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shrooma
Did you hear therumour?


Registered: 05/21/02
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In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread
#5607810 - 05/09/06 08:24 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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This is not just referring to the following quote but the whole thread. I just took this quote coz it was the last one on the last page ATTOW.
Quote:
Feelers said: The reason I have "intollerace" for christians, is because they have come to what I can describe as an incorrect following in logic.
Im a science guy - If you tell me Jesus came back to life I want some evidence. I have no problem with it, but I want some scientific evidence.
Why is that so much to ask? I mean to me I cant believe that people would follow something that has so little proof going for it. I suppose I put them in the same box as a person who tells me that your left shoe is preventing you from being attacked by tigers. No proof, but its worked until now. It just isnt logical. Why would you run your life based on a non logical conclusion?
The thing is you have to have faith because otherwise the whole thing falls appart. Why should you have faith in a character in a book?
Can you accept that it might be wrong? Can you see that "Faith" could be used to deal with the huge logical problems faced by these beliefs? Anything in science can be disprooven, its mearly a logical way to examine our existance, using our past to predict our future. And if its broke - dont have Faith, fix it!.
 I have a Christian friend, and would call him a logical, but when it comes to religon, I can tell he knows it doenst make sense, but he carries on regardless.
My question is what makes you people despise the fact of religion so much? What is it exactly that makes Aethiests hate christians so much? It seems that Aethiests hate christians just as much as you're grandmother hate's people who uses drugs.
I'll start of with I'm Christian. No I wasn't brainwashed as a child, I found God myself. No I don't go to church, no I don't recite phrases from the bible and no I don't even really read the bible. Yes I use drugs (occassionally). But I pray each night and I have a personal connection with God.
As for the whole "Proof" matter I BELEIVE that if there was proof then that would make things far too easy. Lets just assume the whole God thing is correct, and God wants to find out who is faithful to the idea of his existence and who isn't. Now in order to have faith you need to do so without "Proof". Get me? If god just came to earth tomorrow, performed some miracles and proved his existence then obviously everyones gonna go "Oh ok he's real I'll believe it now that i see it" but these people aren't believing through faith, they are believing because they can't possibly believe anything other than that.
Another misconception is that people think GOD is this big dude with a beard who sits in a throne somewhere up in the sky. Who says he isn't just a form of energy. Who says god simply isn't the idea of Love. The fact is it doesn't matter what he looks like.
I also think it's a bit hypocritical to celebrate Christmas and Easter if you don't believe in religion. You can't say oh yeah Jesus and all that shits a load of crap, now lets trade some presents or lets trade some easter eggs. Why would you do that? Because everyone else is doing it? 
I should also add that there is more evidence that supports Jesus Christ than there is that supports Julius Ceaser. Who doesn't believe in Ceaser? Remember people just because you can't see something or you can't work out how something works doesn't mean its not there (no matter how much your brain wants to believe that). I was speaking to a friend the otherday (who is not religious) and his mum works in a nursing home and she says that the old people who are religious always die with a smile on their face, the aethists suffer terribly and are always afraid of death. Not that thats the reason why I'm religious. From everyone I've met that has truly devoted themselves to god, they seem to glow, they're ALWAYS fukin happy - they say it's like being on some drug 24/7 - i rekon that's pretty damn cool.
Over the years Science is continually being proven wrong and new theory's are being produced to replace old ones. Fuck people used ot think the world was flat. Although in 2000 years nobody has been able to DISprove the bible. Not one.
Finally I would like to add that I'm not on a mission to convert anyone. If you don't want to share my beliefs that's fine, it's your life and YOU'RE in charge. I'm not going to criticise you or call you stupid or anything like that. But all I ask is that you (aethiests) also respect anyone who chooses to take part in a relion. Stop calling us idiots and morons simply because you don't believe. Obviously nobody can prove either side right or wrong so it's all a matter of belief. Thankyou for reading this far and sorry If I offended anyone in anyways - it was unintentional
peace
Shrooma 
Finally I might add that some people say religion is an easy way out of things ie it wraps everything up in a nice little package. Well I also have a very Scientific mind and for a while I struggled with the fact of God because to me it seemed a lot EASIER to believe that religion was made up in out minds to comfort us. To make us think there's more than there is. So we think someone is watching out for us. To me THIS seems like the easy way out, it takes a lot more strength to place faith in something you haven't seen. But then I got thinking that if God IS real then he definately would have wanted it to be this way. He would want to make it seem a lot easier by this time and age to believe Science. That way he could find out who the TRUE believers are.
I think it proves that God has a sense of humour, you know. He says to his angels "Alright alright guys lets see who down there REALLY has it in them to believe. Lets throw down some dude named Charles Darwin and when he grows up we'll give him the idea of evolution and get him to spread it round the world. This should be interesting" 
Once again thankyou for reading this far. I don't want this to turn in to an arguement. Just a place for people to keep an open mind and to accept other peoples opinions.
-------------------- "[More than] half the people in federal prison are there for drug offences. We're arresting half a million people a year for possessing marijuana. We're locking up kids sometimes for life for their first drug offence. We have no room in our prisons for rapists and child molesters and murderers cause we're filling them up with these non violent drug offenders." - Steven Duke, Yale Law School on 'Hooked: Illegal Drugs and How They Got That Way' -
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EmptySpace
Stranger
Registered: 04/20/06
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread [Re: shrooma]
#5607829 - 05/09/06 08:34 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I do not hate anybody. I used to be Roman Catholic, but now I am just independent of all religious affiliations. I have no problem in what people believe, and how the spend their sundays. What bothers me about Christians, is the fact that they commercialize morality to such a great extent, and yet do not practice it.
