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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: Jim]
    #5832455 - 07/07/06 04:24 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Jim said:
Dan, that is the coolest video I have seen! With just a breath of air you caused that...

It looks very similar to the cups I find around here...




Give it a try next time you find one. It seems to work best with the brittle cups, but some rubbery ones also display this behavior.


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OfflineFeelers
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: SickShroomer]
    #5832474 - 07/07/06 04:31 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I don't see either a way for the myc to have a memory or an evolutionary need for one. How would the data be stored - presumably the idea would be that the arrangement of the myceial network would look somehow as it is in a brain?

By saying the myc has a memory you are suggesting it has both a longterm and working memory -also with the cognitive function required to know when it should apply this information. Even a jellyfish would not be able to accomplish such a task.

When in nature would being able to replicate a specific growth pattern that was used in the past be useful in another situation? "Clones" of the same situation only happen in labs, a memory would be of no practical use in vivo.

Are you able to post a link to this maze experiment?? - I'm interested in seeing it. :thumbup:


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Offlinetallgreen
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: Feelers]
    #5832577 - 07/07/06 05:05 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I have heard of various spiritual yogis talking about genetic memory, and how information is stored at the deepest level of our being. This idea resonates with my experience. I do not believe that consciousness is something only accomplished in complex neuro networks like ones of animals. I think there is a lot more to the activity of life than our science today can explain. I don't think we'll be able to come to a conclusion on this subject with mere debate, the basis of knowledge is just not available. What we can do is see results of experiments. Those do not need to be explained for them to be convincing.

So, more info of that maze experiment would be great to see. I personally have seen dramatic results when I sing to my plants, like bursts of growth during increased periods of attention. Recently I have been praying and meditating near my mycology nook, and I don't have a control group to show a difference, but I am having great results with my endeavors.


--------------------
Nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love.
- The Beatles


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: tallgreen]
    #5832884 - 07/07/06 06:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

> Are you able to post a link to this maze experiment??

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/usergallery.php/pid/467915/

> I don't see either a way for the myc to have a memory or an evolutionary need for one.

Me either. I'm also less than impressed by the maze. There's more than just that one pic, I don't have the link, but I don't see anything justifying the claim of memory. There are many possible explanations, all of which make more sense and are less far-fetched than that the myc has memory.

Also, if such an amazing claim were true why hasn't it been followed up on? I can guarantee that this would generate an intense amount of scientific interest if it could be conclusively demonstrated.

> I have heard of various spiritual yogis talking about genetic memory, and how information is stored at the deepest level of our being.

And I've heard about flying carpets, magic lanterns, unicorns, pigs with wings, etc..


-FF


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OfflineTomcat23
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: fastfred]
    #5834013 - 07/08/06 12:54 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

So instead of flicking them I should blow on them? Got it! :wink:


--------------------
Mescaline man, im in need!!!


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: Tomcat23]
    #5834387 - 07/08/06 05:57 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

This is the experiment that inspired my work.
RR
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s189608.htm


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5834655 - 07/08/06 10:38 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

From: http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s189608.htm

"In the first part of the experiment, pieces of slime mould Physarum polycephalum were placed throughout the 3x3cm maze. To grow, the slime mould throws out tube-like structures called pseudopodia, and it soon filled the entire maze."

"The maze had four routes through, to get from one exit to the other. Food was placed at both exits, and after eight hours, the slime mould had shrunk back so that its 'body' filled only the parts of the maze that were the shortest route from one piece of food to the other."

"The researchers suggest that as the parts of the plasmodium come into contact with food, they start to contract more frequently. This sends out waves to other parts of its body which tell give feedback signals as to whether to grow further or contract. Ultimately, to maximise foraging efficiency, the plasmodium contracts into one thick tube, running through the maze."
------------------------------------------

I don't see how this shows any memory or even intelligence. It sounds to me like the slime simply covered the maze then shrank from the areas that were not useful to it, leaving the shortest path from one food source to another.


-FF


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InvisibleYESSUP
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: shroomydan]
    #5836343 - 07/08/06 06:03 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Oh my.... I should have puffed on this cluster yestarday..
Sweet thread Dan!!!


--------------------
Gut Feeling leads to anxiety, Anxiety leads to fear, Fear leads to anger,And anger leads to regret.


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OfflineFeelers
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: YESSUP]
    #5864412 - 07/16/06 05:25 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)
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Found the original article on that maze thing.... http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v407/n6803/abs/407470a0_fs.html


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OfflineFeelers
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: Feelers]
    #5864416 - 07/16/06 05:29 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)
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Damn I cant upload the file properly. There's not very much more in it- its pretty much exactly the same as the link posted.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: Feelers]
    #5865202 - 07/16/06 11:49 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Try shortening the filename. That's what has caused problems for me...


-FF


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Offlinebeyondsisxth
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: fastfred]
    #5867203 - 07/16/06 08:38 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I'm just gonna add this cause I'm getting tired of seeing this pseudoscientific attributing of certain characteristics to plants and fungi. I'm going to trust conventional scientific knowledge on this one. And saying "Well its outside the scope of science" is a nice way of giving up and creating a meaningless explanation with no predictive power and no basis in reality.

