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 Juke Adro
I love peach fluff
Registered: 04/06/08
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 Re: Sclerotia: Rye Grass Seed or Rice?  [Re: karlgray]
#17594822 - 01/23/13 11:40 AM (9 years, 10 months ago) |
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Cool 
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Cyberdog
The Architect
Registered: 12/04/16
Posts: 12
Loc: Kanagawa-ken, Japan 
Last seen: 3 months, 24 days
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 Re: Sclerotia: Rye Grass Seed or Rice? [Re: AnArKey]
#24169003 - 03/17/17 12:41 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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This is exactly what I am doing right now.
I live in japan, and Brown rice is all they have in this Livestock-less country. Whole brown rice has actually worked very well for spawn. It was a lot of guess work but mostly I never add enough moisture to crack the hull and expose the starch. So, this tek has me sceptical.
they just mentioned using a one-for-one ratio of rice to water if I do this.
Is it going to make the rice sticky?
It's going to make it hard to shake the jars and if i need to shakes them(there seems to be endless debate on that topic ugh..)
Also does the necessity change for shaking if you're using multi-spore inoculation or live culture?
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In many cases, incompetence does not leave people disoriented, perplexed, or cautious. Instead, the incompetent are often blessed with an inappropriate confidence, buoyed by something that feels to them like knowledge.
-Some Guy on the Internet, Dunning-Kruger effect
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blackout
Registered: 07/17/00
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Re: Sclerotia: Rye Grass Seed or Rice? [Re: Cyberdog]
#24170016 - 03/17/17 10:35 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cyberdog said:
It was a lot of guess work but mostly I never add enough moisture to crack the hull and expose the starch. So, this tek has me sceptical.
they just mentioned using a one-for-one ratio of rice to water if I do this.
Is it going to make the rice sticky?
Do you know how much water you added before? If soaking or cooking you can weigh rice before and after to figure out how much you added. Some people dry out grains to figure out the exact moisture content, rather than added moisture, but this is usually not needed.
The 1 to 1 ratio is presumably volumentric. This is quite low already. The 9er tek calls for 1.5 volume water to 1 volume rice.
The last rice I used for sclerotia was 180g(~180ml) water to 100g rice. Googling shows 1L of rice is 782g, so 100g is about 128ml, so my volumetric ratio was approx 1.4:1 water:rice. My rice was fairly shakeable at that.
To improve shakeability I have added popcorn to my rice jars. They are so hard its like ballbearings you get in cans of spraypaint, it breaks up the rice really well. Also if you leave plenty of room in your jars they are far easier to shake.
Quote:
Cyberdog said:
Also does the necessity change for shaking if you're using multi-spore inoculation or live culture?
If you are using an LC or LI you an add enough to make shaking unnecessary, however you might want to use less water in the grains in the first place. I found it works better if you cook grains to full moisture level first, and then dry them out, I microwave mine or they can be left on a heat pad, you weigh the jars before and after to figure out the moisture which was lost.
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
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Re: Sclerotia: Rye Grass Seed or Rice? [Re: blackout]
#24171560 - 03/18/17 02:03 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
blackout said:
To improve shakeability I have added popcorn to my rice jars. They are so hard its like ballbearings you get in cans of spraypaint, it breaks up the rice really well.
Nice idea! Thanks for sharing. I assume you're not fully hydrating the corn first so it stays hard?
RR
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blackout
Registered: 07/17/00
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Re: Sclerotia: Rye Grass Seed or Rice? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#24172179 - 03/18/17 08:59 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Nice idea! Thanks for sharing.
thanks, great to see you back around again!
Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
I assume you're not fully hydrating the corn first so it stays hard?
It was likely 100g water to 100g popcorn, so fully hydrated and higher than some would use. Looking at notes it could have been as low as 71g water to 100g popcorn, which is still about 50% water content (including natural water) -but I know most of mine were prepped 1:1 by weight at that time.
I have tried PCing dry and lowly hydrated grains before and found they contam easy. I figure if they are very dry its almost approaching dry heat sterilization, I think the more moisture the better to effectively sterilize, and we know popcorn is quite prone to contams. I always noticed how popcorn was very easy to shake up, and like a jar of beads.
