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EquilibriuM
dream stalker

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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5612224 - 05/10/06 11:10 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I want to know more about the maze, can you elaborate on your experiments RR ?
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mycogirl
goddamn



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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5612349 - 05/10/06 11:50 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Several years ago, I 'trained' mycelium to crawl through a maze. I proved mycelium has a memory because I could transfer a small piece of mycelium from a completed maze to an identical second maze and the mycelium would take the shortest path to the rye grain at the end. RR
This is indeed very interesting. Can you prove the mycelium had some type of cellular memory though, and not that only the mycelium best fit to change direction survived. This seems like it could be selection, not training. (But these are what make good experiments, right?)
I'm not sure how you could even tell the two phenomena apart.
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texas34
Lurker

Registered: 12/03/05
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: EquilibriuM]
#5612417 - 05/10/06 12:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Just a quick post for now. I'll look for some references later tonight. Anyway, mycelia has been shown to detect chemicals released from dead or alive plant tissues and grow towards it. It is likely that your fungus was following a diffusion gradient to the point source of the attractant (grain). If a wall blocked its way, the fungus would grow around it and reorient its grow towards the source again once it was past the wall. A good experiment would be to use a maze with a different design to see if the fungus still picked the shortest route or if it got "lost". Later, T34
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Birthbytongue
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: shroomydan]
#5612626 - 05/10/06 12:53 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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shroomydan said: I have always held that the distinction between vegetative and sensitive souls, and between sensitive and rational souls, is a difference in degree rather than in kind. I have argued that all souls exist on a continuum of awareness, with "vegetative" life forms on the low end of awareness, and with "rational animals" (humans), on the high end of the continuum. Every living thing is aware to a certain degree, and some life forms are more aware than others.
great post!! At least when you sift through the intellectual egotism and smarmy tones. Which, i'll have to admit, is pretty fun too. Almost like science soap opera. i should hang out in advanced more often. But shroomydan, i like your philosophical take. Using philosophy to answer what will most likely remain the unanswerable. Science purists will abhor that train of thought, but i find it neat and refreshing. Roger, Beyondsisxth, T34, shobimono, and others thanks for you intellectual input cuz it helps make ignorami like myself just a little bit smarter.
-------------------- -------------------------------------- Proliferation of knowledge is our ONLY weapon!!!!!! WAKE UP the SLEEPING!
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EquilibriuM
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: Birthbytongue]
#5612658 - 05/10/06 01:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I have found that life forms "on the low end of awareness" are seemingly much more aware in other realms. Its all about your perspective...
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Hypercube
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: EquilibriuM]
#5618878 - 05/11/06 08:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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As another philosopher to jump into the mix, lemme first say that I think science is the wrong mask to wear when looking at these phenomena.
If we're attempting to argue from analogy, say, that the reaction observed by a mushroom is like the reaction observed by beings that can rationalize, then we can argue that the hyphal network is like a neural network too. And what makes better sense than to assume that one grouping of interwoven homogenous cells in a fungal body could give rise to phenomena similar to such groupings in a mammalian brain? Sure, they don't use the same CNS configuration and synapse hardware we do, but why couldn't a fungus be aware? Initially, it seems foolish to assume that beings that span large tracts of the earth and live for millennia are simple stimulus/response machines.
Yet I ask whether we are any different. To a disinterested and wise observer, a human looks like any other machine that follows 4 lines of code instead of 2 in terms of providing a response to an action. The 'being' that does the 'being' in our heads has physical basis outside of our presently rule-defined understanding of physicality - obviously - because who in the world can "prove" what consciousness IS in physical terms?!
I just feel like we should play it safe and assume that fungi are conscious.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: Hypercube]
#5618929 - 05/11/06 08:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I agree. Sentience can exist on many levels besides the human one we're most familiar with. Watch this video http://www.mushroomvideos.com/files/10901895.wmv as the reishi mycelium surrounds and cuts off the moisture to a contaminant and tell me it isn't 'aware'. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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beyondsisxth
Title?


