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Offlinebarfightlard
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Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall?
    #5601399 - 05/07/06 03:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Jet fuel cannoot burn hot enough to cause steal to turn into molten metal, but Thermite can. Was it the substance that caused molten metal to be dripping from the WTC?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2991254740145858863&q=cameraplanet%2B9/11

http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/thermite_id_culprit_wtc_collapse.htm


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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


Edited by bellylard (05/07/06 03:20 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: barfightlard]
    #5601458 - 05/07/06 03:34 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Oh, yay.  Another whackadoo post about the towers falling. :shiftyeyes: :tinfoil:Yep, we need lots more of these.


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Offlinejcdangerously
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: barfightlard]
    #5601492 - 05/07/06 03:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

George Bush is a robot! Startling new evidence here.


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OfflineMrMolotov
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: jcdangerously]
    #5601501 - 05/07/06 03:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

the terrorists didnt have any thermite. it would have been from the massive fires caused by the jetfuel the jetfuel got things really really hot and the added burning of office supplies,chaiirs and such would have done it how would they have gotten enough thermite into the plane withour being discovered.


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5601506 - 05/07/06 03:52 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

whackadoo??

Ok, you tell me what caused that molten steel?


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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


Edited by bellylard (05/07/06 03:55 PM)


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: MrMolotov]
    #5601514 - 05/07/06 03:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MrMolotov said:
the terrorists didnt have any thermite. it would have been from the massive fires caused by the jetfuel the jetfuel got things really really hot and the added burning of office supplies,chaiirs and such would have done it how would they have gotten enough thermite into the plane withour being discovered.




Prove to me that jet fuel with the addition of basically wood and plastic could have got hot enough to turn steel into molten. It would have been easier to hide Thermite inside the WTC rather than get a large enough amount into some planes.


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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


Edited by bellylard (05/07/06 03:55 PM)


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: barfightlard]
    #5601647 - 05/07/06 04:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

interesting.. if nothing else, that thermite eating through the car engine was cool as hell.


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OfflineSirFrancisBacon
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: kotik]
    #5601671 - 05/07/06 04:42 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

thermite, it just has to be thermite.


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OfflineTurn
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: SirFrancisBacon]
    #5602031 - 05/07/06 06:20 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah I want someone to come out and explain all these weird things, like the melting point of the steel issue, why it looks like explosions are coming out of the side as the towers are falling, and why WTC 7 fell. Then I could say, ahhh ok so it was just a conspiracy, and sleep well at night.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Turn]
    #5602056 - 05/07/06 06:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The cause of all the whackjob theories is an extremely plastic and explosive material known as 'Tardite.


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: barfightlard]
    #5602072 - 05/07/06 06:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Well the steel doesn't have to be totally liquified. Heated steel would flow like butter as the towers collapsed.


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Catalysis]
    #5602391 - 05/07/06 08:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Catalysis said:
Well the steel doesn't have to be totally liquified. Heated steel would flow like butter as the towers collapsed.




The moulten was pouring out minutes before the tower collapsed.


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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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Offlinerickpsfuckyou
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: barfightlard]
    #5603354 - 05/07/06 11:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

in the history of steel reinforced buildings, only three have ever fallen or collapsed from fire ever, in recorded history they were the twin towers and building wtc-7. there was also a plane that crashed into a skyscraper in spain and that one stood tall still on fire for over ten hours. the german prime minister went public in the european press saying that wtc-7 was used to run the black ops/training exercises that day that caused confusion and a delayed response to the hijacks, and allowed them to happen the destruction of the building wtc-7 conveniently destroyed hella physical evidence of any wrong doing. there was a scientist/physics proffessor at Brigham Young university who has done a study and came to the same explosive/thermite conclusion. it is what it is. if you don't believe read about it. copy and paste these
http://infowars.com/articles/sept11/wtc7_german_minister_says_building_7_was_hq.htm
http://infowars.com/articles/sept11/thermite_id_culprit_wtc_collapse.htm
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7762750380274876390&q=CameraPlanet&pl=true
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=5296


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: barfightlard]
    #5604021 - 05/08/06 04:54 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

At least thermite is a plausable cause, unlike explosives. A few things to remember... I can easily melt steel with burning jet fuel, all that is required is a large volume of moving air... just because you see something molten pouring out of the building does not mean that you are looking at molten steel. Just because molten steel was found in the rubble does not mean that the streams of molten material seen in the pictures is steel... a lot of potential energy was released when the towers dropped and much of this energy went into heat.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Seuss]
    #5604164 - 05/08/06 07:46 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

are you trying to say that the towers' potential energy was powerful enough to melt steel??


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: exclusive58]
    #5604207 - 05/08/06 08:23 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

> are you trying to say that the towers' potential energy was powerful enough to melt steel??

If the potential energy had been converted completely into heat, then yes; however, this was not what happened and this is not what I meant.

Take a butane lighter and try to melt a steel nail. You can perhaps heat the nail to red hot, but it will not melt. With this in mind, one could claim that butane does not burn hot enough to melt steel. This claim is not true. If you use a lot of butane in combination with an air blower, you can create enough heat to melt steel.


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OfflineDarcho
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Seuss]
    #5604226 - 05/08/06 08:33 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Although butane, and even jet fuel, could create enough heat to melt steel, this would only be possible if it was not a diffuse flame. The flames in the WTC Twin Towers were diffuse flames.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Seuss]
    #5604237 - 05/08/06 08:38 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Ok, so do you think that the jetfuel combined with the wind, was responsible for melting all that steel?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Darcho]
    #5604246 - 05/08/06 08:40 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

> The flames in the WTC Twin Towers were diffuse flames.

The average was diffuse (and cool) which is why there was so much black smoke. However, this does not negate the possiblity of hot spots. Anywhere that air could have easily reached the fire, such as near the elevator shafts, would be a prime candidates for hot spots.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Seuss]
    #5604260 - 05/08/06 08:46 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Did you see the pics of the molten steel at ground zero? Do you really think that a few hotspots on a few levels near elevators could melt so much steel and make the structures of the towers fail?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: exclusive58]
    #5604312 - 05/08/06 09:22 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

> Did you see the pics of the molten steel at ground zero?

I saw pictures of something molten. From the pictures, the molten substance could have easily been plastic as steel.

> Do you really think that a few hotspots on a few levels near elevators could melt so much steel and make the structures of the towers fail?

You are mixing two different things here... hotspots that can melt steel and the towers falling. I am certainly not qualified to make such a judgment. My background is explosives and geology/mining related, not civil engineering.

I am as certain as I can be that explosives were not used in the twin towers during 9/11. Although I doubt thermite was used, it is a much more plausable explaination than explosives. I can easily argue against explosives. I find it difficult to argue against thermite. This doesn't mean that I think thermite was the cause, only that thermite fits the evidence where explosives do not.

I can still come up with questions for the thermite crowd. If thermite were used, there would be a very hot fire somewhere in the building. This fire would need to burn for a while in order to bring the building down. Why is there no sign of fire anywhere other than where the plane crashed? The thermite would have had to been placed on or near the floors that the planes crashed into in order to remain hidden while it burned. One of many problems with the thermite theory... I suppose the thermite could have been in the planes... *shrug* As I said, much harder for me to argue against thermite.


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OfflineDarcho
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Seuss]
    #5605271 - 05/08/06 02:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> The flames in the WTC Twin Towers were diffuse flames.

The average was diffuse (and cool) which is why there was so much black smoke. However, this does not negate the possiblity of hot spots. Anywhere that air could have easily reached the fire, such as near the elevator shafts, would be a prime candidates for hot spots.




The average was? What other type of flame was there? It definitely was not a pre-mixed flame: the oxidizing agent and the fuel were not already mixed together; the oxidizing agent came from the air within the WTC Towers and the air external to the towers.


