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 Suntzu
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Registered: 10/14/99
Posts: 1,396
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 Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics]  [Re: gray1]
#597595 - 04/03/02 12:08 PM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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My attemps with the silkworms failed. They don't like to be pan-boiled at all. So it looks like mealworms are the way to go, at least for now. . .
Those ones that were colonized are sitting in a container of soil mixture, having been refrigerated for a week or so. They're getting moisture now, but no obvious changes yet.
I need to make a few hundred mealworm-mummies before I can make any serious variations/duplicates of experimental parameters. . .will get to it one of these days 
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DinoMyc
Ipsa scientiapotestas est
Registered: 11/13/99
Posts: 1,080
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
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Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: Suntzu]
#598962 - 04/04/02 07:06 PM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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hey, I really enjoy seeing people experimenting!
for worms, check out this guy
http://www.wormman.com/
as far as I know he is cheap and reliable..
did you try live innoculation of those guys?
did you try of a little h2o2 bath instead of heat?
beautiful!
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Suntzu
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Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: DinoMyc]
#599462 - 04/05/02 09:35 AM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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Cool site; Fortunately meal'worms' are in ready supply at the local pet store. I don't think the annelid-type worms would work so well as they're not insects. . .
Am planning on buying some more this weekend 
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r05c03
The Slug Scourge
Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 383
Loc: Indiana, US
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Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: Suntzu]
#599856 - 04/05/02 05:10 PM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hi. None of my references mention if Cordyceps produces conidia. If theu do produce conidia, could you try to produce conidia on agar, make a spore suspension and spray mulberry leaves which are then quickly eaten by the silk worms? Lacking spores could you fragment hyphae in a blender and apply those as a suspension to leaves and feed them to silk worms? If you kept the leaf chamber humid the fragmented hyphae should survive long enough to be eaten and possiblly cause infection. What about collecting spore and mixing them with fine ground corundum and rubbing the corrundum on the surface of living, soft little silk worms. The corundum is used mixed with spores or virus particle to damage leaf surfaces in plant pathology research to make infections take easier. Perhaps corundum could cause similar no fatal injury to silkworms while making them more susceptible to infection.
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 DreaMaTrix
Shaman I am
Registered: 02/11/02
Posts: 3,125
Loc: Falling into place
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Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: r05c03]
#600325 - 04/06/02 03:37 AM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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Anybody have a link to, or post a picture of the fruit??
This is very interesting, keep up the good work/experiments.
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Suntzu
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Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: DreaMaTrix]
#600564 - 04/06/02 01:15 PM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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Not a very good close-up or anything, just a quick google search. Seems that most pictures I've seen have a single fruitbody per larva.
R- Very good points, from the stuff I've looked at, Cordyceps is closely related to/confused with a species of Paecilomyces. That species definitely produces conidia, I've seen them under a scope! It seems odd to me that a fungus would have two sporulating 'phases', as it definitely sporulates after 'macro'-fruiting on larvae. If it does sporulate on agar, I've been handling this culture all wrong!!!!
One of the biggest pains with the silkworms is a)keeping them warm enough [though this may change with spring weather] and b) keeping their food from molding. The last thing any of us need is another contamination vector!
The ones I got came with this chow, which was basically a powder that you hydrate and microwave. I suppose you could try inoculating this stuff.
Right now, I'm leaning towards the super-mealworms as pictured in the beginning. They're the same size as adult silkworms and seem to colonize well. Other species of Cordyceps are successfully being fruited on non-larvae based substrates, so the species specificity is likely not the area on which to focus efforts. Could be wrong.
The real trick in this whole process is POST-colonization. From aaron's references it sounds not unlike morel cultivation--sclerotia-like development and initation.
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Suntzu
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Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: Suntzu]  1
#600569 - 04/06/02 01:20 PM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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Oh, and I forgot to mention one other reason for not being so hot on silkworms. . .
Inside the package from Mullberry Farms was a piece of paper saying that the ?USDA?--some agency could come to the shipping address 'during reasonable hours' and check to see what was being done with these potential environmental pests.
Homey don't play that.
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r05c03
The Slug Scourge
Registered: 01/06/02
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Loc: Indiana, US
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Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: Suntzu]
#600583 - 04/06/02 01:50 PM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hi as far as the fungus making two different sprore types, it is actually common. Especially for ascomycetes like Cordyceps. Many produce asexual spores in the tips of vegetative hyphae. This is the kind that would grow in culture. The second type of spore is the sexual spore. In cordyceps this is the spore that is produced from the larva. The thing is I have not been able to confirm if cordyceps makes an asexual spore, and if it does, whether or not it requires special conditions to form them, such as a light cycle or special nutrition. Silkworms eat mulbarry leaves, so come spring you might be able to get mulberry leaves, they are quite common in the suburbs of most of america, and mold might not be as problematic on those. As far as the USDA (United State Department of Agriculture), you have point......damn Feds.
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Suntzu
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Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: r05c03]
#600694 - 04/06/02 04:30 PM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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Damn, you're right. . .other examples are the dimorphic fungi. Well, someone must know. In any case, the asexual spores shouldn't produce anything genetically 'novel', should they? I mean, a colonized grub is a colonized grub, whether it is vegetative hyphae or an asexual spore that does the job, I assume . . .?
