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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: exclusive58]
    #5604312 - 05/08/06 09:22 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

> Did you see the pics of the molten steel at ground zero?

I saw pictures of something molten. From the pictures, the molten substance could have easily been plastic as steel.

> Do you really think that a few hotspots on a few levels near elevators could melt so much steel and make the structures of the towers fail?

You are mixing two different things here... hotspots that can melt steel and the towers falling. I am certainly not qualified to make such a judgment. My background is explosives and geology/mining related, not civil engineering.

I am as certain as I can be that explosives were not used in the twin towers during 9/11. Although I doubt thermite was used, it is a much more plausable explaination than explosives. I can easily argue against explosives. I find it difficult to argue against thermite. This doesn't mean that I think thermite was the cause, only that thermite fits the evidence where explosives do not.

I can still come up with questions for the thermite crowd. If thermite were used, there would be a very hot fire somewhere in the building. This fire would need to burn for a while in order to bring the building down. Why is there no sign of fire anywhere other than where the plane crashed? The thermite would have had to been placed on or near the floors that the planes crashed into in order to remain hidden while it burned. One of many problems with the thermite theory... I suppose the thermite could have been in the planes... *shrug* As I said, much harder for me to argue against thermite.


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OfflineDarcho
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Seuss]
    #5605271 - 05/08/06 02:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> The flames in the WTC Twin Towers were diffuse flames.

The average was diffuse (and cool) which is why there was so much black smoke. However, this does not negate the possiblity of hot spots. Anywhere that air could have easily reached the fire, such as near the elevator shafts, would be a prime candidates for hot spots.




The average was? What other type of flame was there? It definitely was not a pre-mixed flame: the oxidizing agent and the fuel were not already mixed together; the oxidizing agent came from the air within the WTC Towers and the air external to the towers.


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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Seuss]
    #5605286 - 05/08/06 02:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I can still come up with questions for the thermite crowd. If thermite were used, there would be a very hot fire somewhere in the building. This fire would need to burn for a while in order to bring the building down. Why is there no sign of fire anywhere other than where the plane crashed? The thermite would have had to been placed on or near the floors that the planes crashed into in order to remain hidden while it burned. One of many problems with the thermite theory... I suppose the thermite could have been in the planes... *shrug* As I said, much harder for me to argue against thermite.





Actualy yes, the interviews with firefighters saying the ground floors and the lobby were destroyed. Pannels falling off walls, looked like an explosion happened in the lobby. Talk of people burning in the lobby, ect. What do you have to say about this


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Seuss]
    #5605955 - 05/08/06 05:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I saw pictures of something molten. From the pictures, the molten substance could have easily been plastic as steel.




LOL, I just watched that video and I would say it might be aluminum from the aircraft or another source. I can't figure out how you guys came to the conclusion that it is steel. The melting point of aluminum is right around the critical temperature where steel loses its strength but it is less than half the melting point of most steels.

That, combined with the fact that multiple people responsible admitted doing it and during the cartoon protests muslims were carrying around signs that said "we will make another 911 happen" pretty much seals the deal for me.

I am not sure what there is to gain by trying to convince people that the US is really the bad guy responsible for 911. That muslims really like Americans and they would never do such a thing even while they routinely kill civilians. It just seems kind of...absurd.


Edited by Catalysis (05/08/06 06:12 PM)


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Offlineguri
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5606468 - 05/08/06 08:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

people where in flames in the lobby because burning fuel fell down the elevator shaft then spilled into the lobby. there is a video called 9/11 by two french film makers (jules and gideon naudet)who happened to be following around firefighters that day, one of them walked into the lobby minutes after the first plane hit and saw people running around in flames because of the fuel.


--------------------
"If you don't believe drugs have done good things for us, then go home and burn all your records, all your tapes, and all your CDs because every one of those artists who have made brilliant music and enhanced your lives? The Beatles were so fucking high, they let Ringo sing a few songs." --Bill Hicks


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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: guri]
    #5606641 - 05/08/06 09:13 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Roger that


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."


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Offlined33p
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: barfightlard]
    #5606643 - 05/08/06 09:13 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Molten steel is the biggest damn red herring for all these CT nuts. If thermite caused the pools, where are the enormous deposits of Fe and Al2O3? The amount of thermite needed to create pools that big(and they were fucking big) would be astronomical. There is no way no one would have noticed this.

You can claim that thermite was used to cut a few supports and start the collapse(which is retarded for numerous reasons) but for the love of god don't think that thermite created those big pools. Why would they have used so much thermite when only a few supports needed to be cut to bring it down? Where was the incredibly bright light that would have been produced while the thermite reaction was taking place? Where did all of the Fe and Al2O3 go? How did they know where to place the thermite? There are many other questions that have slipped my mind just now as well.