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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Seuss]
    #5605286 - 05/08/06 02:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I can still come up with questions for the thermite crowd. If thermite were used, there would be a very hot fire somewhere in the building. This fire would need to burn for a while in order to bring the building down. Why is there no sign of fire anywhere other than where the plane crashed? The thermite would have had to been placed on or near the floors that the planes crashed into in order to remain hidden while it burned. One of many problems with the thermite theory... I suppose the thermite could have been in the planes... *shrug* As I said, much harder for me to argue against thermite.





Actualy yes, the interviews with firefighters saying the ground floors and the lobby were destroyed. Pannels falling off walls, looked like an explosion happened in the lobby. Talk of people burning in the lobby, ect. What do you have to say about this


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Seuss]
    #5605955 - 05/08/06 05:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I saw pictures of something molten. From the pictures, the molten substance could have easily been plastic as steel.




LOL, I just watched that video and I would say it might be aluminum from the aircraft or another source. I can't figure out how you guys came to the conclusion that it is steel. The melting point of aluminum is right around the critical temperature where steel loses its strength but it is less than half the melting point of most steels.

That, combined with the fact that multiple people responsible admitted doing it and during the cartoon protests muslims were carrying around signs that said "we will make another 911 happen" pretty much seals the deal for me.

I am not sure what there is to gain by trying to convince people that the US is really the bad guy responsible for 911. That muslims really like Americans and they would never do such a thing even while they routinely kill civilians. It just seems kind of...absurd.


Edited by Catalysis (05/08/06 06:12 PM)


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Offlineguri
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5606468 - 05/08/06 08:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

people where in flames in the lobby because burning fuel fell down the elevator shaft then spilled into the lobby. there is a video called 9/11 by two french film makers (jules and gideon naudet)who happened to be following around firefighters that day, one of them walked into the lobby minutes after the first plane hit and saw people running around in flames because of the fuel.


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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: guri]
    #5606641 - 05/08/06 09:13 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Roger that


--------------------
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"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."


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Offlined33p
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: barfightlard]
    #5606643 - 05/08/06 09:13 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Molten steel is the biggest damn red herring for all these CT nuts. If thermite caused the pools, where are the enormous deposits of Fe and Al2O3? The amount of thermite needed to create pools that big(and they were fucking big) would be astronomical. There is no way no one would have noticed this.

You can claim that thermite was used to cut a few supports and start the collapse(which is retarded for numerous reasons) but for the love of god don't think that thermite created those big pools. Why would they have used so much thermite when only a few supports needed to be cut to bring it down? Where was the incredibly bright light that would have been produced while the thermite reaction was taking place? Where did all of the Fe and Al2O3 go? How did they know where to place the thermite? There are many other questions that have slipped my mind just now as well.


Oh yea and exclusive you can kid yourself all day long because this topic has been discussed here ad nauseum and you still play(im starting doubt that its playing) dumb.

Steel did not need to melt for the towers to collapse! Get it through your fucking head.

My guess is that the energy of the collapsing tower was primarily transfered into the core's beams as they twisted during the collapse. The transfer of energy was so great that they were superheated and became molten slag.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: barfightlard]
    #5606687 - 05/08/06 09:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bellylard said:
Prove to me that jet fuel with the addition of basically wood and plastic could have got hot enough to turn steel into molten. It would have been easier to hide Thermite inside the WTC rather than get a large enough amount into some planes.




Ha! Prove to you? Prove to the guy that believes some ludicrous thing about 9/11 with absolutely nothing other than doubt of the validity of the official story? Well, i shouldn't but i'll try.

Take a small piece of steel about the thickness of a match stick and 6 inches long. Twist it over and over. Does it get hot? Well, I'll spoil the surprise, it does get hot. Now think on a bigger scale.


The fires in the tower only needed to weaken the steel supports until enough weight was being spread among the remaining supports that weren't damaged or completely removed by the initial crash. At this point either the floor brackets(my belief) or the outer support columns would have failed beginning a domino effect.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: MrMolotov]
    #5606797 - 05/08/06 10:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MrMolotov said:
the terrorists didnt have any thermite. it would have been from the massive fires caused by the jetfuel the jetfuel got things really really hot and the added burning of office supplies,chaiirs and such would have done it how would they have gotten enough thermite into the plane withour being discovered.





that theory is about as believable as the thermite.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #5607604 - 05/09/06 05:00 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Alright... I will argue the opposite for a while. I honestly do not believe that thermite was there, but I will try:

Quote:

If thermite caused the pools, where are the enormous deposits of Fe and Al2O3? The amount of thermite needed to create pools that big(and they were fucking big) would be astronomical. There is no way no one would have noticed this.




The pools would be iron for the most part.  The aluminum oxide vaporizes into gas as the thermite burns.  Packed into 55 gallon drums, a lot of thermite could be placed fairly easily.

Quote:

You can claim that thermite was used to cut a few supports and start the collapse(which is retarded for numerous reasons) but for the love of god don't think that thermite created those big pools.

Why would they have used so much thermite when only a few supports needed to be cut to bring it down?




I would never claim that thermite was used to cut supports.  I would claim that thermite could be used to create a fire so hot that it could not be extinguished where placed.  I would also claim that the fire would eventually cause the building to fail.  The failure would occur because of gross structural failure, not because a few supports were cut.  The volume of thermite used would be required to generate the intense heat needed to cause a large failure.

Quote:

Where was the incredibly bright light that would have been produced while the thermite reaction was taking place? Where did all of the Fe and Al2O3 go? How did they know where to place the thermite? There are many other questions that have slipped my mind just now as well.




I have burned a lot of thermite in my youth.  Thermite is not bright when it burns... at least, not like magnesium bright.  It gives off huge volumes of smoke and lots of burning sparks are sprayed out from the fairly violent reaction.

The iron would be located in the rubble.  I assume this is the "large pools of molten steel" that they found.  The aluminum, as it oxidizes, turns into a gas.  There are usually splatter marks from molten aluminum or iron around the reaction, but this could easily be hidden by the fallen building rubble.

They would have had to place the thermite around the same location as the planes crashed in order to hide it.  This one I can't answer... :grin:  One idea I came up with is that thermite was in the planes instead of luggage/people.  (*sigh* I know, I know...)

I suppose the reason that the thermite theory is so much harder to discredit is because the end result of thermite is very much like the end result of burning jet fuel.


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Invisible013akilper

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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: barfightlard]
    #5608246 - 05/09/06 10:52 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

some people are fucking idiots


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Offlinequillini
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: 013akilper]
    #5608527 - 05/09/06 12:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

013akilper said:
some people are fucking idiots




Only those who don't ask questions.

To all of you who want to call names, lookey here. Some people, unlike yourselves, are not satisfied with the official account of what happened on 9/11. There are holes. This is not to argue a conspiracy per se, although even the official account requires you to believe a conspiracy. Al Qaida = conspiracy, folks. There is no lone gunman theory here.

No one is saying the US is the "bad guy" or whatever. This isn't about good and evil, I don't give a fuck what GWB says about it. This is about a complex series of events that caused other events, and as these events unfold, it's important to ask questions about what's going on instead of taking some story and believing it without question. That is truly foolish.

Just because some angry muslims run their mouth does not mean the entire muslim world had something to do with 9/11. That doesn't even make sense. Did you know there was a candlelight vigil in Teheran on 9/12? Doesn't sound too celebratory to me. And when exactly did OBL confess to 9/11? The guy in the tape the FBI put out looks and acts nothing like him, and OBL has actually denied any connection to the attacks. I'm not saying he's crying himself to sleep over them or anything, but how much actual evidence does the government have as to his involvement?