Also, I haven't read anything specific about the natural mechanism of infection. Is it through consumption? Or is it through attachment and penetration of the exoskeleton? Now that you bring it up, consumption makes more sense, but in these birdseed jars, I'm certain it was penetration.
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aaron
member
Registered: 10/17/99
Posts: 89
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 Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: Suntzu]
#600859 - 04/06/02 09:08 PM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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I haven't read anything specific about the natural mechanism of infection. Me either?
But catepillar physicalogy{i'm a bad speller}. All catepillars have openings, that are evenly spaced along the body, that can open and close. {like a stomata on the underside of a leaf} they open into tunnels that go throughout the whole body for air. I think the spores enters through one of these openings germinates grows through these open tunnels in the catepillar, and the catepillar dies from suffication. bummer
Edited by aaron (04/07/02 12:39 AM)
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AssHumper10K
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Registered: 11/11/01
Posts: 249
Loc: Up, Your, Ass
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Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: Suntzu]
#601114 - 04/07/02 05:23 AM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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Why not bake them?
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r05c03
The Slug Scourge
Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 383
Loc: Indiana, US
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Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: AssHumper10K]
#601166 - 04/07/02 07:11 AM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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I believe that I read somewhere that the presence of certain bacteria inside the host insect help with the infection/fruiting process. So baking, or anything may not work for this reason. As far as the post above, you may very well be correct, the spiracles on insect may be entry points for spores. I am not sure how large they are though.
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aaron
member
Registered: 10/17/99
Posts: 89
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Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: r05c03]
#601270 - 04/07/02 10:50 AM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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The opening can be seen with the eye, there are big enough for a spores to inter.
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ChromeCrow
one ancient mutha
Registered: 02/21/02
Posts: 1,887
Loc: Hoosier HELL
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Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: DreaMaTrix]
#601502 - 04/07/02 05:24 PM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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ISO: Orissa, Malabar, z strain
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SumGuy
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Registered: 07/26/01
Posts: 556
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Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: Suntzu]
#606135 - 04/12/02 06:41 AM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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I watched an interesting documentary the other day on how wasps reproduce and they too need a living host. They sting a caterpillar and inject it with thousands of eggs but the caterpillar is still alive but paralyzed and eventually the eggs hatch and grow right off the still living but paralyzed squiggly fuzzy worm. Perhaps if you could find something non toxic to paralyze worms with you could directly innoculate them. directly and bury them. I dont really know too much about this so I could be way off but from what I read you need a living host. This just triggered in my brain when I was watching the documentary.
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MeltingPenguin
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Posts: 2,138
Loc: new england
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Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: Suntzu]
#607755 - 04/14/02 02:06 AM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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I recently got hooked up with a culture (thanks dude :-) )
I'm going to try and use either kedimine(sp?) or amanita solution, to coat the oats, in order to keep the meal worms sedeated everytime they try to eat it. Hopefully this will keep them spaced long enough to get infected, and won't hurt the cordyceps mycelium....hopefully.
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ChromeCrow
one ancient mutha
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Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: Suntzu]
#611228 - 04/17/02 07:29 PM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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hmmmmmmmm, this is just a suggestion, and i will try it with my culture and post results. but on suntzu's silkworm link, they have silkworm eggs garrunteed to hatch, and silkworm chow. if you were to take 1/2 the substrate, and mix it in with the chow, place it on top of the normal substrate, and lay the eggs on top. or just under the chow/sub. wouldnt this help with a couple of the problems you have encountered?
1) the worms morph into beetles eventually--- doing it this way, you would have maximum time before they morph
2) the live worms eat the grain before they get inocculated--- the chow would give the mycelium more time to "grab onto" the worms
like i said i will be trying this, and will let ya'all know
btw, thanks for the culture!
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ISO: Orissa, Malabar, z strain
Edited by ChromeCrow (04/17/02 07:40 PM)
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r05c03
The Slug Scourge
Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 383
Loc: Indiana, US
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
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Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: ChromeCrow]
#612366 - 04/18/02 09:19 PM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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They do not morph into beetles. The morph into moths.
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Suntzu
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Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: r05c03]
#612846 - 04/19/02 11:02 AM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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Right, it's the mealworms that turn into beetles.
I've pretty much decided to stick with mealworms. The ease of pasteurization, availability, storage [they can hang out in the fridge for many weeks in little more than sawdust], make them quite suitable for experimentation.
I have tons of that chow, someone mentioned it might be a good agar ammendment, I'd have to agree but haven't tried it.
If you order those silkworms, two things to watch for:
1) the warning about surprise visits
2) the info on reducing the chances of the chow getting mold; That's a real downer and a real stinky mess.
Seeing some other Cordyceps species successfully cultivated on non-insect media make me think it's likely possible with sinensis, but even more likely that other insect species will work.
Anyway, just getting back into the Cordyceps game here, interested to see what other people can come up with.
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r05c03
The Slug Scourge
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 Re: Cordyceps, stage one complete! [pics] [Re: Suntzu]
#613106 - 04/19/02 05:09 PM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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I am not worried about surpirse visits. But given my current fungal projects and of course normal life stuff too I do not know if I could give the cordyceps the attention I think it will need. I think lepidoteran larvae will be best. Also, remember when we talked and you said that you had Paecilomyces contamination? I was reading some papers and they mentioned that Paecilomyces is the asexual spore producing stage of Cordyeps. They are the same organism. They have different names because they were discovered seperately. Did you already no this stuff?
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