Also I wanted to grow on the popcorn so it would need regular hydration, I was actually doing G2G from popcorn to the rice. I only have a small PC and my idea was that I could process several popcorn jars for extended times to ensure its properly treated. Then I could steam jars of rice -or process them for shorter times than popcorn in my PC as its widely accepted that rice is easier to treat and can get away with shorter times.
I was filling rice jars maybe 2/3rd full, so you could get a half decent shaking of them initially, then when broken up a bit I was topping up more with popcorn G2G and it was well able to break it up and disperse itself evenly in the rice jar. Ideally it would not need a second shaking after that.
If adding popcorn to the rice jars I would have to treat them as long as the popcorn on their own. Instead of popcorn the jars could be filled with something else. I used ball bearings in rice jars before but they were large and I worried I was going to break the jar when shaking.
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Cyberdog
The Architect
Registered: 12/04/16
Posts: 12
Loc: Kanagawa-ken, Japan
Last seen: 3 months, 24 days
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Re: Sclerotia: Rye Grass Seed or Rice? [Re: blackout]
#24173916 - 03/19/17 01:17 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Fantastic! so, On this topic:
I also tried to do a LC with normal methods that worked for me in the past with all Cubensis.
1:Honey to 1: Maple syrup at one teaspoon per 200ml- PC for 20 min and shook the syringe and inoculated. Easy, except after 2 weeks no growth but the smallest contam (has the look of Trichoderma underwater)
Question:
Did I wait long enough of P. Mexicana Jalisco?
did I caramelize the sugar?
also, why does caramelized sugar not work for Fungi?
Do I need to incubate the LC jars? I know that this has been debunked for Cubensis but this is new territory for me.
Is my sugar content right?
thank you everyone! This has all given me the confidence to press on! i'm just going to load up some rice and water at in the pressure cooker and see what happens?!! it could be good! will post results.
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In many cases, incompetence does not leave people disoriented, perplexed, or cautious. Instead, the incompetent are often blessed with an inappropriate confidence, buoyed by something that feels to them like knowledge.
-Some Guy on the Internet, Dunning-Kruger effect
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Cyberdog
The Architect
Registered: 12/04/16
Posts: 12
Loc: Kanagawa-ken, Japan
Last seen: 3 months, 24 days
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Re: Sclerotia: Rye Grass Seed or Rice? [Re: blackout] 1
#24174035 - 03/19/17 03:46 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
blackout said:
Quote:
Cyberdog said:
It was a lot of guess work but mostly I never add enough moisture to crack the hull and expose the starch. So, this tek has me sceptical.
they just mentioned using a one-for-one ratio of rice to water if I do this.
Is it going to make the rice sticky?
Do you know how much water you added before? If soaking or cooking you can weigh rice before and after to figure out how much you added. Some people dry out grains to figure out the exact moisture content, rather than added moisture, but this is usually not needed.
The 1 to 1 ratio is presumably volumentric. This is quite low already. The 9er tek calls for 1.5 volume water to 1 volume rice.
The last rice I used for sclerotia was 180g(~180ml) water to 100g rice. Googling shows 1L of rice is 782g, so 100g is about 128ml, so my volumetric ratio was approx 1.4:1 water:rice. My rice was fairly shakeable at that.
HAHA! so this is what happend:
blackout, like I said that had me a little sceptical. I have a very accurate scale. well this is exactly 180g water and 100g organic brown rice thrown into the PC for 90 min. Is this gelatinous cake what I want to grow sclerotia in?
please correct me.
I seriously want to get the whole "one and done" method down(is that a thing?) where you measure out exactly how much moisture you want and then cook.
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In many cases, incompetence does not leave people disoriented, perplexed, or cautious. Instead, the incompetent are often blessed with an inappropriate confidence, buoyed by something that feels to them like knowledge.
-Some Guy on the Internet, Dunning-Kruger effect
Architect
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blackout
Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 5,187
Last seen: 1 month, 1 day
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Re: Sclerotia: Rye Grass Seed or Rice? [Re: waixingren]
#24183975 - 03/23/17 02:10 AM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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That is not looking good (but might actually work, I will get to this later).
I do not just add water to rice and PC, I cook the rice first, as said
Quote:
waixingren said:
9er tek basicly. http://www.shroomery.org/index.php/par/7923/pag/3
cook like you're gonna eat it then pc.
