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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#5927730 - 08/03/06 03:19 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm sure that Aristotle was well familiar with the plant life all around him and I'm sure he studied it well.
Chemical reactions that control growth are not the same as awareness. Aristotle's point was that there are levels of awareness from the simple bending of a stem due the chemical reaction caused by light, to an animal perceiving something and reacting to it, all the way to a humans perceptions leading to abstract thought.
What people in this thread are guilty of is anthropomorphism.
Anthropomorphism:
Attribution of human motivation, characteristics, or behavior to inanimate objects, animals, or natural phenomena.
The attribution of human motivation, characteristics, or behavior to nonhuman organisms or inanimate objects.
The attributing of human characteristics and purposes to inanimate objects, animals, plants, or other natural phenomena. To describe a rushing river as “angry” is to anthropomorphize it.
"It is a common tendency for people to think of inanimate objects as having human-like characteristics. Few, if any people, believe this to have real significance. Common examples of this tendency include naming one's car or begging a machine to work."
"Anthropomorphism is common in other technical fields as well. For example, a chemist might casually explain an ionic bond between sodium and chlorine by asserting that the sodium atom "wants" to merge with the chlorine atom. Desire is, of course, an emotion that atoms are incapable of."
"Using anthropomorphized caricatures or projecting human qualities on conceptual entities or inanimate objects in reasoning is also known as committing a pathetic fallacy (not a pejorative term)."
-FF
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure


Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 11 months, 3 days
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: fastfred]
#5928548 - 08/03/06 01:05 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I think Carl Jung called it 'participation mystique'.
I also have to admit I've named my cars and other toys. It seems that religion and science have been locked into a war for the past 2,000 years, but I wish that wasn't so. At some point, it would be nice to see the two come together.
The problem as I see it is 'modern' religion is static and unchanging, but our science constantly changes as our understandings of the physical universe change. Wouldn't it be nice if our religion or mysticism could also change as we grow in our understanding of science? This is one of the reasons I left the so-called 'new age' movement in the 1980's. They wanted us to memorize chants to different goddesses and gods, and sit in a specific position to meditate, burn the exact inscense for each type of meditiation, etc. It finally seemed there were more rules than the old church I had already left had.
Sorry to continue the off topic drift. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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shroomydan
exshroomerite


Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#5935632 - 08/05/06 10:38 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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MushmanTheManic:
If you can't see the difference between the stimulus driven release of spores from cup fungi (Ascomycota ) and the passive release of spores from dead puffballs, then you are not paying very close attention. A simple explanation that ignores evidence is not accurate.
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I wonder if perhaps I have been misunderstood. By awareness I am not implying any kind of Anthropomorphism. Most would concede that a dog is aware of it's environment, while at the same time acknowledging that the dog's awareness is qualitatively different from a human's. It seems to me that a live mushroom, which releases its spores in a puff a few seconds after the wind blows, and gains evolutionary advantage because of this behavior, might be aware that the wind is blowing, though not in the same way that a man is aware the wind is blowing. No Anthropomorphism, just a simple explanation of an observed phenomenon. The mushroom feels the wind and releases its spores.
Furthermore, accusations that my theory is counter to Darwinian evolution are unfounded. Purpose is implicit in Darwin's writings. All organisms act to survive and reproduce; this is their purpose. Those better suited to survival and reproduction shape successive generations of the species, adapting a population to better survive and reproduce in it's changing enviroment.
A mushroom that waits to release spores until the wind is blowing better accomplishes its purpose to reproduce than a mushroom that randomly ejects spores. Obviously, the observed behavior is the product of evolution.
Even mechanical materialists (philosophical term) who deny all purpose will, if they are educated, agree that man and other higher animals evolved from lower organisms, and likely from inanimate chemicals. The first self replicating protein that found itself surrounded by a bubble of lipids (primitive cell membrane) was more than likely not capable of rational thought, yet this first proto-cell, over a number of eons, evolved into beings capable of building machines which allow them to argue across continents about the sensitivity of a mushroom. Somewhere along the line, a purely mechanical process gained awareness.
I think the video gives evidence of awareness in cup fungi. Others disagree and that is OK, but one must be careful not to be fooled by a Straw Man Fallacy.
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure


Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 11 months, 3 days
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: shroomydan]
#5935681 - 08/05/06 10:55 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Well said.  RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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rubixcubies
porch monkey ferlyfe


Registered: 08/05/06
Posts: 1,218
Loc: ottawa on
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5960032 - 08/13/06 05:55 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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i don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet its a really long thread and i haven't read it all the way through yet but i think that if u have fruit bodies and then you change the conditions they are growing in into undesirable conditions they will drop spores and mature quicker as a survival mechanism to carry on the species
-------------------- i'm a very evolved ape you know.
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shroomydan
exshroomerite


Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: shroomydan]
#7271892 - 08/07/07 08:33 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Regarding electrical communication between hyphae in a mycelium.
From The Mycota
Quote:
Fungal hyphae, like other eukaryotic cells and organisms, drive electrical currents through themselves: electric charges flow into one region and out of another. This may be news to more than a few mycologists, but it is hardly a novel discovery... One function of this electrical field or pattern is to act as a directive force in laying down new structures... transcellular electric currents are widespread, possibly ubiquitous, among eukaryotes...particular ionic components of the current, notably calcium ions and protons may serve as a localized signal to trigger cytoplasmic action such as contraction, exocytosis, or micro filament asembly...
Harold, F. M. "Ionic and Electrical Dimensions of Hyphal Growth." The Mycota Vol 1: Growth Differentiation and Sexuality. Ed. K. Esser and P. A. Lemke. Berlin Heidelberg: Springer-Verlag, 1994.
This seems relevant to the topic at hand. I have not read the entire chapter yet, but from what I gather protons and ions pass from one cell to another in a mycelium, producing a single electrical field that directs the growth and functioning of fungal organism. This has been scientifically observed.
I have yet to find a study of this electrical field in cup fungi as they discharge spores, but my hypothesis seems a lot more plausible all of a sudden. 
Interestingly, the description of this electric field seems to match Aristotle's description of the vegetative soul - an animating principle that directs growth, nutrition, and reproduction.
Edited by shroomydan (08/17/07 08:34 PM)
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em_bre_O
shroomery'sEmbryoticAsshole


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 2,312
Loc: In the stages of develope...
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: shobimono]
#7272676 - 08/07/07 11:51 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
shobimono said: This is how those cup mushrooms dispearse their spores.
The inside surface of the cup is lined with capped cylinders containing spores under pressure. When air, ie from your breath or the wind, blows across the top of these cylinders, the lids dry out and shrink, this allows the pressure to release, shooting out the spores.
It's pretty cool to try. You don't need to blow like you are trying to blow all the candles out on a birthday cake, just a quick puff should suffice.
Paul Stamets was talking about this when i went to 1 of his seminars
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ralphroks
humaniform


Registered: 03/25/07
Posts: 553
Loc: Up north passed Alaska
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: em_bre_O]
#7277086 - 08/09/07 05:43 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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There was a study I saw where they trained a worm; cut it in half and both sides retained the memory. Then they trained worms and ground them up and the worms they fed them too retained memory, supposedly it has to do with RNA and how mammals inherit instinct: http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=826389
Also a guy chopped a chickens head off and kept the chicken alive for years afterwards by jamming wbs down its throat. I used to cut chickens heads off and the head is alive until it runs out of oxygen. If you dont hit it low in the neck, in the central nervous system the body jumps up and runs around.
-------------------- "Please read and learn and relay knowledge not misinformation! Thank you"-hyphae
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aspore
myconaut



Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 663
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: ralphroks]
#7278917 - 08/09/07 06:36 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Perhaps this 'vegetative soul' that might exists in the mushrooms is only a more complex series of evolved mechanics than emotions. Perhaps humans are so evolved, that every person is like it's own different spceies, with a fixed repitoir of 'emotions' which are only a trillion different 'mechanical' funcions, that we have inherited, and that are created early in life, based on our enviroment and interactions.
So it's not like we have a soul, just a huge ass supply of reactions to our surroundings, every persons different from the next. This creates our personality. Like a mushroom that drops spores as soon as it can, or only when the wind hits it. That's like a person waiting to have a marriage before having kids, or some third world country woman just shootin em out. It's like the enviroment of the married person would be more stable and providing, meaning that sub-cociously perhaps they know that it's not an issue to struggle to create offspring, whereas the third world country woman somehow subcociously keeps having kids cause her lifestyle tells her body that it needs to struggle to survive, and reproduce often.
This is just a ramble, but I'm tired...
!asp☺re!!!
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c l i c k m e
Edited by aspore (08/09/07 06:38 PM)
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Primal Glitch
literally just vibing



Registered: 05/06/07
Posts: 4,854
Loc: 🌎
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: aspore]
#7300994 - 08/16/07 12:49 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fastfred said: "What people in this thread are guilty of is anthropomorphism"
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make the changa you wish to see in the world gnome sayin'?
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georgeM
Human



Registered: 07/05/05
Posts: 1,748
Loc: Osage Cuestas
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: Primal Glitch]
#7304437 - 08/17/07 10:39 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
tripleclick said:
Quote:
fastfred said: "What people in this thread are guilty of is anthropomorphism"
Oh but come on, additionally there is a subtle peppering of anthropocentrism as well.
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shroomydan
exshroomerite


Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: Primal Glitch]
#7305992 - 08/17/07 08:28 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
tripleclick said:
Quote:
fastfred said: "What people in this thread are guilty of is anthropomorphism"
Here is what Ernst Mayr has to say on the matter of anthropomorphism:
Quote:
How did human consciousness evolve?
This is a question psychologists love to ask. The answer is actually quite simple: From animal consciousness! There is no justification in the widespread assumption that consciousness is a unique human property. Students of animal behavior have brought together a great deal of evidence showing how widespread consciousness is among animals. Every dog owner has had occasion to observe the "guilt feeling" a dog displays when, in the absence of its master, he has done something for which he expects to be punished. How far "down" in the animal kingdom one can trace such signs of consciousness is arguable. It may well be involved in the avoidance reaction of some invertebrates and even protozoans. However it is quite certain that human consciousness did not arise full-fledged with the human species, but is only the most highly evolved endpoint of a long evolutionary history.
What Evolution Is. Appendix B question 24.
The greatest evolutionary biologist of the twentieth century speaks of consciousness in protozoans! Perhaps mushrooms are also conscious.
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PsilocybeQbensis
Stranger

Registered: 04/29/07
Posts: 65
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: shroomydan]
#7311683 - 08/19/07 06:45 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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this is such a fascinating thread...
Edited by PsilocybeQbensis (08/19/07 06:56 PM)
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linkamathingy
Aspiring Mycologist

Registered: 10/27/10
Posts: 1,235
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Bruce Lipton, The New Biology Where Mind and Matter Meet
Watch that video and awareness as organized consciousness will make sense.
People spend a lot of time arguing the same truths
-------------------- SCIENCE!!! If NIST didn't even investigate whether explosives were used, how can we trust their investigation? It's a rule whenever explosions are heard. Though I Laugh EyegasmArt.com anonymous: without name Anonymous: a group with a name don't be fooled, have a revolution on your own terms.
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debianlinux
Myconerd - DBK




Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 8,334
Loc: Over There
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: linkamathingy]
#13399951 - 10/28/10 10:04 AM (13 years, 3 months ago) |
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You got here because of my sig, didn't you?
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linkamathingy
Aspiring Mycologist


Registered: 10/27/10
Posts: 1,235
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: debianlinux]
#13476428 - 11/12/10 11:41 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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why yes i did come to think of it. i had to click the sig link again to figure it out though.
-------------------- SCIENCE!!! If NIST didn't even investigate whether explosives were used, how can we trust their investigation? It's a rule whenever explosions are heard. Though I Laugh EyegasmArt.com anonymous: without name Anonymous: a group with a name don't be fooled, have a revolution on your own terms.
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