You can answer any way you like, but the fact is you do not know. No one does. Our government has kept important things like this secret. Why? I have no idea, but them's the facts. That's what smells rotten here, above anything else. Why don't our leaders just tell us what they know, so we can move on? There are a ton of things that need to be explained, that's all I'm saying.

I don't think that makes me a nut.


--------------------
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Offlinequillini
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Seuss]
    #5608593 - 05/09/06 12:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Seuss, what's your explanation of what appear to be explosions coming from the sides of the towers as they fell?

As on Tower 7:
http://www.plaguepuppy.net/public_html/video%20archive/squibview.7.qt

There is similar phenomena during the collapse of the other two towers. If it's not explosives, what is it?


--------------------
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OfflineViveka
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: quillini]
    #5608934 - 05/09/06 02:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Displacement. If you squeeze a paper bag full of air, does the air inside go somewhere or does it just disappear?

When a building collapses on itself, the part of the building that is falling onto the empty space below begins to occupy that once empty space. You have air inside that has to go somewhere being ejected out of any avaliable port, ie: windows, along with dust, debris and smoke. This is a very basic concept and if you aren't grasping this almost immediately in your analysis of what happened to the WTC, I would suggest that something is limiting your ability to analyze the issue impartially.

If you want to believe the WTC was taken down with explosives by a shadow U.S. agency or whatever you will see controlled demolition explosions instead of displaced air ejecta, even though the latter explanation is far more rational. You have placed a filter over your perception because you harbor attachment to whatever reality tunnel you find the most intriguing, as grossly illogical as it may be.



Edited by EvilEye? (05/09/06 02:23 PM)


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OfflineAldous
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Viveka]
    #5609222 - 05/09/06 03:30 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

This may or may not explain the squibs that are visible after the Twin Towers had started to collapse.

But it seems you didn't follow the link above. The squibs on WTC7 move UPwards, not down. They move upwards extremely fast, much faster even than the evolution of the collapse. And, get this, those squibs appear BEFORE the building has even started to fall down.

"Displacement"??  :confused:  :rolleyes:
Think again.

And also, watch the link now, and compare it to controlled demolition footage, where you see squibs moving extremely fast throughout the surface of the building at the exact moment it STARTS its fall, but has not really moved yet. Does this remind you of something you've just seen?


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Aldous]
    #5609320 - 05/09/06 03:53 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

how can you say displacement when the floors that show the debris shooting out of the windows are 10-15 floors below the subsequent floors which were being collapsed at the same time.


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5609789 - 05/09/06 06:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)



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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Luddite]
    #5609823 - 05/09/06 06:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

> what's your explanation of what appear to be explosions coming from the sides of the towers as they fell?

It looks to be debris spit out as the building starts to collapse. It is hard to tell, because the video starts halfway through the event, but it appears that the building is well under its way down before the clouds start.

The video is poor quality, but I did not see any sort of flash that would be associated with an explosive. Not a fireball, but a flash, in fireball colors.

The spacing is also not even. A floor or two are skipped.

The placement makes no sense for explosives, at least from a demolition standpoint.


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Seuss]
    #5609849 - 05/09/06 06:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

OK luddite, I am going to put it all aside (all the physics that is). Even though I still doubt the plane caused the collapse, I am goin to ask you, Why all the political stuff going on right before? and why SOOOO much coincidence with the people involved?

AKA
New American Nation
Pilot of one of the planes working for the CIA 1 year earlier
New American Nation calling for a "Pearl Harbor like attack" to redifine our nations defence policy?
Harboring Osama Bin Laden on the day before the attack?
CIA Agents meeting with OBL in the years leading up to the attack while he was a well known terrorist?
The United States planning an attack on Afghanistan AND Iraq on the day of 9/11?

Curious


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5609987 - 05/09/06 07:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

David_vs_Goliath said:
New American Nation calling for a "Pearl Harbor like attack" to redifine our nations defence policy?




I have repeatedly corrected people who make this claim. That paper never called for a "new Pearl Harbor". It merely recognized that a new Pearl Harbor could bring about a climate in which certain things could or would happen. Big difference.


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Catalysis]
    #5610045 - 05/09/06 07:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Catalysis said:
Quote:

I saw pictures of something molten. From the pictures, the molten substance could have easily been plastic as steel.




LOL, I just watched that video and I would say it might be aluminum from the aircraft or another source. I can't figure out how you guys came to the conclusion that it is steel. The melting point of aluminum is right around the critical temperature where steel loses its strength but it is less than half the melting point of most steels.

That, combined with the fact that multiple people responsible admitted doing it and during the cartoon protests muslims were carrying around signs that said "we will make another 911 happen" pretty much seals the deal for me.

I am not sure what there is to gain by trying to convince people that the US is really the bad guy responsible for 911. That muslims really like Americans and they would never do such a thing even while they routinely kill civilians. It just seems kind of...absurd.




aluminium does not glow red/orange when it melts iot just gets kinda "wet" looking.
oh and about the heat, the elevator shafts would have acted like wind tunnels because the fire would have sucked air up through them at a high rate which would easily fan the fire.

bush had been planning on invading iraq before september 11th and you know it they said so in the memo with tony blair which is before the attack i belive. not quite sure.

and god damnit i forgot what i was gonna say... um shit.


--------------------


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Edited by MrMolotov (05/09/06 07:46 PM)


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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: MrMolotov]
    #5610188 - 05/09/06 07:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

not really, its like saying it in a politically correct way so they can't get F---ed for saying it. Pretty obvious when they say this and then it gets disteriously deleted off the website about 2 months ago. I read it and im pretty sure it didnt just recognize that, But i will give you the benefit of the doubt and try to find it again.


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5610239 - 05/09/06 08:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

A "catastrophic and catalyzing event — like a new Pearl Harbor" (page 51).

Just admit it, that is fucked up.

Check out this site on the PNAC (new american century).
To tell you the truth, I would have never been concerned with any of the 9/11 conspiracies or anything dealing with Iraq or Iran untill I read this. Pretty messed up organization expecially when you look at the main people involved.

Even if you dont wana check the site out at least look at the list of people involved and their jobs in the government/media.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: MrMolotov]
    #5610492 - 05/09/06 09:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

aluminium does not glow red/orange when it melts iot just gets kinda "wet" looking.




Thats not true. It all depends on the temperature and composition. Attributing that heated material to steel is nothing more than creating evidence to support a pre-determined conclusion.

In other words, you first come up with the conclusion that the building was pulled and then try to bend the evidence into that framework.

Could it be steel? Maybe. Is it more likely a lower BP metal or plastic, even if thermite was used? Yes. Thats about all I can get from it.


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Aldous]
    #5610906 - 05/09/06 11:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The squibs on WTC7 move UPwards, not down. They move upwards extremely fast, much faster even than the evolution of the collapse. And, get this, those squibs appear BEFORE the building has even started to fall down.




What you are doing now is playing the role of what's been called an armchair physicist. Really, you don't have enough information about the construction of that building, the circumstances of the building's collapse, or the physics of building collapse or demolition in general, certainly not from that video, yet you are making blunt assumptions about a very complex event.

Why is it any less plausible to assume that the "squibs" as you're calling them in that lo res, cropped WTC7 clip are an effect of the structural integrity of the building failing? There is a tremendous mass of material in a building like that and if the stability fails, there is a tremendous amount of energy released as entropy takes the place of structural stability. All that energy could translate to effects you may not be able to anticipate even if you were a strucural engineer.