The conservative government, in large part, is controlled by christian and "born again" ideology. I just do not like the fact that I have some bible thumper telling me what to do. I do not believe in your ideology, do not tell me that I am immoral, and do not tell me what to do. Believe what you want to believe, but do not impose christian "morality" on me.
I am sorry this might seem like I am attacking you, but I mean to attack the global Christian Community. Peace.
-------------------- We can't stop here - This is bat country. -Duke--Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
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Animals
Just Danson inthe Dark


Registered: 10/27/05
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread [Re: shrooma]
#5607864 - 05/09/06 08:52 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
shrooma said:
My question is what makes you people despise the fact of religion so much?
You just answered your own question.
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shrooma
Did you hear therumour?


Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 499
Loc: Near the exit of the entr...
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread [Re: Animals]
#5607881 - 05/09/06 09:01 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Animals said:
Quote:
shrooma said:
My question is what makes you people despise the fact of religion so much?
You just answered your own question.
sorry I'm not too god with terminology. By fact i meant idea. Sorry.
-------------------- "[More than] half the people in federal prison are there for drug offences. We're arresting half a million people a year for possessing marijuana. We're locking up kids sometimes for life for their first drug offence. We have no room in our prisons for rapists and child molesters and murderers cause we're filling them up with these non violent drug offenders." - Steven Duke, Yale Law School on 'Hooked: Illegal Drugs and How They Got That Way' -
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shrooma
Did you hear therumour?


Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 499
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread [Re: EmptySpace]
#5607887 - 05/09/06 09:04 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
EmptySpace said: ................................I am sorry this might seem like I am attacking you, but I mean to attack the global Christian Community. Peace.
no no this is good. I see where you are coming from, and I don't agree with a lot of the way some christian communities try to force it onto people. I believe it's something people have to decide for themselves.
-------------------- "[More than] half the people in federal prison are there for drug offences. We're arresting half a million people a year for possessing marijuana. We're locking up kids sometimes for life for their first drug offence. We have no room in our prisons for rapists and child molesters and murderers cause we're filling them up with these non violent drug offenders." - Steven Duke, Yale Law School on 'Hooked: Illegal Drugs and How They Got That Way' -
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate


Registered: 09/20/05
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread [Re: Animals]
#5607892 - 05/09/06 09:06 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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It is perplexing to me that one would allow himself to go through life filtering every experience through one worldview. You say you found God, and judging from your assertion that you are a Christian, you believe him to be the God whose son was Jesus Christ born of a virgin. Far be it from me to say that your revelation was untrue. In the next few minutes someone will have a profound revelation that Islam is the One True Faith; someone else, Zoroastrianism. I have yet to meet a Christian who has disproven the existence of the DMT Elves, or a yogi who can demonstrate that Mohammed was not the Divine Prophet. Why limit yourself? We live in an unfathomably strange world that offers so many realms of experience and paths to enlightenment. I just can't conceive of God looking down on his children and thinking, "Hurry up and pick the right one."
Edited by Lion (05/09/06 09:13 AM)
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shrooma
Did you hear therumour?


Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 499
Loc: Near the exit of the entr...
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread [Re: Lion]
#5607912 - 05/09/06 09:14 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
bug said: It is perplexing to me that one would allow himself to go through life filtering every experience through one worldview. You say you found God, and judging from your assertion that you are a Christian, you believe him to be the God whose son was Jesus Christ born of a virgin. Far be it from me to say that your revelation was untrue. In the next few minutes someone will have a profound revelation that Islam is the One True Faith; someone else, Zoroastrianism. Why limit yourself? We live in an unfathomably strange world that offers so many realms of experience and paths to enlightenment; why pigeonhole yourself? I just can't conceive of God looking down on his children and thinking, "Hurry up and pick the right one."
Because as a christian I believe that this isn't the only life we will experience. I believe that this is only the test (or 'life') that is the entrance to the rest of our existence. Just a very small section of our existence.
It's like putting a child in a room full of fruit and chocolates and lollies. Then saying to him/her 'You may only eat the fruit in this room for the period of time you stay here. If you do that then you will be able to eat any food you desire when you leave this room but if you choose to eat the other confectionary in this room then once you leave you will only ever be allowed to eat fruit.'
Or try the story of willy wonka and the chocolate factory.
I must apologise in advance I enjoy using metaphors although I am not very good at producing them.
-------------------- "[More than] half the people in federal prison are there for drug offences. We're arresting half a million people a year for possessing marijuana. We're locking up kids sometimes for life for their first drug offence. We have no room in our prisons for rapists and child molesters and murderers cause we're filling them up with these non violent drug offenders." - Steven Duke, Yale Law School on 'Hooked: Illegal Drugs and How They Got That Way' -
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bongoboy2000
Bongoboy2000

Registered: 02/07/04
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread [Re: Lion]
#5607940 - 05/09/06 09:24 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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well said, bug! I've never had a religious awakening, but to me, a mushroom (or salvia) trip rivals any religious tale I've ever heard. The experience can profoundly change anyone's view of the universe, christian or not. Oddly, god seems to thrive in fields covered in cow shit..
-------------------- ...I got nothin..
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HeadTripVertigo
at least I'm housebroken



Registered: 05/07/06
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread [Re: shrooma]
#5607952 - 05/09/06 09:29 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
shrooma said: This is not just referring to the following quote but the whole thread. I just took this quote coz it was the last one on the last page ATTOW.
