf403.html
http://www.botany.utoronto.ca/ResearchLabs/MallochLab/Malloch/Moulds/Paecilomyces.html
|
r05c03
The Slug Scourge
Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 383
Loc: Indiana, US
Last seen: 19 years, 9 days
|
Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: zeronio]
#1074640 - 11/21/02 05:31 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah, except I am not sure he refers to them as bavteria strains. The species he mentions are fungi in the imperfect group which is formed soley on the basis of them lacking a sexual stage. Sometimes they end up with a name for the sexual stage and imperfect stage because each is identified and characterized by a different person or at a different time. As far as Paecilomyces being a penicillium sp., it may have been at one time based on morphology or some other identifier such as genetic sequences, but these things change from time to time. It seems the researchers are found changing names...lumpers and splitters..
--------------------
Listen! Do you smell something?
|
Suntzu
Geek
Registered: 10/14/99
Posts: 1,396
Last seen: 14 days, 9 hours
|
Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: zeronio]
#1076665 - 11/22/02 11:07 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Zeronio; I should have updated this awhile back, my colonized grubs didn't stay colonized. I think the insides were not taken over by mycelium, or at least not taken over enough. They deliquesced into something like a mushy french fry. This took a few months, so if the conditions/soil were better-formulated it may have been a different story.
I don't know if I updated the whole silkworm fiasco, but I don't think I'm going to try that again. Well maybe.  Most of them. . .deliquesced. They need an incubator of some sort, at least up north. At the time my incubators were occupied, insect-free zones 
I think cordyceps can be fruited off of non-insect substrate. There is a company up in vancouver that fruits a cordyceps off of a formulated substrate. Before I invest any time in that I'd like to have a spore source. I don't know the original source of the culture, if it's from an insect-fruitbody it might have its genetic mind made up already.
Paecilomyces does look similar to penicillium, though they're easy to distinguish. I forget the term for the finger-like projections, both have them with chains at the ends. It's easy to see how they would originally relate the two. But it's all about the DNA; What's interesting is the possibility that cordyceps and paecilomyces are the same thing, two separate fruiting cycles. Many fungi have the asexual plus sexual thing going [so different from us ] and some of the most interesting of those are the systemic bad boys that produce those mycopathology photos that still creep me out. Just a cooincidence that a lot of the potential pathogenic ones [to people or insect] are dimorphic fungi? Even candida falls into this category somewhat.
It could just be that Paec/Cord. are so closely related that the molecular knife can't distinguish them yet. Haven't read much on the subject lately.
Stage 2 still elusive; may try again soon;
Edited by Suntzu (11/22/02 11:13 AM)
|
zeronio
Stranger
Registered: 10/16/01
Posts: 2,349
Loc: Slovenia
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: Suntzu]
#1081232 - 11/24/02 05:40 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Spores are probably very hard to get, but they must be the key to success.
I brought this thread up because I had an idea that maybe they don't spread only from insect to insect - they could have a more complex life cycle. I read about an plant pathogen fungus that changes 4 hosts and was once thought to be 4 different species.
How well does your culture grow on agar, grain or other non-protein substrates?
P.S. Don't give up. Your experiments are very interesting!
|
r05c03
The Slug Scourge
Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 383
Loc: Indiana, US
Last seen: 19 years, 9 days
|
Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: Suntzu]
#1081353 - 11/24/02 09:16 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
>>Paecilomyces does look similar to penicillium, though they're easy to distinguish. I forget the term for the finger-like projections, both have them with chains at the ends
The finger things are phailides
>>What's interesting is the possibility that cordyceps and paecilomyces are the same thing, two separate fruiting cycles.
Yes, from what I have read they are like other ascomycetes in that they produce asexual spores, and then for whatever reason (contact with other mating types, environmental conditions etc) it forms those large snake like stroma that contain the structures that produce the sexual spores.
Suntzu, I still have the culture you sent me last year. Like a slacker I have not gotten around to doing much experimentation. However, I am still believing that LIVE insect larvae need to actuall ingest some sort of propagating unit such as asexual spores (conidia). Further I think that it the fungus does not really start doing much, or atleast does not go into fruiting mode util the larvae pupates, at least most of the time. It would be nice if some one could hack those canadian guys and get their secret mix.....is it patented?