So some pieces of the building disintegrated just as it was falling to the ground. No big surprise! The fact that it happens on multiple floors in a sequence should also not surprise anyone since buildings are a sequence of floors. You also seem SURE the "squibs" appear "BEFORE the building has even started to fall down", but can you really be sure of that? How do you know that the collapsing event hasn't already started before the building appears to move horizontally downward? Couldn't the structure be compromised enough on certain dimensions so that parts of the buildings face began to disintegrate, BEFORE you are able to perceive horizontal downard movement? Especially when you consider that the video clip is cropped somewhere around the begining of the event? To my eyes, the "squibs" appear just as the building is beginning to fall. It would only require a very minute shift, udetectable to watching eyes, to cause a radical change in the building's cohesion

I am not saying it is impossible that WTC7 was brought down with controlled demolition. I am suggesting that you apply Occam's Razor to your tentative explanations.


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5610954 - 05/09/06 11:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

how can you say displacement when the floors that show the debris shooting out of the windows are 10-15 floors below the subsequent floors which were being collapsed at the same time.





Please see my reply to Aldous as it applies to your question as well.

You are assuming too much about the event and not thinking about so many possibilities. Maybe there is mass inside the building that cannot be seen from the outside that is already 10-15 floors below the level at which the collapsing currently seems to be taking place. Also, the collapse wouldn't necesariily have to be at the floor just above the floor on which air and debris is being ejected from windows for that explanation to be plausible. Have you considered that the dynamics of the air moving through the building at that moment are unknowable by you or anyone else? How do you know that that the collapsing mass isn't enough to displace air 13 floors below? Maybe the ejecta can only be seen on floors where certain windows have been blown out or broken for whatever reason.

Neither you or I have the information to assert anything for sure. But if it is possible that displaced air could explain what you are seeing, how is it logical to introduce the much more convoluted theory that what you are seeing are demolition squibs?


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Luddite]
    #5611264 - 05/10/06 12:48 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

From Popular Mechanics in 1950:



--------------------
No; truth, being alive, was not halfway between anything. It was only to be found by continuous excursions into either realm, and though proportion is the final secret, to espouse it at the outset is to insure sterility.

Only connect...


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OfflineAldous
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Viveka]
    #5611439 - 05/10/06 02:33 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

EvilEye? said:
What you are doing now is playing the role of what's been called an armchair physicist.  Really, you don't have enough information about the construction of that building, the circumstances of the building's collapse, or the physics of building collapse or demolition in general, certainly not from that video, yet you are making blunt assumptions about a very complex event.


Mmm, let's see. What I have, is info about building failure history, and above all, a pair of eyes and a sense of logic.

But first of all, let's go back to what I wrote before. What I said is that "displacement" can hardly explain the smoke puffs in the video link. Another argument for this is that they're in fact very brief smoke "flashes". If they were caused by displacement, that would mean that building really didn't contain a lot of air. Look at this video, which everyone has seen. The smoke flashes can be seen at the top right, and you'll notice the building has hardly even moved when they appear. In the same video, there is a large cloud which is caused by displacement. It's the one that appears in the trail of the falling building, above the roof as the building falls, in between the right edge and the large black rectangle in the top middle of the building. It develops as the building collapses, and gets ever larger. You can almost see the dust-filled air from inside the building being sqeezed out. See the difference?

Now back to those statistics and that pair of eyes.

a) WTC 1, 2 & 7 were the first (and so far last) buildings in history to completely collapse from "fire". 1&2 were admittedly weakened by plane crashes, 7 wasn't.

b) When small parts of buildings do partially collapse from much heavier fires (see the heavy Windsor building fire in Madrid in 2005), they logically do so in a very disorderly fashion. These three buildings here completely vanished in a matter of seconds, and fell straight to the ground. They didn't topple or fall to pieces, they were pulverized... by fire and unguided collapse.  :confused:


c) WTC7 fell very orderly, from very small fires, completely and neatly inside its footprint. The central core of the building fell first and pulled the outer walls to the inside. That's what implosionworld.com describes as a genuine implosion, "by far the trickiest type of explosive demolition project, and there are only a handful of blasting companies in the world that possess enough experience—and insurance—to perform these true building implosions". But a small fire achieved it by chance... it is alleged. One of the three first building collapses by fire in history was an absolutely perfect implosion. You, my friend, are a coïncidence theorist.

d) Take a look at this page: http://www.implosionworld.com/cinema.htm, and browse around. Let's pick a few of them.
First, look at the Philips building (top right) and the Schuylkill Falls tower (4th from bottom right). Of course, they look nothing like the collapse of WTC7. Much more like the Madrid fire, right?  :rolleyes:
Second, look at the collapse of the Southwark (twin) towers (third from top left). Those smoke puffs at regular intervals look every inch like the alleged  "displacement puffs" in the WTC Twin towers. (Conceded, this is not about WTC7.)

So on the one hand, we have a hypothesis with no precedent whatsoever: for the first time in history, and on the very same day, three buildings collapsed and were pulverized to ground level, symmetrically, two of them from asymmetrical plane crashes, followed by comparatively limited fires (look at other building fires in history) in all three of them. Strangely, those fires left large pools of molten metal that remained molten for weeks after.
On the other hand, we've got a physically logical explanation, that is supported by numerous visual comparative examples, by numerous witness accounts and news reporters' accounts recorded in the spur of the moment, by expert opinion provided in the spur of the moment (google "Van Romero") and withdrawn later, and by a slip of the tongue by the landlord (also withdrawn later).

Pick your theory. It's just that I wonder how supporters of the second explanation can be so systematically derided, while those believing the official explanation get away with it. It must be Occam's razor cutting away the way too horrific idea of government involvement before it even pops up.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Aldous]
    #5611572 - 05/10/06 04:36 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

> What I said is that "displacement" can hardly explain the smoke puffs in the video link

Assumption. You do not know if that is smoke or dust.

> Another argument for this is that they're in fact very brief smoke "flashes".

My agrument was that they LACKED flashes that would be seen if explosives were present.

> If they were caused by displacement, that would mean that building really didn't contain a lot of air.

Incorrect. Very little volume of air is needed to stir up large plumes of dust. The building was mostly air, surrounded by glass and concrete held up by steel.

> The smoke flashes can be seen at the top right, and you'll notice the building has hardly even moved

Exactly. The "smoke" is seen at the top right of the building... not somewhere structural. This is not a place that explosives would be used.

Hardly moved means moved a bit. A small move of the building can create a huge volume of moving air.

> In the same video, there is a large cloud which is caused by displacement. It's the one that appears in the trail of the falling building

I don't see a difference, other than volume of dust and direction.

> WTC 1, 2 & 7 were the first (and so far last) buildings in history to completely collapse from "fire". 1&2 were admittedly weakened by plane crashes, 7 wasn't.

Incorrect. Towers 1 and 2 were hit by planes, thus fire cannot be considered the only factor. Tower 7 was damaged when towers 1 and 2 fell, so again, fire cannot be considered the only factor.

> When small parts of buildings do partially collapse from much heavier fires

Again, you are comparing a fire event, which starts small and spreads out, to a much larger event in which tens of thousands of gallons of accelerant were immediately available to feed a fire after the structure of the building had been damaged by a relatively high speed impact. You cannot compare an apple to an orange and expect it to make sense.

> and fell straight to the ground

Again, common misconception. If they had fallen staight into the ground, then none of the other buildings would have been damaged. These were not the clean demolotions that everybody likes to pretend.

> Pick your theory.

No thanks; I prefer science, engineering, and reality.


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OfflineAldous
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Seuss]
    #5611662 - 05/10/06 06:15 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Right, same old tactic I see. And successful at that: I'm not going to pick apart everything you said. I also have a life. I'll just leave it at a few examples to expose the twisted way in which you reply.
Quote:

Seuss said:
> What I said is that "displacement" can hardly explain the smoke puffs in the video link
Assumption.  You do not know if that is smoke or dust.


Right, I said "smoke", I was wrong. In every case, it would be dust. Either coming from the inside of the (not yet really) falling building, which is not my assumption. In case the puffs are from explosives, they would be dust too, from concrete pulverized by small explosions.