Quote:
Feelers said: The reason I have "intollerace" for christians, is because they have come to what I can describe as an incorrect following in logic.
Im a science guy - If you tell me Jesus came back to life I want some evidence. I have no problem with it, but I want some scientific evidence.
Why is that so much to ask? I mean to me I cant believe that people would follow something that has so little proof going for it. I suppose I put them in the same box as a person who tells me that your left shoe is preventing you from being attacked by tigers. No proof, but its worked until now. It just isnt logical. Why would you run your life based on a non logical conclusion?
The thing is you have to have faith because otherwise the whole thing falls appart. Why should you have faith in a character in a book?
Can you accept that it might be wrong? Can you see that "Faith" could be used to deal with the huge logical problems faced by these beliefs? Anything in science can be disprooven, its mearly a logical way to examine our existance, using our past to predict our future. And if its broke - dont have Faith, fix it!.
 I have a Christian friend, and would call him a logical, but when it comes to religon, I can tell he knows it doenst make sense, but he carries on regardless.
My question is what makes you people despise the fact of religion so much? What is it exactly that makes Aethiests hate christians so much? It seems that Aethiests hate christians just as much as you're grandmother hate's people who uses drugs.
I'll start of with I'm Christian. No I wasn't brainwashed as a child, I found God myself. No I don't go to church, no I don't recite phrases from the bible and no I don't even really read the bible. Yes I use drugs (occassionally). But I pray each night and I have a personal connection with God.
As for the whole "Proof" matter I BELEIVE that if there was proof then that would make things far too easy. Lets just assume the whole God thing is correct, and God wants to find out who is faithful to the idea of his existence and who isn't. Now in order to have faith you need to do so without "Proof". Get me? If god just came to earth tomorrow, performed some miracles and proved his existence then obviously everyones gonna go "Oh ok he's real I'll believe it now that i see it" but these people aren't believing through faith, they are believing because they can't possibly believe anything other than that.
Another misconception is that people think GOD is this big dude with a beard who sits in a throne somewhere up in the sky. Who says he isn't just a form of energy. Who says god simply isn't the idea of Love. The fact is it doesn't matter what he looks like.
I also think it's a bit hypocritical to celebrate Christmas and Easter if you don't believe in religion. You can't say oh yeah Jesus and all that shits a load of crap, now lets trade some presents or lets trade some easter eggs. Why would you do that? Because everyone else is doing it? 
I should also add that there is more evidence that supports Jesus Christ than there is that supports Julius Ceaser. Who doesn't believe in Ceaser? Remember people just because you can't see something or you can't work out how something works doesn't mean its not there (no matter how much your brain wants to believe that). I was speaking to a friend the otherday (who is not religious) and his mum works in a nursing home and she says that the old people who are religious always die with a smile on their face, the aethists suffer terribly and are always afraid of death. Not that thats the reason why I'm religious. From everyone I've met that has truly devoted themselves to god, they seem to glow, they're ALWAYS fukin happy - they say it's like being on some drug 24/7 - i rekon that's pretty damn cool.
Over the years Science is continually being proven wrong and new theory's are being produced to replace old ones. Fuck people used ot think the world was flat. Although in 2000 years nobody has been able to DISprove the bible. Not one.
Finally I would like to add that I'm not on a mission to convert anyone. If you don't want to share my beliefs that's fine, it's your life and YOU'RE in charge. I'm not going to criticise you or call you stupid or anything like that. But all I ask is that you (aethiests) also respect anyone who chooses to take part in a relion. Stop calling us idiots and morons simply because you don't believe. Obviously nobody can prove either side right or wrong so it's all a matter of belief. Thankyou for reading this far and sorry If I offended anyone in anyways - it was unintentional
peace
Shrooma 
Finally I might add that some people say religion is an easy way out of things ie it wraps everything up in a nice little package. Well I also have a very Scientific mind and for a while I struggled with the fact of God because to me it seemed a lot EASIER to believe that religion was made up in out minds to comfort us. To make us think there's more than there is. So we think someone is watching out for us. To me THIS seems like the easy way out, it takes a lot more strength to place faith in something you haven't seen. But then I got thinking that if God IS real then he definately would have wanted it to be this way. He would want to make it seem a lot easier by this time and age to believe Science. That way he could find out who the TRUE believers are.
I think it proves that God has a sense of humour, you know. He says to his angels "Alright alright guys lets see who down there REALLY has it in them to believe. Lets throw down some dude named Charles Darwin and when he grows up we'll give him the idea of evolution and get him to spread it round the world. This should be interesting" 
Once again thankyou for reading this far. I don't want this to turn in to an arguement. Just a place for people to keep an open mind and to accept other peoples opinions.
you made a whole new thread to defend your religion when you could have just posted in the existing thread. that's so typically christian. 
I'm sure you'll probably jump up and take offense to that like all the rest of the christians do, before actually analyzing it and thinking about it. it's quite obviously a facetious comment, to spell it out for you. as is this whole reply up until this point.
the important thing that everyone(or almost everyone) seems to miss, is that religion is not important. what makes any of the "stock religions" better than the other? why, does society force you to chose one of them? who is to say that they're right? what should be happening is that people should be encouraged to believe in what they want. then there will be no religion, because each person will have their own ideas(and they will only be ideas). of course this would require the majority of humanity to take off their wool(that was a relatively clever pun where I basically called people sheep; ie following the flock. you christians might not have gotten that lest I explained it.)
religion is not important. faith IS. it doesn't matter what you believe in. you could believe that killing people is great and have faith in your morals. killing people is universally considered wrong, but that's not the point. the point is that you have your own thing going and you're not following everyone else. you believe what you believe. organized religion doesn't give you this chance(not the chance to kill people...that was just an example of the negative extreme to better prove the point here), it simply has you following something that you can't really believe in your soul, because they're not YOUR beliefs. they're your adopted beliefs, which you may strongly agree with, but they can never be yours.