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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: Hypercube]
#5619052 - 05/11/06 09:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Hypercube said: If we're attempting to argue from analogy, say, that the reaction observed by a mushroom is like the reaction observed by beings that can rationalize, then we can argue that the hyphal network is like a neural network too. And what makes better sense than to assume that one grouping of interwoven homogenous cells in a fungal body could give rise to phenomena similar to such groupings in a mammalian brain?
No, you can't make that argument. The way hyphal cells are arranged and the way our neurons are arranged are totally different. Hyphal cells are only connected to whats immediately surrounding them, while neurons have axon and dendrites that allow connections of far greater complexity, and its the very complexity that allows our minds to take on their modular structure which gives rise to this whole "Consciousness" thing. There is a network in the cells of fungi completed with cell to cell cytoplasmic channels, and thats how the hormonal system works and communicates. But this arrangement just simply isn't complex enough to allow for this level of self-awareness and precognition that everyone here wants to ascribe to it.
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Sure, they don't use the same CNS configuration and synapse hardware we do, but why couldn't a fungus be aware? Initially, it seems foolish to assume that beings that span large tracts of the earth and live for millennia are simple stimulus/response machines.
That CNS configuration and synapse hardware is what makes this all possible. There's a steady decline in cognitive abilities the farther back along the evolutionary line you go as you traverse animals with smaller and smaller configurations of neurons. In that regard I'd certainly argue that jellyfish are more aware than plants and fungi, but even then they still wouldn't be aware at any level above coded instincts/behaviors.
Additionally, its silly to make the assumption that simply because an life-form has lived for large time spans and invaded many ecosystems and niches that it is somehow sentient. Bacteria has been around as long as anything and it exists almost everywhere, but would you ascribe sentience to it?
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Yet I ask whether we are any different. To a disinterested and wise observer, a human looks like any other machine that follows 4 lines of code instead of 2 in terms of providing a response to an action. The 'being' that does the 'being' in our heads has physical basis outside of our presently rule-defined understanding of physicality - obviously - because who in the world can "prove" what consciousness IS in physical terms?!
In many respects humans do simply follow four lines of code, luckily one of those lines coded for a complex brain which has given us excellent scenario rationalizing skills and information processing. And there are a great many scientists right now trying to prove what consciousness is and what brings our "awareness" about who have published a lot of interesting info they've found. Assuming its impossible doesn't mean we'll never figure it out completely, and we're already making some impressive headway.
-------------------- The sun was pulling cheap shots doing commercial body tricks, Behind the back, Under the leg, I think he even did a headspin, On a crossfader that sounded whack, But looked excellent, All of the sudden it gets dim, The crater face steps in, Puts mexican drumbreaks on the Technics, He's like "Let's begin", He conducted an orchestra so dope the sun started sweatin' him, I guess he'd expected to win on pure artistic merit, Composing complex plays with nothin but soundbytes, Burned out the lights, Made MCs too self conscious quit the master mics, For a thousand nights, It continued without a single slip up, Except once the record skipped, But it kinda sounded cool.
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Feelers
Anti-Myth-Rhythm-Rock-Shocker


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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5619121 - 05/11/06 09:30 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I dont follow the above video, to me it looks like the contam is releasing an inhibiter, and the myc is just growing where it can.
"Awareness" is a bit of a flismy term. I'd put it in the realms of IQ testing - its biased towards whoever makes up the term/test. You are looking to draw a comparison between two unlike entities. They are either in the box, or not in this that respect.
I dont really think its important. Its not really science, its philosophy. I look at it like this - trigger and effect. The wind/humidity/whatever is triggering a reaction, so there must be some sort of reaction going on within. Doesn't look like a nerve impulse, so odds are it's chemicially induced.
Some questions : if you blow on only one half and shelter the other, do both halves release spores? I think you mean it does, so that correlates well with a chemical release - along with the lull. So, question is what can travel around that quickly through the network. Would the chemical have to go through any membranes?
Is there a mexican wave effect? - (you would need a big mushroom to test that one fully.  If it is a simultaneous ejection no matter how far away from the initial disturbance the release is - things are much more complicated.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: beyondsisxth]
#5619306 - 05/11/06 10:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
beyondsisxth said:
No, you can't make that argument. Hyphal cells are only connected to whats immediately surrounding them, while neurons have axon and dendrites that allow connections of far greater complexity,
Incorrect. Mycelial cells are connected not only to adjacent cells, but to the entire network via the clamp connections that connect each cell to the cell next to it. Smaller strands connect to larger strands, then to even larger pathways(ala spinal column?) It becomes one complete coherent organism. That's why full colonization of the substrate is one of the biggest pinning triggers of all. If the cells at one end of the substrate didn't know what was happening at the other end of the substrate, how do they all pin at once?
It's important to remember that we shouldn't attempt to define sentience by our human experience of ego consciousness. Since science can't define human consciousness, it certainly can't pretend to define what is and is not consciousness in other creatures. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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texas34
Lurker