Quote:

> Another argument for this is that they're in fact very brief smoke "flashes".
My agrument was that they LACKED flashes that would be seen if explosives were present.


Is it my English that's too poor, or do you just pretend you didn't understand? When I say "brief smoke flashes", with flashes in between quotation marks, I don't mean "light flashes", of course. I mean small puffs that immediately stop growing, indicating they're not attributable to "displacement" like the large smoke plume I pointed out, which logically keeps on growing as the building further collapses.
BTW, watch the demos at the link I provided. You'll notice a lot of *dust* puffs clearly attributable to explosives, many of which are completely devoid of any light flash whatsoever. Try again.

Quote:

> If they were caused by displacement, that would mean that building really didn't contain a lot of air.
Incorrect.  Very little volume of air is needed to stir up large plumes of dust.



You see, that's what I mean by "tactics". You claim I said the opposite of what I said. There was, as you correctly say, a large volume of air present, and it allegedly resulted in minute dust puffs, which were allegedly attributable to displacement. I agree that only a "little volume of air is needed to stir up large plumes of dust". What I'm stating is that with the huge volume of air present in the building, the displacement will yield huge dust plumes like the one I indicated, not very brief and minute dust puffs that stop growing as soon as the building starts to collapse proper. Those had another cause.
You pretend to debunk something I didn't say with a correct statement to make it look I stated the opposite.  :thumbdown:

Quote:

I don't see a difference, other than volume of dust and direction.


Well, there *is* a significant difference then...  :confused:
Another example of your fishy debating tactics.

With all your science and reality, you cannot explain why the collapses were symmetrical (no significant toppling) as a result of completely asymmetrical and chaotic (cf. fire) events.
But that's what it is: your science, and your reality.
You're still doing extremely poorly on explaining WTC7, as does all the "science" I've seen deperately trying to explain this while excluding the obvious.
I still don't see how controlled demolition would be an "unscientific" explanation here. Its problem is not science, it's political incorrectness.


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Seuss]
    #5612677 - 05/10/06 01:13 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Man, I don't know. I just watched some demolitions at www.implosionworld.com/cinema.htm and it seems like actual flashes from explosions is sort of hit and miss, mostly miss. With one or two exceptions, all I'm seeing are plumes of smoke jetting from the buildings (from which it appears all the glass has been removed). These plumes of smoke are arranged differently with different structures, but overall they seem consistent with WTC footage:



I'm just not buying the displacement theory. I mean, if these floors were pancaking ahead of the observable collapse, it seems as though more than one or two plumes of smoke would be produced. How can the volume of air from an entire WTC floor be forced out rapidly such that it would cause only a couple of windows to break? Wouldn't the pressure break all the windows? That just seems more far-fetched than the demolitions theory.

I'm not crazy; I just need an explanation I can be satisfied with.


--------------------
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Only connect...


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5612759 - 05/10/06 01:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

David_vs_Goliath said:
A "catastrophic and catalyzing event — like a new Pearl Harbor" (page 51).

Just admit it, that is fucked up.




Did you not listen to what I said? That quote DOES NOT call for a new Pearl Harbor to be perpetrated. It merely says that a new Pearl Harbor would bring about different circumstances in the world. There is nothing nefarious in how that quote was used in the essay.


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: barfightlard]
    #5612775 - 05/10/06 01:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The winds are very consistently strong at the altitude of the fire. This may provide enough oxygen to raise the temperature of the fire high enough to melt steel. My best guess.


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: TODAY]
    #5613170 - 05/10/06 02:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Thick black smoke and hardly any visible flames do not indicate extremely hot fires. There are instances of building fires with huge infernos, and no reports of molten metal staying liquid for weeks after the fact that I know of. You can tell an extremely hot fire when you see one. Those WTC fires were nothing out of the ordinary. On arrival, the firefighters in the North Tower were confident they could put out the fire with two hoses...


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Aldous]
    #5613180 - 05/10/06 02:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)



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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Luddite]
    #5617528 - 05/11/06 02:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

ehhh... relevance?


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Aldous]
    #5618016 - 05/11/06 04:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

alot of pressure is loaded on the metal beams at the point in the building where the fire burned, heat could cause the pressure and temperature on those parts of the building to increase more rapidly than if there was not a pressure load on it at all.


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: TODAY]
    #5620180 - 05/12/06 05:06 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

...and that's why all steel buildings which suffer fires always collapse.  :nonono:

What you point out is true of all steel frame buildings...


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Aldous]
    #5620297 - 05/12/06 07:07 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

> ...and that's why all steel buildings which suffer fires always collapse.

Exactly, because all steel buildings are identical in design and construction.


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Seuss]
    #5620334 - 05/12/06 08:09 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> ...and that's why all steel buildings which suffer fires always collapse.

Exactly, because all steel buildings are identical in design and construction.




What was so flawed about the "newer" WTC buildings(especially #7)? Even the Empire state building was hit by a B-25 bomber was on fire for awhile and held.


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: barfightlard]
    #5620717 - 05/12/06 10:46 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Flawed isn't the correct term. An odd phenomena has occurred with large construction projects as engineering has progressed; things have gotten weaker. In the old days, engineers made good guesses as to how strong something needed to be. Since they didn't have computers to do structural analysis, and since they didn't want things to fall apart, they built stuff extra strong. Because modern engineers are so good, they can specify the absolute minimum material needed to meet the required safety margins. Less material equals less cost equals higher return on the investment.

> Even the Empire state building was hit by a B-25 bomber was on fire for awhile and held.

B-25 Bomber:

33,000 pounds take off weight with a fuel capacity of 974 gallons and a maximum speed of 322 MPH.

Boeing 767:

312,000 pounds take off weight with a fuel capacity of 24,000 gallons and a maximum speed of 550 MPH.


The two planes are not even in the same ballpark... like comparing a sail boat to a cruise liner.


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Seuss]
    #5620918 - 05/12/06 11:42 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

> Because modern engineers are so good, they can specify the absolute minimum material needed to meet the required safety margins.

So good their buildings can't hold their own when a simple fire takes place, hmm real good....So, your saying buildings now are weaker and less safe than 30 years ago?


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: barfightlard]
    #5621203 - 05/12/06 12:50 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bellylard said:
> Because modern engineers are so good, they can specify the absolute minimum material needed to meet the required safety margins.

So good their buildings can't hold their own when a simple fire takes place, hmm real good....So, your saying buildings now are weaker and less safe than 30 years ago?




I hope you're joking. Simple fire? lol......


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: d33p]
    #5621219 - 05/12/06 12:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

He's not joking, he's trolling


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: barfightlard]
    #5621892 - 05/12/06 05:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

> So, your saying buildings now are weaker and less safe than 30 years ago?

No. I am saying that large construction projects, such as buildings and bridges, are no longer over built. Look at cars for example. Sixty years ago, cars were big hunks of moving steel that could smash into a boulder at 100 mph and barely get dented. (Ok, a bit of a stretch, but you get the idea.) Today, cars are these little, light, platic and aluminum things that crumple. A modern car is not less safe than an older car, but it also doesn't stand up to abuse as well, either. Weaker does not have to mean less safe.


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Seuss]
    #5621933 - 05/12/06 05:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Very true. Old cadillacs are tough mofos.


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Seuss]
    #5621976 - 05/12/06 05:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Still doesn't explain building #7.


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: barfightlard]
    #5637413 - 05/16/06 01:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bellylard said:
Still doesn't explain building #7.




The physical damage wtc 7 received is always understated. This combined with the fires sustained from falling debris and the tanks of diesel fuel within the building led to the collapse.
