-------------------- TACOS LIKE A MOTHERFUCKER
Edited by HeadTripVertigo (05/09/06 09:39 AM)
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate


Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread [Re: HeadTripVertigo]
#5607986 - 05/09/06 09:38 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
shrooma said: Because as a christian I believe that this isn't the only life we will experience. I believe that this is only the test (or 'life') that is the entrance to the rest of our existence. Just a very small section of our existence.
It's like putting a child in a room full of fruit and chocolates and lollies. Then saying to him/her 'You may only eat the fruit in this room for the period of time you stay here. If you do that then you will be able to eat any food you desire when you leave this room but if you choose to eat the other confectionary in this room then once you leave you will only ever be allowed to eat fruit.'
Or try the story of willy wonka and the chocolate factory.
I must apologise in advance I enjoy using metaphors although I am not very good at producing them.
I am familiar with the concept of the Christian afterlife, but I find your metaphor unsettling to say the least.
My basic qualm is your off-hand rejection of the "chocolates and lollies". This is precisely what I mean when I say "filtering your experience through one worldview". How have you convinced yourself that Christianity is the only path to enlightenment and the afterlife? I could spend about 15 minutes in the Religion forum here and find people who exclusively follow the tenets of Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism and Shroomism ( ). How can you reject these people, many of whom have come to their revelations in a way similar to your own, as lollie-grabbers, and reserve for yourself the title of 'fruit-indulger' (an unfortunate metaphor for a Christian, I might add ) because you deem yourself to have found the right one.
My metaphor for religion would be something like this:
God plants a seed in the earth, out of which springs the most divine tree, whose fruits endow any who eat them with a glimpse of the Love and Glory of God. Adam and Eve take the fruits of this plant with them for sustenance when they are banished from Eden. Over time, as humans multiply, the seeds are carried to far corners of the world, where the trees they bears begins take different shapes, each of which offers succelent fruit (though not as succelent nor as divine as the original fruits). Different factions of humans begin to appear, divided over which plant bears the sweetest fruit. Millions are slaughtered because they reject the notion that other factions' fruits are sweeter than theirs. But what none of them realizes is that all of these trees came from the same seed, and now they are sickly-sweet and offer only a shadow of the divinity that was before their greatest virtue.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
Edited by Lion (05/09/06 09:39 AM)
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shrooma
Did you hear therumour?


Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 499
Loc: Near the exit of the entr...
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread [Re: HeadTripVertigo]
#5608088 - 05/09/06 10:08 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
HeadTripVertigo said:
you made a whole new thread to defend your religion when you could have just posted in the existing thread. that's so typically christian. 
Perhaps so, but the reason I did it wasn't to defend my religion, but rather to have my own personal questions answered.
Quote:
I'm sure you'll probably jump up and take offense to that like all the rest of the christians do, before actually analyzing it and thinking about it. it's quite obviously a facetious comment, to spell it out for you. as is this whole reply up until this point.
I am not jumping up and taking offence, I appreciate your imput. I will analyze your comments the best I can.
Quote:
the important thing that everyone(or almost everyone) seems to miss, is that religion is not important. what makes any of the "stock religions" better than the other? why, does society force you to chose one of them? who is to say that they're right? what should be happening is that people should be encouraged to believe in what they want. then there will be no religion, because each person will have their own ideas(and they will only be ideas). of course this would require the majority of humanity to take off their wool(that was a relatively clever pun where I basically called people sheep; ie following the flock. you christians might not have gotten that lest I explained it.)
1.Nothing makes any religion or belief better than another. It's merely each individuals perosnal perspective.
2. I personally don't believe society 'forces' you too choose any imparticular religion (not the society I live in anyways).
3. The only person to say if they're right is the person involved.
You say people should be encouraged to believe in anything they want - have you read all my other posts in this thread? This is what I have said myself.
IMO there still will be religion because it is a specific set of ideas.
and I got your little joke, I actually enjoyed it. Very clever 
Quote:
religion is not important. faith IS. it doesn't matter what you believe in. you could believe that killing people is great and have faith in your morals. killing people is universally considered wrong, but that's not the point. the point is that you have your own thing going and you're not following everyone else. you believe what you believe. organized religion doesn't give you this chance(not the chance to kill people...that was just an example of the negative extreme to better prove the point here), it simply has you following something that you can't really believe in your soul, because they're not YOUR beliefs. they're your adopted beliefs, which you may strongly agree with, but they can never be yours.
Faith in killing people is different to faith in a religion. For examply Religion is not only a way of life, but a meaning to life (to the believer). Killing (in your example) would be more of a hobby.
Re: beliefs then anything that anyone believes in is not their own belief. In this case ALL beliefs, religious or not, are adopted. Therefore they are all equal.