--------------------
Listen! Do you smell something?
|
Suntzu
Geek
Registered: 10/14/99
Posts: 1,396
Last seen: 14 days, 9 hours
|
Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: r05c03]
#1261236 - 01/30/03 07:54 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Well, I'm getting around to a little mad science again. Here's the plan, would like some feedback from those who have been incredibly informative so far
I'm going to break down and order some more silkworms. I still have quite a bit of the chow left. This could take a little time as I can't get started until March or so.
I am also going to order a few grams of whole 'wild' cordyceps from this place:
http://www.ancientway.com/Pages/Cordyceps.html
There should be 'infective' material in the tips, yes? No?
Two inoculations: First onto antibiotic agar, Second, a bit of it ground up and mixed in with the silkworm chow. This will [hopefully] give an internal inoculation as described earlier in this thread. I may try mealworms alongside, unsure.
This is going to require nurturing the silkworms a lot longer than I had before, a 10 gallon aquarium is the plan.
As far as inducing sclerotic conditions, the best I can come up with is a container put into the refrigerator. At least one of the links above has info on this. . .cool temperatures, low rH.
If the multispore culture attempt on agar is successful, I'd be willing to send some of the growth out to fellow experimenters. . .
|
r05c03
The Slug Scourge
Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 383
Loc: Indiana, US
Last seen: 19 years, 9 days
|
Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: Suntzu]
#1261428 - 01/30/03 08:46 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah, the ascospores should be in the tips, analogous to basidiospores from a mushroom.
I have seen picutres of fruitifications from the both catepillars and pupae. I always thought you could just bury pupae in some potting mix or vermiculite or something. Who knows.
do they form sclerotia?
I am thinking multispore is the way to go with this too.
What fun! Good luck
--------------------
Listen! Do you smell something?
|
r05c03
The Slug Scourge
Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 383
Loc: Indiana, US
Last seen: 19 years, 9 days
|
Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: r05c03]
#1261475 - 01/30/03 08:55 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Ya know, you might want to crush some up of the material in water and let the heavy stuff sink, The spores should stay more suspended you could then inoculate the plates with the water. Or, if you have the means, take the water off and concentrate the spores by centrifugation. Do you have a scope?
--------------------
Listen! Do you smell something?
|
r05c03
The Slug Scourge
Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 383
Loc: Indiana, US
Last seen: 19 years, 9 days
|
Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: r05c03]
#1261496 - 01/30/03 08:58 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
--------------------
Listen! Do you smell something?
|
 thescientist
Registered: 03/09/02
Posts: 807
Loc: Dade County
|
Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: Suntzu]
#1262853 - 01/30/03 05:01 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
cordyceps often attacks the pupae of Lepidoptera that are just under the surface of the ground. the fruit body sprouts out of the ground. perhaps let some of the pillars pupate then give it to them hard.you said it was odd that a mush has 2 sporulating phases. MANY fungi have sexual and asexual sporulation phases which are quite distinct. This makes it difficult to identify macro or microfungi that have 2 morphologically distinct spore bearing structures.
good luck, most importantly have fun
|
Anno
Experimenter
Registered: 06/17/99
Posts: 24,166
Loc: my room
Last seen: 4 days, 13 hours
|
Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: Suntzu]
#1765069 - 07/31/03 04:39 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
From http://www.mushworld.com/medicine/view.asp?cata_id=6200&vid=1542 (must be logged in)
"Growing Conditions for Cordyceps species
Writer: Gwang-po Kim / Date :2000-07-16 / hits: 245
Cordyceps sinensis can be used as food and medicine. In China and Japan, this mushrooms are highly valued is medicine or health food.
Until recently, the supply of the Cordyceps relied mostly on harvests of naturally grown mushrooms; however, as demand for the mushrooms shows a constant increase in the world market, the existing supply has become scarce.
There is an active movement for research and development of the mushroom resource in the fields of artificial culture, liquid fermentation, and application of new techniques.