Oh yea and exclusive you can kid yourself all day long because this topic has been discussed here ad nauseum and you still play(im starting doubt that its playing) dumb.

Steel did not need to melt for the towers to collapse! Get it through your fucking head.

My guess is that the energy of the collapsing tower was primarily transfered into the core's beams as they twisted during the collapse. The transfer of energy was so great that they were superheated and became molten slag.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

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Offlined33p
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: barfightlard]
    #5606687 - 05/08/06 09:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bellylard said:
Prove to me that jet fuel with the addition of basically wood and plastic could have got hot enough to turn steel into molten. It would have been easier to hide Thermite inside the WTC rather than get a large enough amount into some planes.




Ha! Prove to you? Prove to the guy that believes some ludicrous thing about 9/11 with absolutely nothing other than doubt of the validity of the official story? Well, i shouldn't but i'll try.

Take a small piece of steel about the thickness of a match stick and 6 inches long. Twist it over and over. Does it get hot? Well, I'll spoil the surprise, it does get hot. Now think on a bigger scale.


The fires in the tower only needed to weaken the steel supports until enough weight was being spread among the remaining supports that weren't damaged or completely removed by the initial crash. At this point either the floor brackets(my belief) or the outer support columns would have failed beginning a domino effect.


--------------------
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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: MrMolotov]
    #5606797 - 05/08/06 10:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MrMolotov said:
the terrorists didnt have any thermite. it would have been from the massive fires caused by the jetfuel the jetfuel got things really really hot and the added burning of office supplies,chaiirs and such would have done it how would they have gotten enough thermite into the plane withour being discovered.





that theory is about as believable as the thermite.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #5607604 - 05/09/06 05:00 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Alright... I will argue the opposite for a while. I honestly do not believe that thermite was there, but I will try:

Quote:

If thermite caused the pools, where are the enormous deposits of Fe and Al2O3? The amount of thermite needed to create pools that big(and they were fucking big) would be astronomical. There is no way no one would have noticed this.




The pools would be iron for the most part.  The aluminum oxide vaporizes into gas as the thermite burns.  Packed into 55 gallon drums, a lot of thermite could be placed fairly easily.

Quote:

You can claim that thermite was used to cut a few supports and start the collapse(which is retarded for numerous reasons) but for the love of god don't think that thermite created those big pools.

Why would they have used so much thermite when only a few supports needed to be cut to bring it down?




I would never claim that thermite was used to cut supports.  I would claim that thermite could be used to create a fire so hot that it could not be extinguished where placed.  I would also claim that the fire would eventually cause the building to fail.  The failure would occur because of gross structural failure, not because a few supports were cut.  The volume of thermite used would be required to generate the intense heat needed to cause a large failure.

Quote:

Where was the incredibly bright light that would have been produced while the thermite reaction was taking place? Where did all of the Fe and Al2O3 go? How did they know where to place the thermite? There are many other questions that have slipped my mind just now as well.




I have burned a lot of thermite in my youth.  Thermite is not bright when it burns... at least, not like magnesium bright.  It gives off huge volumes of smoke and lots of burning sparks are sprayed out from the fairly violent reaction.

The iron would be located in the rubble.  I assume this is the "large pools of molten steel" that they found.  The aluminum, as it oxidizes, turns into a gas.  There are usually splatter marks from molten aluminum or iron around the reaction, but this could easily be hidden by the fallen building rubble.

They would have had to place the thermite around the same location as the planes crashed in order to hide it.  This one I can't answer... :grin:  One idea I came up with is that thermite was in the planes instead of luggage/people.  (*sigh* I know, I know...)

I suppose the reason that the thermite theory is so much harder to discredit is because the end result of thermite is very much like the end result of burning jet fuel.


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Invisible013akilper

Registered: 08/20/04
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: barfightlard]
    #5608246 - 05/09/06 10:52 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

some people are fucking idiots


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Offlinequillini
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: 013akilper]
    #5608527 - 05/09/06 12:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

013akilper said:
some people are fucking idiots




Only those who don't ask questions.

To all of you who want to call names, lookey here. Some people, unlike yourselves, are not satisfied with the official account of what happened on 9/11. There are holes. This is not to argue a conspiracy per se, although even the official account requires you to believe a conspiracy. Al Qaida = conspiracy, folks. There is no lone gunman theory here.

No one is saying the US is the "bad guy" or whatever. This isn't about good and evil, I don't give a fuck what GWB says about it. This is about a complex series of events that caused other events, and as these events unfold, it's important to ask questions about what's going on instead of taking some story and believing it without question. That is truly foolish.