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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: d33p]
    #5638151 - 05/16/06 03:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
This combined with the fires sustained from falling debris and the tanks of diesel fuel within the building led to the [sudden and perfectly symmetrical] collapse [at almost freefall speed].


:rofl2:


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Aldous]
    #5638215 - 05/16/06 04:13 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

> sudden and perfectly symmetrical

Most collapses are sudden...

The building most certainly did not collapse "perfectly symmetrical", at least not by any definition of perfect and symmetric that I have ever seen.

> at almost freefall speed

Yeah, I can't understand why people would think that gravity would cause something to fall at nearly freefall speed. Amazing. Whenever I see something fall, it is always in slow motion.


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Seuss]
    #5638267 - 05/16/06 04:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:

> at almost freefall speed

Yeah, I can't understand why people would think that gravity would cause something to fall at nearly freefall speed. Amazing. Whenever I see something fall, it is always in slow motion.




Because a building falling without demolition charges encounters alot of resistance.....


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: barfightlard]
    #5638726 - 05/16/06 06:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

freefall speed
>reallly?? don't you think there would be some resistance caused from the falling floors hitting other floors that havent even been harmed by the "collision" or fires near the colision. It doesn't make sense to say that falling debris hitting the perfectly stable floors below would not slow down the collision by at least a few seconds.


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Aldous]
    #5638785 - 05/16/06 06:30 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Aldous said:
Quote:

d33p said:
This combined with the fires sustained from falling debris and the tanks of diesel fuel within the building led to the [sudden and perfectly symmetrical] collapse [at almost freefall speed].


:rofl2:




Complete and utter bullshit. You're either lying or just blind. That is not what happened in the video. Look at page 26 of this pdf. Do you doubt that the 8.2 seconds described on that page happened before the collapse of the whole building? The collapse was neither perfectly symmetrical nor at free speeds.

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/WTC%20Part%20IIC%20-%20WTC%207%20Collapse%20Final.pdf

Anyone have a video of the wtc7 collapse starting from at least 30 seconds before it is collapsed?


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: d33p]
    #5640735 - 05/17/06 02:12 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I am perfectly aware that part of the inner core started to collapse seconds earlier, you can see it on some of the videos. I am also aware that most videos are taken from the same angle (roughly from north to south), so that one always sees the same side of the building. In the rare video where you can see the south face, you realize the building was significantly damaged on that side, or at least that it looked black and smoke was coming from it. That does not explain any collapse, let alone a collapse that was symmetrical. If the south face was (let's say) really heavily damaged and the north face practically intact, you still wouldn't expect a collapse, but if one did happen for supernatural reasons, the building would have at least slightly toppled southwards. Quod non.

Back to the actual collapse. Seconds after part of the inner core collapsed, I maintain that the main body of the building did collapse suddenly (by which I mean in one smooth move without a pause or irregularity in movement between beginning and end of the collapse), perfectly symmetrically (by which I mean that throughout the collapse, the building remained as perfectly vertical as when it still stood, until the top floors hit ground level), and at near freefall speed (meaning there was no significant resistance from the structure of a building that had been standing for decades).

All these features are not only consistent with controlled demolition by explosives, they are characteristic of a perfectly carried out building implosion. They're not consistent, however, with any feature in the history of steel frame buildings destroyed by fire (and since the building stood for at least seven hours after the damage it suffered on one of four sides only, absent any explosives, it's the fire that would be responsible for the collapse).

Also, part of the inner core starting to collapse earlier is consistent with demolition as well. Just watch some demolition videos, those buildings don't start collapsing as soon as they're detonated, and some parts may go before others. The tough part, which never happens by mere chance - i.e. imploding the building right in its footprint - was perfectly achieved in WTC7.

Nuff said...


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Aldous]
    #5640895 - 05/17/06 05:34 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

> let alone a collapse that was symmetrical.

The collapse was not symmetrical.  This is obvious if you watch the building fall.  Even if the collapse was symmetrical, what would that indicate?  Only that the load bearing supports holding the building up gave way at the same time.

> If the south face was (let's say) really heavily damaged and the north face practically intact, you still wouldn't expect a collapse,

You cannot tell anything from the face of a building.  Remember, these are steel frames covered in glass.  The side of the building does nothing to add support to the structure.  Your statement is pure nonsense.

> perfectly symmetrically

Back to perfectly symmetrical... you just can't give this one up, can you?  :rolleyes:  Again, the collapse was not "perfectly symmetrical" by any means of the imagination.  Lie to yourself all you like, but it doesn't change facts.

> and at near freefall speed

Yep, when stuff falls, it falls at nearly freefall speed.  Amazing, isn't it?

> All these features are not only consistent with controlled demolition by explosives,

Again, ignorance raises it's ugly head.  There are many different types of controlled demolitions done with explosives.  The footprint implosion is done the least often because it is the most difficult to pull off.  Have you worked in the explosives industry?  I have. Have you done demolition with explosives? I have.

> They're not consistent, however, with any feature in the history of steel frame buildings destroyed by fire

Good thing this building didn't get hit by the debris from the perfect implosion of the twin towers falling because it would be both ignorant and asinine to compare other buildings that suffered fires with a building that suffered both structural damage and fires.

> meaning there was no significant resistance from the structure of a building that had been standing for decades

Yes, standing for decades before another building fell into it and it caught on fire and burned.

Using your own words to show your lack of logic in this debate:

> I am perfectly aware that part of the inner core started to collapse seconds earlier

... and ...

> within the building led to the [sudden and perfectly symmetrical] collapse [at almost freefall speed].

So which is it, did the building suddenly fall or did the part of the building start to collapse seconds before the rest of the building?


Finally, there seems to be a lot of ignorance on the manner in which explosive demolition works.  For those that want to be couch experts, read up.  A big, huge misunderstanding... the explosives don't blow up the building.  The explosives don't even cause the building to fall!  A big pile of explosives in the middle of a building is not going to do a damn thing.  Not all explosive demolitions are done the same way.  A building must be severely weakened before an explosives demolition will work.  It takes literally months of preparation for a building demolition using explosives.

This is important, Aldous, so read it slow: When using explosives for demolition, the explosives DO NOT cause the building to fall.  The explosives have one purpose, and one purpose only... to cut the structure holding the building up.  Thats right, the explosives cut the I-beams that support the buildings weight.  When the support goes away, the building PULLS ITSELF DOWN at *gasp* nearly freefall speed.  The trick to getting a footprint implosion is cutting the correct supports so that the building pulls itself down into its footprint.

Why does it take months to prepare for an explosives demolition?  Because the building is first weakened to the point that it is barely able to hold itself up.  Next, the proper I-beams must be uncovered in the building and the sides cut with a torch leaving just the center bearing weight.  Next, two shaped charges are placed exactly opposite of each other on the center of the I-beam.  These charges will work together to cut the I-beam and must be timed to go off exactly together.  Hundreds of these paired charges are placed in exact locations though out the structure of the building, generally towards the bottom.  This is not something that can be done without people taking notice or done in a few hours or even a few days.

I am not a civil engineer, nor am I a demolition expert.  However, I have done a lot of work with explosives, both in the lab and in the field.  In the lab, I have tested the properties experimental explosives for the US military.  In the field, I have worked on sites that were doing explosive demolitions, both buildings and a bridge.  I was amazed by explosives as a child and studied the field and industry growing up.  I knew the basic steps of making nitroglycerin in second grade although I didn't actually make it until my junior year in high school.  I have over 180 hours of college credit from an accredited engineering university.  What is your background, relavent to this discussion?

> Nuff said...

Hardly.


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OfflineAldous
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Seuss]
    #5640941 - 05/17/06 06:18 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Listen Suess, I'm not going to waste a lot of time on you, both for reasons I stated before (regarding the twisted way in which you choose to debate), and for obvious reasons stated below.