Through artificial cultivation of Cordyceps mushrooms, which is a very complicated and difficult process, it is not easy to have mycellium formed because the complex environmental conditions that affect the host insects' ecological surroundings directly or indirectly must be regulated precisely, not to mention the ecological conditions suitabl e for the mushrooms.
*On occasions change in temperature, to a lower degree, is necessary.
The Cordyceps bacterium prefer relatively low temperature, about 15~20 C, and form sclerotium at a degree between 10~20 C, and stroma at 14~25 C.
It demands higher temperature for the stroma to grow on the ground surface, about 26~32 C, and spores are released at 28~32 C.
*Humidity conditions should meet each of the following conditions.
- Air humidity 80~90% for growth, stroma formation, and releasing of spores.
- 50~80% air humidity, and water content of ground 40% for hibernation of the infected host insect.
- For the growth of mycellium in the host's body, 60~70% humidity.
- Sclerotium can be formed only in dry environments, at about 10~20% humidity.
* As for air conditions, most of the Cordyceps bacterium are aerobes, but for some facultative anaerobes, oxygen should be regulated.
*Different light conditions are demanded according to different growth stages.
- Light is not required for spore germination or for mycellial growth.
- For the formation of sclerotium and stroma, a little bit of light is required.
*Acidity conditions
- Cordyceps grow in low-acid conditions.
- Mycellial growth takes place between pH 5.0~6.5 acidity, and it shows the fastest growth rate at pH 6.0~6.3. "
From http://www.mushworld.com/medicine/view.asp?cata_id=6200&vid=336 (must be logged in)
"The Life of Caterpilar Fungi and Its Cultivation
Writer: Hye-young Lee / Date :1999-01-01 / hits: 117
The size and shape of Caterpilar fungi
Because Caterpilar fungi vary greatly in shape and size, we will only discuss Caterpilar fungi that belong to the Ascomycetes class. The fruit bodies of the mushrooms consist of head parts and parts that look like sacks, and the head parts come in various shapes of a circle, a club, a cotton swab stick, coral reef, noodles, and a long oval. The length of the mushrooms also differ greatly, from only a few mm to longer than 10cm, and the color shows a wide variety of red, yellow, purple, black, green, white, orange, and olive. Some of the mushrooms are very soft and tender, while others are tough and solid on the surface.
Where can we find wild Caterpilar fungi?
There are some Caterpilar fungi that are found only in 3,000~4,000m high, mountainous regions like "Cordyceps sinensis", and there are others, that can be found in mountains not far from cities like "Cordyceps nutans". However, even if we go to places where Caterpilar fungi might grow, it is extremely difficult to spot them not only because of their tiny size, but also because the habitats of the mushrooms require very fastidious, complicated conditions. In other words, Caterpilar fungi are found near clean, humid valleys which are shadowed with broadleaf trees, and have humus soil with a layer of fallen leaves.
Some of the Caterpilar fungi that parasite on ground beetles, or larvae or imagoes of butterflies can be found in tree trunks, and the ones that parasite on ants, spiders, and dragonflies can be gathered from branches and leaves.
What season of the year do Caterpilar fungi develop the most?
Caterpilar fungi, after entering their hosts, absorb nutritional substances inside the bodies, and eventually form internal sclerotium that wholly occupy the inner parts of the hosts' bodies. When the time comes for mushrooms to form, the sclerotium grow into mushrooms on the outer skin of the dead insects.
The season suitable for mushroom formation would be from early summer to early autumn when temperature and humidity both increase, and especially the rainy season, when mushroom growth is accelerated.
Usually 1~2 months after the bacterium come out of the host insects' bodies, saprophytic spores or ascospores, located on the head parts of the mushrooms, are spread by wind and infect other insects to form new mushrooms.
The life of Caterpilar fungi
The process through which Caterpilar fungi eventually become mushrooms starts when the fungi, scattered on the ground stick to soft outer layers of respiratory, digestive organs and joints of live insects. The spores that have stuck to insect parts take out germinating pipes and penetrate through the outer skin into the bodies, and multiply themselves into countless mycelium, absorbing nutritional substances like protein, and fat from their hosts. By this time, the host insects die, and the corpses harden like mummies. The hypha in the dead hosts' bodies form hard sclerotium, and next year, when favorable conditions are provided, evolve into beautiful mushrooms.