Registered: 12/03/05
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5621293 - 05/12/06 01:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hi all. First some overdue info on chemotropism. Then some comments on the newer posts. So mycelia has been found to sense chemicals and grow towards them. Most fungi are detecting volatile compounds and not a nutrient source. Only the oomycetes have been shown to detect nutrients (amino acids) directly. By the way, the oomycetes are not true fungi. They are related to a group of algae called the ochrophytes. In a paper from way back in 1981, a couple researchers discovered that mycelia growing from sclerotia of Sclerotium rolfsii(now called Athelia rolfsii, which is a basidiomycete) displayed "directional growth . . . toward the source of volatiles" which was "observed on all substrates." The paper is titled: Mycelia Growth and Infection Without a Food Base by Eruptively Germinating Sclerotia of Sclerotium rolfsii from Vol. 71,No. 10 of the journal Phytopathology. In addition, Jim Deacon author of Fungal Biology states (in the book), "The hyphae of many fungi show tropic responses to non-nutrient factors of potential ecological relevance." You can check out the book Here or at any other major bookstore I'm sure. Anyway, I'm not saying this is definitely what was going on, but I think it is likely.
Overall, I am tending to agree with the science people on this topic; however, everyone seems to be a little confused on terms. I have to agree that all forms of life on Earth are sentient, which simply means responsive to stimuli. A rock is not sentient, but bacteria, fungi, plant, and animals are sentient. It is whether or not all these lifeforms are conscious that the disagreement is centered around. I have to agree that it is the presence of a neural network that allows a higher state of sentience.
In regards to the comment by beyondsisxth that,
Quote:
The way hyphal cells are arranged and the way our neurons are arranged are totally different. Hyphal cells are only connected to whats immediately surrounding them, while neurons have axon and dendrites that allow connections of far greater complexity
I have to say that he is on the money. A single neuron (one cell) can run the full length of the spinal cord, bypassing millions of "regular" cell in the process. An electrochemical impulse runs the full length of the neuron in milliseconds. This is much faster than could be accomplished by passing info through all those "regular" cells. Fungal cells can only pass a signal on to it's immediate neighbors regardless of any side branching and what not. Now the side connection can speed up the process, but the signal still goes from cell to cell through the dolipore.
Also, Roger's suggestion that "Mycelial cells are connected not only to adjacent cells, but to the entire network via the clamp connections that connect each cell to the cell next to it" is just plain wrong. First, clamps only occur between adjacent cells, so how could they connect all the cells? Second, the purpose of the clamp connections is to transfer the nuclei from a newly formed dikaryon back into the two separate monokaryons' hyphal networks, creating one dikaryotic mycelium. After this occurs, the clamp forms septa at both of its ends, so nothing passes through it anymore. A signal has to pass through the dolipore between each adjacent cell, which by the way is covered by a membrane on each side.
Anyway, I have to go. T34
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: texas34]
#5621386 - 05/12/06 02:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Actually, your last paragraph is just plain wrong. Clamps connect across the cell wall to each successive cell. There's not one clamp connection and then the whole mess suddenly becomes dikaryotic. Also, nothing forms across the clamp after genetic information is exchanged to close it off "so nothing passes through it anymore". That would make it a bit hard for the fruitbodies to receive moisture from the substrate wouldn't it? A good microscope will let you watch material travel down the length of the mycelium, passing through clamp connections, not the cell walls, from cell to cell as they flow continuously. In fact I have a movie of this very phenomona. It's also been shown that if you introduce heavy metals at one end of the network, they will make their way to every single cell in the network.
With mycelium, the entire network is connected. Period. That is a mycological fact. There may not be a direct connection from your computer to mine, but both are connected to a modem(adjacent cell) and that is connected to the cell next to it(cable or phone line/fiber etc.), then to the network, therfore material can flow from your computer to mine and back. The internet makes an excellent analogy to perfect fungi. In fact, it's one of Stamets favorite analogies to make in his books and seminars. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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texas34
Lurker