Let me just give 2 examples of why I'm not taking you seriously and thus won't reply to every detail.

Example 1:
Quote:

Seuss wrote:
The collapse was not symmetrical. This is obvious if you watch the building fall.
[...]
Back to perfectly symmetrical... you just can't give this one up, can you? Again, the collapse was not "perfectly symmetrical" by any means of the imagination.


Now I'd like anyone who follows this discussion to look at this footage and notice with me that the vertical line of the rightmost wall remains perfectly vertical more or less until the roof hits the rubble. Similarly, the horizontal line of the roof remains horizontal more or less until it hits the rubble. Indicating, as I stated, that the onset of the collapse was perfectly symmetrical.

To you, Seuss: do we speak the same language? Do all these words have the same meaning on my planet as on yours? Do you contend the building toppled over? If yes, to which side(s)? Should I doubt my eyes? Can such a straight (hey, maybe I should just use "straight" instead of "symmetrical"? let's try...), I said: can such a straight and neat footprint collapse be a consequence of mere chance?

Example 2:
Quote:

Have you worked in the explosives industry? I have. Have you done demolition with explosives? I have. [...] It takes literally months of preparation for a building demolition using explosives. [...]This is not something that can be done without people taking notice or done in a few hours or even a few days.



And now read what these couch expert have to say on the subject:
Quote:

from: http://www.controlled-demolition.com/default.asp?reqLocId=11
Half of the 17-story Sheikh A. Alakl Apartment Building in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia collapsed when portions of the new reinforced concrete facility were overloaded during final stages of construction. At the request of Bechtel, Controlled Demolition Incorporated’s team mobilized to the site in less than 24 hours, prepared the central-core, flat slab, reinforced concrete structure in another 27 hours and put the balance of the building on the ground with absolute safety just 96 hours after the start of demolition preparations.


Well, in my book, or on my planet, 96 hours equals 4 days, not "literally months".

Quote:

Again, ignorance raises it's ugly head. [...] there seems to be a lot of ignorance on the manner in which explosive demolition works


So true...


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Aldous]
    #5641019 - 05/17/06 07:17 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

> To you, Seuss: do we speak the same language?

Obviously not. From webster:

Perfect: being entirely without fault or defect
Symmetric: affecting corresponding parts simultaneously and similarly

Therefore, "perfectly symmetric" would mean: "entirely affecting all corresponding parts simultaneously and similarly without fault of defect"

Now, using your own words of the event:

"notice with me that the vertical line of the rightmost wall remains perfectly vertical more or less until the roof hits the rubble. Similarly, the horizontal line of the roof remains horizontal more or less until it hits the rubble."

Which is it, perfectly symmetrical or more or less symmetrical? Oh wait, I know, it is perfectly symmetrical, more or less! I am curious... how can something be more (or less) than perfectly symmetrical?

Now, had you used the wording "mostly symmetrical" or "almost symmetrical" or "nearly symmetrical" or anything other than "perfectly symmetrical" then I wouldn't have a gripe. However, by using "prefect" you are wrong and there is nothing to argue. Even your own wording shows that you know you are wrong... "more or less". But we all know that "prefectly symmetrical" makes a much stronger argument than "more or less symmetrical".

To be honest, the symmetry or lack thereof is pointless without knowing how the building was designed. If the loads of the building are well distributed (which they will be in any modern highrise structure), and the collapse of the building begins lower down, even a single corner, the top of the building will still fall (be pulled down) "more or less symmetrical" because of the way the load bearing members transfer forces to balance load. In order to get an asymmetric collapse, the explosives are timed so that one edge is weakened before another while most support members that would translate lateral load have been removed or cut.

> Well, in my book, or on my planet, 96 hours equals 4 days, not "literally months"

And the reason they are bragging about it is because it was a nearly impossible feat. They didn't have to design a footprint implosion, they only had to bring down the remaining portion of a building that had already mostly fallen. Only 17 stories, not 50+ stories. Do you go out of your way to find apples to compare with oranges, or do you really not see the difference in what you are comparing?

> And now read what these couch expert have to say on the subject:

I gave my background... how much college engineering and explosives work do you have on your resume?


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OfflineAldous
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Seuss]
    #5641972 - 05/17/06 01:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss wrote:
Now, had you used the wording "mostly symmetrical" or "almost symmetrical" or "nearly symmetrical" or anything other than "perfectly symmetrical" then I wouldn't have a gripe. However, by using "prefect" [sic] you are wrong and there is nothing to argue.



Quote:

The same Seuss wrote:
The collapse was not symmetrical. This is obvious if you watch the building fall.



Quote:

The same Seuss also wrote:
Again, the collapse was not "perfectly symmetrical" by any means of the imagination[my emphasis].


You really seem to be grasping at straws here. Sheer nit-picking. Phred comes to mind as an inspiration.
But I'll let everyone judge that for themselves. It's becoming tiringly obvious.  :rolleyes:


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Aldous]
    #5642058 - 05/17/06 02:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Aldous, it's pretty obvious that any time your assertions are refuted, you take refuge in whining about how your opponent presents his facts rather than addressing the facts he presented. You've done it to me, now you're doing it to Seuss. Seuss was by no stretch of the imagination indulging in "twisted" debate. His responses were straightforward and directly addressed the points being discussed. No hemming and hawing, no weasel wording.

And no, it's neither "nitpicking" nor "grasping at straws" to accept the words you use as they are normally used. Words have meaning -- that's why we have so many different ones. His points on your use of "perfectly symmetrical" are bang on. If you didn't mean to say the collapse was perfectly symmetrical, that's your problem, not Seuss's. I doubt very much Seuss can read minds -- he accepts your statements at face value and goes from there.

If the best you can do is whine about being misunderstood, maybe it's time to concede defeat and move on.



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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: barfightlard]
    #5642252 - 05/17/06 03:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I have too many friends who were near the WTC when it was attacked to believe it was anything other than airplaines.

My friend Eddie saw the planes hit, saw the buildings sway from the impact, and was covered in wreckage after the towers fell, while helping people escape. He was not hurt.

My friend Pattie cut the steel off the buildings, after they collapsed, to aid in recovery. He is a STEEL WORKER. He saw nothing abnormal, except the large loss of life.

My friend Mary died in the attack.

I was less than a mile away. I smelled the JET FUEL burning for three months... and saw the buildings weakening at THE POINT OF IMPACT, with my own eyes. Then they collapsed.

If there was enough GASOLINE to burn for three months (a unique scent, I assure you) I believe the fire was indeed hot enough to melt metal.

Nobody from the govt. asked me or any of my friends (especially Mary) to conspire to keep the actual events a secret.

Question: If you are going to blow up the buildings with explosives, or thermite anyway, why fly perfectly good airplaines into them?

Doesn't that ruin the element of surprise?

This is perhaps the dumbest 9-11 conspiracy I've yet heard... no... actually the "Little tiny nuke" theory was the dumbest. This is a close second.

Sometimes I wish Mary had died in a car wreck, then people unwilling to DO A LITTLE RESEARCH, would just accept the facts surrounding her death.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



Edited by Rose (05/18/06 04:13 PM)


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Rose]
    #5642342 - 05/17/06 03:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"If there was enough GASOLINE to burn for three months (a unique scent, I assure you) I believe the fire was indeed hot enough to melt metal."

It is chemically impossable for jet fuel to burn hot enough to melt steel of that caliber.


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: barfightlard]
    #5642388 - 05/17/06 04:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You keep saying that.

You can talk in one hand and spit in the other, and see which gets full first.

Is jet fuel hot enough to burn?

Is an airplaine flying at full speed, at the time of impact, going to cause SOME damage to the support structure of the WTC, BEFORE it starts burning?

Were there OTHER combustable things inside the WTC that could burn or melt from Jet Fuel?