-------------------- "[More than] half the people in federal prison are there for drug offences. We're arresting half a million people a year for possessing marijuana. We're locking up kids sometimes for life for their first drug offence. We have no room in our prisons for rapists and child molesters and murderers cause we're filling them up with these non violent drug offenders." - Steven Duke, Yale Law School on 'Hooked: Illegal Drugs and How They Got That Way' -
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Entropymancer

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 10,207
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread [Re: shrooma]
#5608114 - 05/09/06 10:14 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Feelers said: Over the years Science is continually being proven wrong and new theory's are being produced to replace old ones. Fuck people used ot think the world was flat. Although in 2000 years nobody has been able to DISprove the bible. Not one.
Well, I think you've summed up the reason that scientists hate Christians. So many christians few science as a fundamental attack on their faith, when really it's just a systematic way of processing information from the natural world. The reason that science is constantly being proven wrong is because that is what it's intended to do. Every theory is simply a model for comprehending some aspect of the natural world until a better model comes along.
And as to no one being able to "able to DISprove the bible," that is a totally naive statement. Have you read Genesis (it's the first book in the Bible, shouldn't have taken you long to get around to)? There's two contradictory creation myths (the 7 days thing and the Adam and Eve thing). Check it out: In the seven days, God creates the cosmos and heaven and earth and whatall, then plants, then animals, THEN humans. In the garden of Eden, God creates Adam, and THEN creates animals to keep him company. Those two creation stories have distinctly contradictory chronologies. So there, now you're Bible has been "DISproven".
Really, I try not to hate Christians, but so many of them try to push their monumental prejudices onto me. I don't mind it so much in person, that I can shrug off. It's the fucking Christians in the government imposing their morality on everyone else through legislature that pisses me off.
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shrooma
Did you hear therumour?


Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 499
Loc: Near the exit of the entr...
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread [Re: Lion]
#5608123 - 05/09/06 10:16 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
bug said: I am familiar with the concept of the Christian afterlife, but I find your metaphor unsettling to say the least.
My basic qualm is your off-hand rejection of the "chocolates and lollies". This is precisely what I mean when I say "filtering your experience through one worldview". How have you convinced yourself that Christianity is the only path to enlightenment and the afterlife? I could spend about 15 minutes in the Religion forum here and find people who exclusively follow the tenets of Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism and Shroomism ( ). How can you reject these people, many of whom have come to their revelations in a way similar to your own, as lollie-grabbers, and reserve for yourself the title of 'fruit-indulger' (an unfortunate metaphor for a Christian, I might add ) because you deem yourself to have found the right one.
Let me start by apologising once again for my metaphors. They suck!
In the same way that they reject Christianity. Although I might also add that I believe there is only 1 god, although he appears as different forms to each religion. Because we are not all the same people, it's not as easy for us to accept the one God (eg in ancient times could an anglo saxon contemplate a black god? and vice ersa). Could you also explain to me the religion of Shroomism ?
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My metaphor for religion would be something like this:
God plants a seed in the earth, out of which springs the most divine tree, whose fruits endow any who eat them with a glimpse of the Love and Glory of God. Adam and Eve take the fruits of this plant with them for sustenance when they are banished from Eden. Over time, as humans multiply, the seeds are carried to far corners of the world, where the trees they bears begins take different shapes, each of which offers succelent fruit (though not as succelent nor as divine as the original fruits). Different factions of humans begin to appear, divided over which plant bears the sweetest fruit. Millions are slaughtered because they reject the notion that other factions' fruits are sweeter than theirs. But what none of them realizes is that all of these trees came from the same seed, and now they are sickly-sweet and offer only a shadow of the divinity that was before their greatest virtue.
I admire your theory. Is this the doing of *insert holy chanting* Shroomism
-------------------- "[More than] half the people in federal prison are there for drug offences. We're arresting half a million people a year for possessing marijuana. We're locking up kids sometimes for life for their first drug offence. We have no room in our prisons for rapists and child molesters and murderers cause we're filling them up with these non violent drug offenders." - Steven Duke, Yale Law School on 'Hooked: Illegal Drugs and How They Got That Way' -
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HeadTripVertigo
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread [Re: shrooma]
#5608148 - 05/09/06 10:25 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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shrooma said:Quote:
the important thing that everyone(or almost everyone) seems to miss, is that religion is not important. what makes any of the "stock religions" better than the other? why, does society force you to chose one of them? who is to say that they're right? what should be happening is that people should be encouraged to believe in what they want. then there will be no religion, because each person will have their own ideas(and they will only be ideas). of course this would require the majority of humanity to take off their wool(that was a relatively clever pun where I basically called people sheep; ie following the flock. you christians might not have gotten that lest I explained it.)
1.Nothing makes any religion or belief better than another. It's merely each individuals perosnal perspective.
2. I personally don't believe society 'forces' you too choose any imparticular religion (not the society I live in anyways).
3. The only person to say if they're right is the person involved.
You say people should be encouraged to believe in anything they want - have you read all my other posts in this thread? This is what I have said myself.
IMO there still will be religion because it is a specific set of ideas.
and I got your little joke, I actually enjoyed it. Very clever 
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religion is not important. faith IS. it doesn't matter what you believe in. you could believe that killing people is great and have faith in your morals. killing people is universally considered wrong, but that's not the point. the point is that you have your own thing going and you're not following everyone else. you believe what you believe. organized religion doesn't give you this chance(not the chance to kill people...that was just an example of the negative extreme to better prove the point here), it simply has you following something that you can't really believe in your soul, because they're not YOUR beliefs. they're your adopted beliefs, which you may strongly agree with, but they can never be yours.
Faith in killing people is different to faith in a religion. For examply Religion is not only a way of life, but a meaning to life (to the believer). Killing (in your example) would be more of a hobby.