Just because some angry muslims run their mouth does not mean the entire muslim world had something to do with 9/11. That doesn't even make sense. Did you know there was a candlelight vigil in Teheran on 9/12? Doesn't sound too celebratory to me. And when exactly did OBL confess to 9/11? The guy in the tape the FBI put out looks and acts nothing like him, and OBL has actually denied any connection to the attacks. I'm not saying he's crying himself to sleep over them or anything, but how much actual evidence does the government have as to his involvement?

You can answer any way you like, but the fact is you do not know. No one does. Our government has kept important things like this secret. Why? I have no idea, but them's the facts. That's what smells rotten here, above anything else. Why don't our leaders just tell us what they know, so we can move on? There are a ton of things that need to be explained, that's all I'm saying.

I don't think that makes me a nut.


--------------------
No; truth, being alive, was not halfway between anything. It was only to be found by continuous excursions into either realm, and though proportion is the final secret, to espouse it at the outset is to insure sterility.

Only connect...


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Offlinequillini
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Seuss]
    #5608593 - 05/09/06 12:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Seuss, what's your explanation of what appear to be explosions coming from the sides of the towers as they fell?

As on Tower 7:
http://www.plaguepuppy.net/public_html/video%20archive/squibview.7.qt

There is similar phenomena during the collapse of the other two towers. If it's not explosives, what is it?


--------------------
No; truth, being alive, was not halfway between anything. It was only to be found by continuous excursions into either realm, and though proportion is the final secret, to espouse it at the outset is to insure sterility.

Only connect...


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OfflineViveka
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: quillini]
    #5608934 - 05/09/06 02:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Displacement. If you squeeze a paper bag full of air, does the air inside go somewhere or does it just disappear?

When a building collapses on itself, the part of the building that is falling onto the empty space below begins to occupy that once empty space. You have air inside that has to go somewhere being ejected out of any avaliable port, ie: windows, along with dust, debris and smoke. This is a very basic concept and if you aren't grasping this almost immediately in your analysis of what happened to the WTC, I would suggest that something is limiting your ability to analyze the issue impartially.

If you want to believe the WTC was taken down with explosives by a shadow U.S. agency or whatever you will see controlled demolition explosions instead of displaced air ejecta, even though the latter explanation is far more rational. You have placed a filter over your perception because you harbor attachment to whatever reality tunnel you find the most intriguing, as grossly illogical as it may be.



Edited by EvilEye? (05/09/06 02:23 PM)


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OfflineAldous
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Viveka]
    #5609222 - 05/09/06 03:30 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

This may or may not explain the squibs that are visible after the Twin Towers had started to collapse.

But it seems you didn't follow the link above. The squibs on WTC7 move UPwards, not down. They move upwards extremely fast, much faster even than the evolution of the collapse. And, get this, those squibs appear BEFORE the building has even started to fall down.

"Displacement"??  :confused:  :rolleyes:
Think again.

And also, watch the link now, and compare it to controlled demolition footage, where you see squibs moving extremely fast throughout the surface of the building at the exact moment it STARTS its fall, but has not really moved yet. Does this remind you of something you've just seen?


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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Aldous]
    #5609320 - 05/09/06 03:53 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

how can you say displacement when the floors that show the debris shooting out of the windows are 10-15 floors below the subsequent floors which were being collapsed at the same time.


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5609789 - 05/09/06 06:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)



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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Luddite]
    #5609823 - 05/09/06 06:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

> what's your explanation of what appear to be explosions coming from the sides of the towers as they fell?

It looks to be debris spit out as the building starts to collapse. It is hard to tell, because the video starts halfway through the event, but it appears that the building is well under its way down before the clouds start.

The video is poor quality, but I did not see any sort of flash that would be associated with an explosive. Not a fireball, but a flash, in fireball colors.

The spacing is also not even. A floor or two are skipped.

The placement makes no sense for explosives, at least from a demolition standpoint.


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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: Seuss]
    #5609849 - 05/09/06 06:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

OK luddite, I am going to put it all aside (all the physics that is). Even though I still doubt the plane caused the collapse, I am goin to ask you, Why all the political stuff going on right before? and why SOOOO much coincidence with the people involved?

AKA
New American Nation
Pilot of one of the planes working for the CIA 1 year earlier
New American Nation calling for a "Pearl Harbor like attack" to redifine our nations defence policy?
Harboring Osama Bin Laden on the day before the attack?
CIA Agents meeting with OBL in the years leading up to the attack while he was a well known terrorist?
The United States planning an attack on Afghanistan AND Iraq on the day of 9/11?

Curious


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Thermite Caused the WTC to Fall? [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5609987 - 05/09/06 07:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

David_vs_Goliath said:
New American Nation calling for a "Pearl Harbor like attack" to redifine our nations defence policy?




I have repeatedly corrected people who make this claim. That paper never called for a "new Pearl Harbor". It merely recognized that a new Pearl Harbor could bring about a climate in which certain things could or would happen. Big difference.


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