Could ANYTHING ELSE burning inside the WTC burn hot enough to melt steel?

Surely the science of steel is easy to research. How 'bout provding some Non-conspiracy links to your limited stack of evidence?

Oh, and answer the questions from my last post.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



Edited by Rose (05/18/06 04:14 PM)


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: barfightlard]
    #5642391 - 05/17/06 04:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"caliber"???????


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Rose]
    #5642416 - 05/17/06 04:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Any link I give to you that isn't official or from Popular Mechanics is automatically labelled conspiracy and automatically thought to be false.....


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: barfightlard]
    #5642457 - 05/17/06 04:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Dude, the science of steal is universal. The whole world agrees about its properties. You don't need conspiracy links to provide for us the science of steel. Everybody agrees about how steel works, and how fires burn.

Provide some solid info... provide some universal scientific links... please.

'Till you do, I'll take the word of Pattie, my steelworker buddy who actually cut the WTC steel... over your limited and faulty links.

And, answer my questions.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



Edited by Rose (05/19/06 04:09 PM)


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Rose]
    #5642491 - 05/17/06 04:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

cervantes--to ask why they would fly planes into the buildings instead of just demolishing the building could be the dumbest question I have heard on here. How bout an aliby for the buildings falling, how bout a spectacle for the country to watch? How bout a reason for our global empire to start.


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: barfightlard]
    #5642779 - 05/17/06 05:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

For the 50th time, the steel wouldn't have to melt, just be significantly weakened so that it could no longer bear the load it was under.


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: barfightlard]
    #5642904 - 05/17/06 05:52 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

> It is chemically impossable for jet fuel to burn hot enough to melt steel of that caliber.

Your statement, as presented, is false.  It is certainly possible for jet fuel to burn hot enough to melt steel.  The key word is "chemically".  Given sufficient oxygen, it is possible to melt steel with jet fuel.  To be accurate, one should state that at STP (standard temperature and pressure) it is impossible for jet fuel, freely burning in air, to melt steel.

> For the 50th time, the steel wouldn't have to melt, just be significantly weakened so that it could no longer bear the load it was under.

I don't disagree, but wrong debate.  :grin:  They are talking about the molten "steel" found during the removal of the rubble, not about the cause of collapse. (At least, I hope, otherwise my answer will make no sense...)


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Viveka]
    #5642911 - 05/17/06 05:53 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

EvilEye? said:
For the 50th time, the steel wouldn't have to melt, just be significantly weakened so that it could no longer bear the load it was under.




and burning jet fuel wouldnt have been takin into concideration when the towers were designed to take multiple jet airliner impacts?


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: barfightlard]
    #5643046 - 05/17/06 06:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

> and burning jet fuel wouldnt have been takin into concideration when the towers were designed to take multiple jet airliner impacts?

... actually, it was. The original tower designs were designed to withstand the impact of the planes of the era. Of course, planes have gotten a bit larger, faster, and certainly hold more fuel to extend their range (and speed). Engineering has also gotten much better; mistakes could have easily been made.


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: barfightlard]
    #5643107 - 05/17/06 06:42 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

and burning jet fuel wouldnt have been takin into concideration when the towers were designed to take multiple jet airliner impacts?



That really doesn't matter. First of all, what Seuss said. Secondly, were the buildings designed to withstand the impact of a jet clipping the building by accident, or the impact of a fully fueled passenger airliner flown directly into it at full speed? You don't know and neither do I. The engineers might have said "Well, we're supposed to make these towers airplane impact resistant but I'm not so certain that with our current schematics they could withstand a large airliner loaded with jet fuel being flown directly into them on purpose. Well, at least they'll most likely withstand an accidental clipping." But see what I'm doing? I'm speculating, therefore nothing I'm asserting has any real relevance in determining what actually occured. Speculation is all the designers would have had to go an as well. Even if the towers were designed to be resistant to an intentional hit like the one that occured, that doesn't necesarilly mean they were. It would be impossible to test the intentional jet liner impact resistance of a scyscraper, therefore the engineers would have to give it their best and hopefully never have to worry about wether their design was inadequate.


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Viveka]
    #5643260 - 05/17/06 07:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

> First of all, what Seuss said.

... actually, there was a mistake in what I said. The plane that the towers were designed to survive and the planes used were fairly close in specs. Engineers also make mistakes. Just because they designed the towers to survive an impact does not mean that the design was correct. Very good point.


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Seuss]
    #5643381 - 05/17/06 07:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Its official,
the 9/11 tragedy, will become just as infamous as the JFK assassination theories...........


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Seuss]
    #5643932 - 05/17/06 09:56 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> First of all, what Seuss said.

... actually, there was a mistake in what I said. The plane that the towers were designed to survive and the planes used were fairly close in specs. Engineers also make mistakes. Just because they designed the towers to survive an impact does not mean that the design was correct. Very good point.




Actually Seuss, you are close.

Each tower was constructed to withstand the IMPACT of a plane that size (and they DID), but not the ensuing fire.


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Fiddlesticks.



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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: barfightlard]
    #5643940 - 05/17/06 09:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Sorry, I'm really drunk and haven't read through the posts in this thread, just the title. What kind of termites were these?


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Skeptikos]
    #5645739 - 05/18/06 10:11 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

> What kind of termites were these?

Nano termites that eat metal instead of wood. (Just kidding).

Thermite, not termite. Thermite is a mixture of oxidized iron (rust) and aluminum. It is very difficult to ignite, but once it starts, it is very difficult to put out. The aluminum reduces the iron oxide creating aluminum oxide gas and molten iron. The reaction is very violent, spewing molten metals everywhere as large volumes of white aluminum oxide gas are released.


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5647394 - 05/18/06 07:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

David_vs_Goliath said:
How bout an aliby for the buildings falling, how bout a spectacle for the country to watch?




That makes no sense.

You don't need airplanes to add spectacle to watching the world's TWO tallest buildings collapse (something that had never happened before).

Plus the "Spectacle" of the airplaines gave tens of thousands of people time to escape.

Don't make no sense.


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Rose]
    #5648438 - 05/18/06 11:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

actualllly the buildings were not built that long ago. They were finished in 1970 and 1973 respectivly. The planes that crashed into the world trade center were built in the same "era" as you argued against. They were Boeing 767's which were being manufactured in the 70's. Get your facts straight before you try to bullshit us.


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5648696 - 05/19/06 12:43 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Uh...

I said nothing about when the buildings were built, nor did I mention when the airplanes were built. I never argued against any era. I have my facts straight... as far as I know.

And, sorry dude, but you didn't even get YOUR facts straight... while you demanded it of me.

Here's some free info.

The two jets used in the attack, UA 175 and AA 77, were Boeing 767-222's.

The Boeing 767-222 series flew its first commercial flight in 1982. So, if the airplanes used in the attack were the OLDEST 767-222 series EVER (which they weren't) they would've been built in the in the '80's... not the '70's like you claim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_767-222

But what do I know...?

If you are going to nitpick facts, get your reply button etiquette straight, and respond to the proper posts.

Welcome to The Shroomery.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



Edited by Rose (05/19/06 01:20 AM)


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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Phred]
    #5649183 - 05/19/06 05:52 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
If the best you can do is whine about being misunderstood, maybe it's time to concede defeat and move on.


Yeah, I guess that's what it's all about for you and Seuss and the like: "win" the thread no matter what. Maybe this kind of arguing can win you a court case, but this is no trial, it's an internet forum where everyone is left to judge for themselves on the base of their personal impressions of the thread. There's no jury calling "victory" of "defeat". So I don't care to "win" this at all, I guess everyone can make up their mind from what's been argued in this thread and others (and from the way different people choose to argue).

[I know, this signs my final defeat  :grin:]

:bye:


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