Re: beliefs then anything that anyone believes in is not their own belief. In this case ALL beliefs, religious or not, are adopted. Therefore they are all equal.
1. it's not personal perspective, because these religions are already established. it's assumed personal perspective.
2. society doesn't force you, of course, it was just an expression. but in the majority of the world, people are grown as ____ since birth until they're old enough to make their own choices. example: baptising children isn't cool in my book, because that's making the choice for them, and it's something they may not want. naturally, you can't go back in time and get unbaptised. generally speaking, you're being pushed into a religious affiliation by your family and community all throughout your childhood, and you don't know any better really, you're a kid. then later on, you either accept that "that's what you are" for your life or you actually think about it and realize that thats what THEY have said you are.
3. that's true to an extent. people who are followers of organized religion cannot say that they're right. they had no part in creating the religion or giving their personal feelings on what it should be. their religions were made thousands of years ago. they have adopted them as their own by either the way described above or by falling into it later in life. it is not their own, so they cannot be right about it.
and in response to the last bit you wrote, you're missing it. I'm not saying they're the same at all. it's the larger picture you're missing. it's not faith in religion, it's not faith in killing people.....it's faith, period.
-------------------- TACOS LIKE A MOTHERFUCKER
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shrooma
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread [Re: Entropymancer]
#5608154 - 05/09/06 10:27 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Entropymancer said:
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Feelers said: Over the years Science is continually being proven wrong and new theory's are being produced to replace old ones. Fuck people used ot think the world was flat. Although in 2000 years nobody has been able to DISprove the bible. Not one.
Well, I think you've summed up the reason that scientists hate Christians. So many christians few science as a fundamental attack on their faith, when really it's just a systematic way of processing information from the natural world. The reason that science is constantly being proven wrong is because that is what it's intended to do. Every theory is simply a model for comprehending some aspect of the natural world until a better model comes along.
And as to no one being able to "able to DISprove the bible," that is a totally naive statement. Have you read Genesis (it's the first book in the Bible, shouldn't have taken you long to get around to)? There's two contradictory creation myths (the 7 days thing and the Adam and Eve thing). Check it out: In the seven days, God creates the cosmos and heaven and earth and whatall, then plants, then animals, THEN humans. In the garden of Eden, God creates Adam, and THEN creates animals to keep him company. Those two creation stories have distinctly contradictory chronologies. So there, now you're Bible has been "DISproven".
Really, I try not to hate Christians, but so many of them try to push their monumental prejudices onto me. I don't mind it so much in person, that I can shrug off. It's the fucking Christians in the government imposing their morality on everyone else through legislature that pisses me off.
In my opinion I don't think this disproves the bible. It maybe contradictory in some ways. But the fact of the matter is it was written by humans. At the time they probably didn't see it important which was made first but rather the fact that they were made.
Please try to remember people I am not trying to force anything on anyone, please don't think I'm trying to 'convert' anyone to christian. All I'm asking is that you try to not despise other people for what they believe whether they are Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish, Christian, Aetheist or Shroomist as bug pointed out . I don't agree with forcing a religion on people as it appears is what's happening in America but i don't think it's right to generalise all Christians exactly the same.
OK i definately gotta go to bed now, I have Uni in 6 hours and if I keep going then all I'm going to be thinking about is Religion. Tomorrow will try to respond to as many posts as one boy possibly can. And thankyou everyone for your contribution.
-------------------- "[More than] half the people in federal prison are there for drug offences. We're arresting half a million people a year for possessing marijuana. We're locking up kids sometimes for life for their first drug offence. We have no room in our prisons for rapists and child molesters and murderers cause we're filling them up with these non violent drug offenders." - Steven Duke, Yale Law School on 'Hooked: Illegal Drugs and How They Got That Way' -
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badchad
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread [Re: shrooma]
#5608183 - 05/09/06 10:39 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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EmptySpace said:
The conservative government, in large part, is controlled by christian and "born again" ideology. I just do not like the fact that I have some bible thumper telling me what to do. I do not believe in your ideology, do not tell me that I am immoral, and do not tell me what to do. Believe what you want to believe, but do not impose christian "morality" on me.
A good summation.
Like you said, most people could care less abouta persons religion, what they believe,their morals etc. However conservative christians have imposed their beliefs through the government.
You clima: If you don't want to share my beliefs that's fine, it's your life and YOU'RE in charge.
If this were true, no one would bother you, or your religion. However when christians are on the warpath to over turn Roe VS. wade and to introduce ID in schools, it IS effecting my life.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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Azen
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread [Re: shrooma]
#5608224 - 05/09/06 10:47 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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The obvious question still applies. Say there was some God that did eventually come down to earth or Jesus incarnate. We're just a tiny blue dot, maybe there are civilizations millions, possibly billions of years ahead of us technologically. What makes you think that some super advanced race of beings can't do what God says he can do??? Easily possible.
Azen
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ezsefix
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread [Re: Azen]
#5608307 - 05/09/06 11:18 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Faith is such an interesting thing. Most people seem to view faith as believing in something without having proof. One of dictionary.com's definitions of the word reads "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. " Do you think that the Heaven's Gate people had faith that they would be transported to their spaceship after they died? Of course they did. What makes this kind of faith different from any other. Is it so wrong to ask God for proof?