The new generation of Caterpilar fungi begins, when the saprophytic spores or ascospores located on the head parts of the mushrooms, taken away by impact factors like wind, stick to other living insects' skin.
Artificial cultivation of Caterpilar fungus using insects
Caterpilar fungi generate, when they enter living host insects' bodies. For artificial mass-production of these insect-parasitic mushrooms, first of all, we need the technology to mass-produce insects, and secondly, we ought to have superior one that easily grow on the mass-produced insects. Thirdly, we must have the technology to form the mushrooms on the insects, and then, we need facilities and amenities for cultivation and production. These provided, artificial cultivation of Caterpilar fungi is possible.
Paecilomyces japonica
Cultivation of Caterpilar fungi using silkworms
Silk-reeling, which consists of raising silkworms at home, producing cocoons, and obtaining silk from the worms to make silk fabric, has been one of Korea's traditional industries. The silkworms are originally used for producing cocoons, but since they are insects, they can also be used as host insects for Caterpilar fungi production. Therefore, farmers in the silk-reeling business, with their technology and facilities, would be able to cultivate Cordyceps mushrooms well enough if they obtain spawn and fruit-body formation technology."
|
Anno
Experimenter
Registered: 06/17/99
Posts: 24,166
Loc: my room
Last seen: 4 days, 13 hours
|
Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: Suntzu]
#2378783 - 02/26/04 09:30 AM (20 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
So how are your worms doing?
|
Suntzu
Geek
Registered: 10/14/99
Posts: 1,396
Last seen: 14 days, 9 hours
|
Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: Anno]
#2388841 - 02/29/04 12:16 PM (20 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I haven't done much more with the culture I have; There are several doubts about what life stage of the organism is necessary to form the insect 'sclerotia'. I'd be a lot more confident if I knew the point source of this culture, and that it was closer to the original isolation. I suspect this culture has been passed around a lot, and indeed in my own hands its character has begun to change. This is how the jars colonize now:
The past two or three times the grain jars have done this. I don't think the jars are any more full, though I suppose it's possible. Anyway, my suspicion is that the culture is changing somehow. So before I try anything with silkworm larvae again [which is quite an endeavor in itself] I really want to have a multispore inoc. I tried to culture from some dried cordyceps I ordered, but no growth. Not a big surprise, I suppose.
Anyone have access to *fresh* cordyceps fruits?
|
Speeker
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 882
|
 Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: Suntzu]
#2388973 - 02/29/04 01:21 PM (20 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
an interesting patent about using silkworm as a host insect.
Cultivation of Paecilomyces sp. using silkworms
Cordyceps ophioglossoides
more patents:
A List of Patents Concerning Cordyceps sp
(at mushworld.com , must register)
Edited by speeker (03/01/04 03:28 PM)
|
Speeker
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 882
|
Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: Speeker]
#2406084 - 03/07/04 11:13 AM (20 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Inspiring Cordyceps spp images!
Cordyceps fruiting on rice cakes as well as on silkworm pupa cakes. 
Image MushWorld
.
|
Anno
Experimenter
Registered: 06/17/99
Posts: 24,166
Loc: my room
Last seen: 4 days, 13 hours
|
Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: Speeker]
#2406089 - 03/07/04 11:28 AM (20 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: Anno]
#2407075 - 03/08/04 12:47 PM (20 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
So hear are my thoughts. In nature they need a dry spell to form the "sclerotia" systs that then turn into the fruit body maybe during some humid time. I also was wondering, since these fungi feed on crude protene and fats if they could be cutivated on some media we havnt thought up yet maybe some kinda new agar made for growin bacteria. And I think some of these fungi are very insect specie specific. And since its an infectus bacteria why not make a liquid mycelium syringe with a super small needle and manualy infect each lil critter. then return them to a aquarium where they can live and die in a somewhat natural enviroment. 
|
|
Threaded
Previous
Index
Next
Edit 
Reply 
gordonoalberto23
1 2 3 all )
RogerRabbit
psyphon
doc34
Suntzu