From Botany: An Introduction to Plant Biology. Third Edition. By James Mauseth
Quote:


8. Plants do not have purpose or decision-making capacity. It is easy for us to speak and write as if plants were capable of thinking and planning. We might say, "Plants produce roots in order to absorb water." But this suggests that the plants are capable of analyzing what they need and deciding what they are going to do. Assuming that plants have human characters such as thought and decision-making capacity is called anthropomorphism, and it should be avoided. Similarly, assuming that processes or structures have a purpose is called teleology, and it too is inaccurate. Consider an alternative way of phrasing the sentence: "Plant roots absorb water," leaving out the phrase "in order to." The reality of the situation is that some of the information in the plant's genes causes the plant to produce roots, which have a structure and metabolism that result in water absorption. Plants have roots because they inherited root genes from their ancestors, not in order to absorb water. Absorbing water is a beneficial result that aids in the survival of the plant, but it is not the result of a decision (anthropomorphism) or purpose (teleology).




This applies to fungi too.


--------------------
The sun was pulling cheap shots doing commercial body tricks, Behind the back, Under the leg, I think he even did a headspin, On a crossfader that sounded whack, But looked excellent, All of the sudden it gets dim, The crater face steps in, Puts mexican drumbreaks on the Technics, He's like "Let's begin", He conducted an orchestra so dope the sun started sweatin' him, I guess he'd expected to win on pure artistic merit, Composing complex plays with nothin but soundbytes, Burned out the lights, Made MCs too self conscious quit the master mics, For a thousand nights, It continued without a single slip up, Except once the record skipped, But it kinda sounded cool.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: beyondsisxth]
    #5867311 - 07/16/06 09:05 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

beyondsisxth said:
This applies to fungi too.




lol. Says who? You?

Whomever wrote that freshman biology book couldn't even phrase one paragraph without grammatical errors. Now we're supposed to accept his/her narrow-minded and twisted view as final word?

That text addresses whether or not plants are sentient due to the ability to form roots. Well, mushrooms form mycelium but nobody is saying they're sentient because of that. However, running a maze is not a simple task. You can choose to believe what you wish, but don't condescend others who would attempt to move the science forward.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison


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Offlinebeyondsisxth
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5867395 - 07/16/06 09:21 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I'll trust his PhD and experience over your... oh thats right, pseudoscientific bullshit.

Got anything besides ad homs and strawmen?

Also, theres nothing complex about finding food and moving towards it, maze or not.


Edited by beyondsisxth (07/16/06 09:22 PM)


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Offlinebeyondsisxth
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: beyondsisxth]
    #5867424 - 07/16/06 09:26 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Also, that statement applies to fungi as well because you're committing the exact same fallacy it describes by attributing purpose to a biological mechanism. You're enstilling it with meaning on your own, the conclusion of the experiment never did that, you did.

Edit: Looks like I was wrong, both you AND the study are committing this fallacy.


--------------------
The sun was pulling cheap shots doing commercial body tricks, Behind the back, Under the leg, I think he even did a headspin, On a crossfader that sounded whack, But looked excellent, All of the sudden it gets dim, The crater face steps in, Puts mexican drumbreaks on the Technics, He's like "Let's begin", He conducted an orchestra so dope the sun started sweatin' him, I guess he'd expected to win on pure artistic merit, Composing complex plays with nothin but soundbytes, Burned out the lights, Made MCs too self conscious quit the master mics, For a thousand nights, It continued without a single slip up, Except once the record skipped, But it kinda sounded cool.


Edited by beyondsisxth (07/16/06 10:32 PM)


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OfflineFeelers
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: beyondsisxth]
    #5867580 - 07/16/06 10:03 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)
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Ok I'll try again... hurrah I think it worked. :grin:

To me it looks like a concentration gradient flows down away from the food, meaning that growth is enhanced in the shortest route to the food.

Notice he is very careful with his wording
Quote:

Here we show that this simple organism has the ability to find the minimum-length solution between two points in a labyrinth.




Quote:

This remarkable process of cellular computation
implies that cellular materials can show a primitive intelligence




Its a very small article, one with little follow up and the conclusion it comes to is that it "implies" intellegence. The references 8 and 9 in that list could be interesting.


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Offlinebeyondsisxth
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: beyondsisxth]
    #5867616 - 07/16/06 10:13 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"Intelligence" is an extremely vague concept that almost nobody agrees on, they fail to define it instead offering up a citation to shift their problem to someone else. That study also commits the teleology fallacy by attributing intelligence to food finding in the first place.


--------------------
The sun was pulling cheap shots doing commercial body tricks, Behind the back, Under the leg, I think he even did a headspin, On a crossfader that sounded whack, But looked excellent, All of the sudden it gets dim, The crater face steps in, Puts mexican drumbreaks on the Technics, He's like "Let's begin", He conducted an orchestra so dope the sun started sweatin' him, I guess he'd expected to win on pure artistic merit, Composing complex plays with nothin but soundbytes, Burned out the lights, Made MCs too self conscious quit the master mics, For a thousand nights, It continued without a single slip up, Except once the record skipped, But it kinda sounded cool.


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InvisibleOmnicracker
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: beyondsisxth]
    #5867872 - 07/16/06 11:46 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

the plants, they can read your mind and then some.
you ever hooked a lie detector to a philodenron?


--------------------




xxx..Learn Something..xxx


Edited by Omnicracker (07/16/06 11:46 PM)


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Offlinehippie_cune
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: Omnicracker]
    #5868134 - 07/17/06 01:58 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Omnicracker said:
the plants, they can read your mind and then some.
you ever hooked a lie detector to a philodenron?




i think its philodendron...

but no i havent.. what happens?


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OfflineFeelers
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: hippie_cune]
    #5868161 - 07/17/06 02:38 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

they fail to define it instead offering up a citation to shift their problem to someone else




Yeah, those references are to "Artificial Neural Networks", and I think that they definately skipped the "intellegence thing" as you said by attributing it to an obscure reference.


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