I microwave my rice in shallow containers, and add a little more water as time goes on, to account for the water being boiled off, this is why I weigh my containers and rice, to easily monitor moisture levels. I microwave rice in shallow containers so it does not absorb too much water.
When you add grains to water in a jar and PC the bottom grains will get too hydrated and the top ones can be left dry. So in your jar the lower ones will take on water and explode and make a starchy mess.
Another way is to cook the rice in excess water and take it out and strain and weigh while its cooking, keeping the hot water. If it is not up to the weight it should be then dumped back into the water and cooked again, i.e. add 100g to lots of water and when it is 280g you know you have added 180g water. Some weight will be lost to the water, i.e. starches in the water so you can go a little less, like 275g rather than 280g. This can result in rice that is even easier to shake as you are rinsing some of the sticky starch off.
When cooked I fluff it up well and add to jars to be heat treated again.
However the mushy mess could well work. I got my 180ml recipe from the text in the first post.
http://www.fungifun.org/docs/mushrooms/Psilocybe/CULTIVATION%20AND%20ANALYSIS%20OF%20PSILOCYBE%20SPECIES%20AND%20AN%20INVESTIGATION%20OF%20GALERINA%20STEGLICHI.htm
Quote:
EXPERIMENTAL:
The strain of Psilocybe mexicana was obtained from the "underground mushroom movement" of the U.S.A. A successful fruiting experiment on rye grass seed (Lolium sp.) water mixture by using a casing layer (POLLOCK, 1977; STAMETS & CHILTON, 1983) and the subsequent microscopic examination of the few fruit bodies (GUZMAN, 1983) confirmed the identity of the species. Mycelium was kept as a stock culture on 4% malt agar.
Cotton - plugged 500 ml Erlenmeyer flasks were filled with 100 g grain and 180 ml water, sterlised by autoclaving, cooled, inoculated from stock cultures and incubated at 23 C in darkness to promote the formation of sclerotia. Rye grain, sfot rice grain and rye grass seed were used, respectively. Fruit bodies of Psilocybe natalensis (leg. O'Neill's cottage, Natal-South Africa, Jan. 22, 1994) were dried at 20-40 C.
Possible present residual water was removed from the mushrooms by freeze drying. Mycelium obtained from spore prints (STAMETS & CHILTON, 1983) was also kept as a stock culture on 4% malt agar. The mycelium from a cultivation on 100 ml agar was analysed after 4 weeks of cultivation.
Mycelium from Psilocybe azurescens (STAMETS & GARTZ, 1995) on 4% malt agar was used to inoculate a rye grain/water mixture identically to the cultivation of Psilocybe mexicana. After 3 weeks cultivation 500 g of sawdust soaked with water in plastic bag was inoculated with the mycelia on grain (STAMETS & CHILTON, 1983). The duration of the spawn run was 4 weeks.
In March commercial garden mulch in a shady outdoor bed was spawned with the mycelia on sawdust. A weekly water to keep the moisture content high. In September of the same year about 200 mushrooms appeared. Some were dried for anaylsis in the same way as Psilocybe natalensis.
Dried fruit bodies of Galerina steglichii from (BESL, 1993) were also analysed. It was possible to isolate a strain from spores on 6% malt agar. The extraction procedures of mushrooms and mycelia as well as the analysis by using HPLC and TLC are described elsewhere (GARTZ, 1989, 1991b).
They say nothing about precooking, and the way they word it this does sound like they simply add it like you did.
I cannot recall seeing people growing sclerotia on jars looking like yours, but the second reason I think it still might be OK is since Sporeworks, who developed several of the sclerotia types available today use to see bags for growing sclerotia, this was before most sellers distanced themselves from things like that.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/736237
Quote:
Uninoculated Philospher's Bag - Consistancy is like modeling clay and appears to consist mostly of rice. Syringe passed through the injection port and easily into the substrate. When the inoculate was added it flowed out of the substrate and into the space between the substrate block and the bag. I used a full 10 cc syringe since I had it available and I wanted to speed things up. A few spots of growth on the surface of the substrate were visible in 4 days at 85F and quickly spread. It reminds me of mycelium growing on the surface of an agar plate.
so it sounds like it was a starchy clump of rice with other additives. As the bag could be massaged it was easier to mix around. Your jar might never fully colonise, but I do reckon it could make use of the uncolonised areas as a source of moisture.
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