Believe what you want, but stop telling me about it. Stop telling me I'm wrong. Stop telling me that I will endure the most painful suffering imaginable for all of eternity for not falling to my knees in front of a cross. (I realise not all of these apply to you, but I speak more to christians in general
-------------------- I am a fictional character
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EmptySpace
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread [Re: Azen]
#5608604 - 05/09/06 12:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Azen said: The obvious question still applies. Say there was some God that did eventually come down to earth or Jesus incarnate. We're just a tiny blue dot, maybe there are civilizations millions, possibly billions of years ahead of us technologically. What makes you think that some super advanced race of beings can't do what God says he can do??? Easily possible.
Azen
According to christians, the world was created six thousand years ago, and God specifically created man to be the ultimate creatures in the universe. In essence other civilizations do not exist. ...Christian Ignorance. Peace.
-------------------- We can't stop here - This is bat country. -Duke--Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
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Edit
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread [Re: shrooma]
#5608861 - 05/09/06 01:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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shrooma said:
I'll start of with I'm Christian. No I wasn't brainwashed as a child, I found God myself. No I don't go to church, no I don't recite phrases from the bible and no I don't even really read the bible. Yes I use drugs (occassionally). But I pray each night and I have a personal connection with God.
Dude.... what kind of Christian are you? You dont read the bible? Why call yourself a Christian?? If you believed in what it said surely you'd have a healthy interest in its contents??? Or do you just hope that there is a god and when you die you'll be kitted out with a sweet pad in heaven just for wearing a T-shirt that says "I believe"?
Theres alot more to being religious than just faith.
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ExplosiveMango
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread [Re: shrooma]
#5609121 - 05/09/06 02:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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The bible has nothing to do with the nature of god. The bible was written by man, and has to do with man's feelings about god, at best.
At worst it is simply a propaganda medium created by some of the most ingenious practical psychologists ever to have lived.
A god cannot be harnessed in a book, or anything else. Any god controllable in this manner would not be a god.
Why is the fundamental monotheistic foundation always related to the ability to fail god? Fear. Fear is the most powerful psychological control. Fear of separation from a group promotes unity in a group, as does fear of difference or change. The powerful religions of today have flourished thanks to an abusive dose of human fear, spirituality is not what ensures communal survival.
Why does any man believe he has the right to tell another to fear his god?
-------------------- Know your self. Know your substance. Know your source. The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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ExplosiveMango
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread [Re: Entropymancer]
#5609166 - 05/09/06 03:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Entropymancer said:
And as to no one being able to "able to DISprove the bible," that is a totally naive statement. Have you read Genesis (it's the first book in the Bible, shouldn't have taken you long to get around to)? There's two contradictory creation myths (the 7 days thing and the Adam and Eve thing). Check it out: In the seven days, God creates the cosmos and heaven and earth and whatall, then plants, then animals, THEN humans. In the garden of Eden, God creates Adam, and THEN creates animals to keep him company. Those two creation stories have distinctly contradictory chronologies. So there, now you're Bible has been "DISproven".
This guy knows what he's talking about.
Trying to use a scientific statement to defend religion is a hilarious idea.
-------------------- Know your self. Know your substance. Know your source. The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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DanJohnHarris
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread *DELETED* [Re: ExplosiveMango]
#5609231 - 05/09/06 03:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Post deleted by DanJohnHarrisReason for deletion: wanted
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Lion
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread [Re: EmptySpace]
#5609533 - 05/09/06 05:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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EmptySpace said:According to christians, the world was created six thousand years ago, and God specifically created man to be the ultimate creatures in the universe. In essence other civilizations do not exist. ...Christian Ignorance. Peace.
This is kind of an over-generalization. Many Christians are bright enough to recognize metaphor when they see it.
I have two essential 'beefs' with religion. First of all, the Abrahamic faiths have a nasty tendency to cause millions of needless deaths. From the Crusades to the ban on Federal loans for stem-cell research, from the Inquisition to the Catholic ban on teaching condom-use in Africa, right up to 9/11, extreme religion is the most divisive force in the world, or at least tied with money for that dubious honor. Although one can argue that 'moderate' religion (i.e. not preaching that people who don't follow your faith will burn in hell, not lobbying to keep marijuana illegal because it is a sacrament of Satan, etc.) is reasonable enough, there remains a huge problem with it: following a religion like Christianity or Islam 'in moderation' leaves you no moral ground to combat extremism, because extremism is merely a different interpretation (and usually a more accurate one) of the textual basis for the same religion. How can you argue over interpretations of a dogma that cannot be objectively analyzed?
My second gripe is that faith is simply not real. It does not exist. By nature we are all intrinsically agnostic until we die. No one on this earth knows whether Jesus was the son of God, born of a virgin, or whether the Oneness with All experienced at the height of an acid trip is not really some grand mental hallucination. Claiming to 'believe' in a religion whose tenets you have no way of confirming is essentially lying to yourself on a deep spiritual level. Science falls in this category too because the only means we have of proving its worth are endemic to science itself; science has nothing to say about anomalous phenomena that do not occur in ordered sets, and the measure of 'probability' that is a central tenet of the scientific method occupies the same theoretical plane as trans-substantiation and string-theory.
In short: if God wanted us to group ourselves under the banners of religion, he wouldn't have made the Nature of Things so damn inscrutable.
Edited by Lion (05/09/06 05:54 PM)
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butane
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread [Re: DanJohnHarris]
#5609554 - 05/09/06 05:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I think that what sets me off about a lot of Christians is how although they pretend to admit that they could be wrong just to create peace, they are actually mentally noting themselves as superior to you because they believe the only real truth, and this mentality shows through.