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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5621487 - 05/12/06 02:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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OK, I guess I was being too general and not clear enough. Of course clamps form between every cell. I certainly was not suggesting otherwise. The process of spreading the dikaryon occurs one cell at a time through clamps until the entire mycelium is dikaryotic. Check This out and tell me that a septum isn't laid down at the clamp connection, blocking it off. Fruitbodies receive their moisture through the dolipore septa between every cell not through clamps.
I also wasn't suggesting that mycelia isn't interconnected only that a signal still has to go cell by cell. The branching allows the process to go faster because one cell can pass the signal onto more than one or two other cells. Not every cell will be interconnected this way. It not point A straight to point B, and every cell would end up getting the signal. T34
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shirley knott
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: texas34]
#5621731 - 05/12/06 04:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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i believe mycelium has intelligence as a deer has intelligence. it finds the best environment by using the tricks evolution taught it, sensory mechanisms and metabolic processes that work until they can no longer continue, built in with an unexplained quest to self-propogate
-------------------- buh
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Holydiver
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: shroomydan]
#5627946 - 05/14/06 10:33 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Shroomydan showed this phenomenon to me in person over the weekend. It was amazing to witness, to say the least.
-------------------- To find a place to live between the negatives and positives.
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beatnicknick
The Innovator


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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: Holydiver]
#5830657 - 07/07/06 06:14 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Interesting post. I wonder what catergorie venus fly traps fall under? They have to be vegatative, they can't move or think and I'm sure have very little to no awareness. But then, they are sensitive to those flies. Of course that's only triggered by little hairs, they dont actually see or hear the flies with actual sense and catch them, as a "sensitive soul" would. So that settles that. But, here's something else to think about with venus fly traps. Are they considered carnivores, even though they also make there own food with the sun and dirt, which would put them in another catergorie (not herbivore or omnivore, i forget the name) even though they eat flies as well?
Why can't I stay on topic? I must have raging ADD.
-------------------- I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.
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Feelers
Anti-Myth-Rhythm-Rock-Shocker


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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: beatnicknick]
#5830711 - 07/07/06 07:03 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Venus fly traps snap closed the same way plants grow towards light or grow vertical. Everything is just a trigger - (mechanical actcion/light/gravity) and when the trigger is set off a chemical reaction takes place that fires up a protein that results in the end action.
Quote:
When the trigger hairs are stimulated, an action potential (mostly involving calcium ions )- is generated, which propagates across the lobes and stimulates cells in the lobes and in the midrib between them. Exactly what this stimulation does is still debated: cells in the outer layers of the lobes and midrib may rapidly secrete protons into their cell walls, loosening them and allowing them to swell rapidly by osmosis and acid growth; alternatively, cells in the inner layers of the lobes and midrib may rapidly secrete other ions, allowing water to follow by osmosis, and the cells to collapse. Both, either or neither of these mechanisms may play a role.
RR I am sceptical about the maze thing - are you able to post more on it? - my geuss for its' action would be that the chemicals leeching from the food create a gradient in the media that create a path for the mycelia to follow.
There is an interesting phenomenon in some cyanobacteria(the type that forms that green hairy slime stuff arthrospira maybe) - if you place a light at one end of the holding tank the entire mass will "crawl" to that end of the tank. Pretty impressive stuff for a bacteria. 
I think the debate is over the definition of sensitivity - every organism is "sensitive" to something.
Mycelia cannot show "memory", many animals with neurons still cant do that.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: beatnicknick]
#5830928 - 07/07/06 09:43 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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beatnicknick said: they are sensitive to those flies. Of course that's only triggered by little hairs, they dont actually see or hear the flies with actual sense and catch them, as a "sensitive soul" would. So that settles that.
Really now? I could as easily say that humans hear by 'little bones in the ear' so therefore they aren't sensitive.
Quote:
Feelers said:
RR I am sceptical about the maze thing - are you able to post more on it? - my geuss for its' action would be that the chemicals leeching from the food create a gradient in the media that create a path for the mycelia to follow.
--------------------------------- Mycelia cannot show "memory", many animals with neurons still cant do that.
If it were the chemicals from the food, why didn't the mycelium follow them on the first pass? Why did it take until the third pass for the mycelium to jump over the walls of the maze in order to take the shortcut?
I believe mycelium does have memory. I'll trust my own experiments over speculation. I believe what I can see. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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Jim


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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: shroomydan]
#5831439 - 07/07/06 12:36 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Dan, that is the coolest video I have seen! With just a breath of air you caused that...
It looks very similar to the cups I find around here...
-------------------- Use the Fucking Reply To Feature You Lazy Pieces of Shit! afoaf said: Jim, if you were in my city, I would let you fuck my wife.
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SickShroomer
Retired Shroom Master


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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: Jim]
#5832205 - 07/07/06 03:20 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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This is cool... ;]
-------------------- Going to miss the PNW gatherings. I'm not here trying to make anyone feel stupid or to make myself feel good by putting ppl down. I am just here to help fellow shroomerites in there grows. I do this to keep my own knowledge fresh, and to help everyone succeed!
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