It seems that with almost every religion in the world, in order to really believe it, you also have to firmly believe that every other religion is wrong. With agnosticism, you acknowledge that you could be wrong and that there might be a god, but there isn't anything to support that theory at the moment. However, there is a bunch of cool evidence over here about evolution and the big bang and stuff that you should really take a look at. The only exception to this is Buddhism, which is clearly evident in their willingness to adopt and combine other religions with itself, such as with Shinto in Japan. Also, the religion changed significantly on its way from India to China, where the general school of thought moved away from strict rules and guidelines over to other methods of enlightenment, such as with other mini-Buddhas (can't remember the word). Some sects of Buddhism are so drastically different that it can be compared the difference between Christianity, Judaism and Islam. They are fully ready to admit that they could be wrong and adopt new methods.
Anyway, I gotta run, but that's my 2c. Also, I agree with whoever it was who pointed out how Christians by themselves are fine, but turning Christian tenets into law isn't. Wurd.
-------------------- "...but by and large it was a simple intoxication with most things seeming quite hilarious. The intoxication was also quite extreme."
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Feelers
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread [Re: butane]
#5609846 - 05/09/06 06:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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[qoute]What's the rubix cube stuff all about. Did you find me on a cubing forum or something?
Haha thats quite a coincidence, nah my flatmates into cubing, he's actually got a simliar average to you! 
I dont think its hypocritical for me to celebrate Christmas/Easter, at the end of the day its about being with your family which doesnt happen too often as you get older.
As for there being more evidence about "Jesus than Julius Ceaser". Where? If you check out wikipedia you'll see a lot of blanks and geusses about Jesus.
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Jesus probably lived in Galilee for most of his life and he probably spoke Aramaic and Hebrew
Not exactly a difinative answer, there is very little info on Jesus outside the Bible. In fact I think there is only one reference to him anywhere, which simply says he was crucified. Julius Caesar on the other hand, has lots of definitive facts about him, lots of accurate dates and his existance is based on multitudes of information from many sources.
I have no fear of death - but I'd rather be alive. Just because your happy when you die beacuase you think your gonna go to heaven doesnt mean its actually there. They dont know, I dont know. I'll stick with the null hypothesis, dont wanna be dissappointed. 
I personally cant explain how everything began, I think it's silly to speculate. I'll deal with that stuff when I'm dead. If it comes down to having to believe during life to go to heaven, I will stand in the face of God and tell him that's not on. We are a product of our genes and our environment, so effectivly we dont choose whether or not we "believe", its determined already - by him.
I spose I do believe in something, you could call it God- mearly because we are existing, so something must have started it off. I also dont think that supreme being will punish me for being logical, after all "he" invented logic for a reason - to make sense of his construction.
As for being to disprove the bible, something tells me it could never be disprooven in your eyes, that is Faith. There's loads of errors in the Bible, contradictions ect. I spose the question is o you think the bible was written by people?
I think it was written by a bunch of different authors conveying what they believed at the time and a culmination of oral legends. I'd sum the bible up as chineese whispers recorded at least 400 years after the first event, heavily edited by people along the way for all sorts of reasons.
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread *DELETED* [Re: Feelers]
#5609932 - 05/09/06 07:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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grimR
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread [Re: DanJohnHarris]
#5610002 - 05/09/06 07:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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religion is built on faith, those not in faith rely on science.
-------------------- - grimR -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- http://egolost.com "I am already given to the power that rules my fate. And I cling to nothing, so I will have nothing to defend. I have no thoughts, so I will see. I fear nothing, so I will remember myself." - Don Juan teachings
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BlindLemon
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread [Re: grimR]
#5610035 - 05/09/06 07:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I believe in god, but i don't believe in religion. I just think there's some superior force some where in the universe or even beyond. I just think there's gotta be something more than we know, maby some thing else we cant understand or see. But as far as religion i think alot of its made up...
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Im a fucking spiral..
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shrooma
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread [Re: BlindLemon]
#5610346 - 05/09/06 08:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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At the end of the day, if you read my first post, I stated I didn't want this to turn into an argument, All I wanted was for a few of my questions to be answered - which has been done. By the way I am thankful for everyones contribution it all makes for a very interesting read.
You've just got to appreciate how differently human beings think individually.
-------------------- "[More than] half the people in federal prison are there for drug offences. We're arresting half a million people a year for possessing marijuana. We're locking up kids sometimes for life for their first drug offence. We have no room in our prisons for rapists and child molesters and murderers cause we're filling them up with these non violent drug offenders." - Steven Duke, Yale Law School on 'Hooked: Illegal Drugs and How They Got That Way' -
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Re: In Reply To "whats with people becoming christians" thread [Re: shrooma]
#5611604 - 05/10/06 05:11 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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shrooma said: Over the years Science is continually being proven wrong and new theory's are being produced to replace old ones. Fuck people used ot think the world was flat. Although in 2000 years nobody has been able to DISprove the bible. Not one.
Holes can be poked in anything that is not 100% proven but accepting what is logically most reasonable is the obvious choice, radiometric dating, other dating tools and evolution disproove the idea of Christianity. The bible claims the earths age is far less than what can be logically proven
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shrooma said: Another misconception is that people think GOD is this big dude with a beard who sits in a throne somewhere up in the sky. Who says he isn't just a form of energy. Who says god simply isn't the idea of Love. The fact is it doesn't matter what he looks like.
I agree to an extent but u say "he is a form of energy" when i think we are the form of energy, we are god, I am god, You are god, the sun is god, life is god.... I dont think one presence or one thing is god I think we are god
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