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Phred
Fred's son


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Chavez... gotta love the guy
#5599495 - 05/06/06 11:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hugo Chavez wants to be declared El Presidente for the next twenty-five years.
Quote:
CARACAS, Venezuela - President Hugo Chavez said Saturday that Venezuelan voters should have the chance to decide whether he should govern the country for the next 25 years.
Speaking at a stadium packed with supporters in central Lara state, Chavez said he would hold a referendum to put the question of his remaining in office to Venezuelans if the opposition pulls out of upcoming presidential elections.
“I am going to ask you, all the people, if you agree with Chavez being president until 2031,” he said.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060507/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_referendum_1
Phred
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Phred]
#5599531 - 05/07/06 12:01 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hooray for Democracy!
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MagillaGorilla
Cosmic Ape


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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Phred]
#5600060 - 05/07/06 02:59 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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And what is wrong with this; if he's doing a good job and the people of Venezuela want him to kick around, why not?
At least he's giving them the option
Quote:
I am going to ask you, all the people, if you agree with Chavez being president until 2031
Quote:
I would call a national referendum to have the people decide if I can continue here indefinitely or if I have to go after six years
That he is even considering putting this to a vote shows he has a massive amount of support from the people. This is Democracy in action - he is giving the Venezuelans a rather large say in the way their government is going to be functioning for the next 30 years.
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gregorio
Too Damn Old


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Or it could mean that he has the means to rig an election.
Either way, it seems like he wants to be Dictator for life.
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kotik
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: gregorio]
#5600281 - 05/07/06 07:04 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I prefer King of Bhutan.
in 1998 he gave up absolute power, and in 2005 he sent every house a new draft constitution that allowed for his impeachment.
Quote:
If most politicians are inherently suspect because they seem so eager to grab power and so reluctant to surrender it, what does one make of a leader who voluntarily gives up his position, as if placing his people's need before his own?
(newest time magazine)
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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DoctorJ


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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Phred]
#5600426 - 05/07/06 08:57 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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nothing wrong with a benevolent, well-intentioned dictator.
unfortunately, I do not know chavez well enough to call him as such.
but if his actions are wise and his intentions good, what harm can come from it?
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Gijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Phred]
#5601929 - 05/07/06 05:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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His Castro obsession is totally out of hand. Hopefully, the people of Venezuela can see through this and make the right choice.
-------------------- what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?
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Alex213
Stranger
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Gijith]
#5603936 - 05/08/06 03:24 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hopefully, the people of Venezuela can see through this and make the right choice
I have no doubt the people of Venezuela will make the right choice.
He's tackling poverty and corruption, he's the first ever indigenous Bolivian president - and then there's that jumper. No wonder they adore him at home
Morales has put Bolivia on the map. His inauguration two weeks ago has electrified Latin American politics; he is, after all, the first indigenous Bolivian - an Aymara - to hold the highest office in the land. Morales has promised to channel more of the proceeds of Bolivia's vast oil and gas reserves to his poorest people, the poorest in all South America. And he has already taken significant steps to eradicate discrimination and exploitation.
Foreign diplomats in the capital, La Paz, admit he is that rarest of things - an honest, incorruptible politician with an urgent desire to improve the lot of his people.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1705476,00.html
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gregorio
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Alex213]
#5603974 - 05/08/06 03:50 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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He feels their love so much that explains why he is scared to put his power up to a vote on a regular basis.
Beware.
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Alex213
Stranger
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: gregorio]
#5603980 - 05/08/06 03:59 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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The last count I heard was he'd won 8 elections, referendums and plebicites in 6 years.
It looks like the people have finally seen through the free market capitalist bullshit and want change.
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gregorio
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Alex213]
#5603990 - 05/08/06 04:20 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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What change?
To never be able to vote again, because that is what Chavez is pushing for.
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Alex213
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: gregorio]
#5604013 - 05/08/06 04:45 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Bear in mind he's asking people to vote on this. If they don't want it, they don't vote for it and it doesn't happen.
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gregorio
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Alex213]
#5604043 - 05/08/06 05:14 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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25 years is a very long time.
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Alex213
Stranger
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: gregorio]
#5604154 - 05/08/06 07:41 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Perhaps after decades of right-wing corruption and rich corporations taking fortunes out of the country the people don't see 25 years as such a long time. We'll have to see how they vote.
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: gregorio]
#5604249 - 05/08/06 08:41 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
gregorio said: What change?
To never be able to vote again, because that is what Chavez is pushing for.
It's OK to bend the rules if you are doing it for the worker. (Chavez loves his people and will take care of them)
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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Alex213
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: lonestar2004]
#5604259 - 05/08/06 08:46 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Chavez loves his people and will take care of them
Looks like it.
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Alex213]
#5604275 - 05/08/06 08:58 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Viva la revolucion!
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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kotik
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: lonestar2004]
#5604371 - 05/08/06 09:46 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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i wonder what Che would say about his face being all over posters t-shirts and pop culture.
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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gluke bastid
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: kotik]
#5604400 - 05/08/06 10:03 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
kotik said: i wonder what Che would say about his face being all over posters t-shirts and pop culture.
"When the fuck do I get payed for all these t-shirts?!!?"
--------------------
Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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gluke bastid
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: lonestar2004]
#5604407 - 05/08/06 10:05 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
lonestar2004 said: It's OK to bend the rules if you are doing it for the worker.
Is he bending the rules? Does Venezuala have a constitution that states democratically elected leaders only serve for a certain term?
I agree that I wouldn't stand for such an action here, that is a lot of power for one man to have. But if the people of Venezuala are down than thats democracy. Gotta love it or leave it.
--------------------
Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: gluke bastid]
#5604958 - 05/08/06 12:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
gluke bastid said:
Quote:
lonestar2004 said: It's OK to bend the rules if you are doing it for the worker.
Is he bending the rules? Does Venezuala have a constitution that states democratically elected leaders only serve for a certain term?
I agree that I wouldn't stand for such an action here, that is a lot of power for one man to have. But if the people of Venezuala are down than thats democracy. Gotta love it or leave it.
Chavez's "constitution" is a fucking joke... instituted by Chavez himself in December 1999, a year after he was elected, to extend his hold on power. Chavez supporters, who controlled the National Assembly, rammed the document through the legislature. It was later approved in a national referendum in which over half of the electorate stayed away from the polls.
The new "constitution" dissolved the senate, extended the president's term from five to six years, gave greater power to the military, tightened state control over the oil industry, and limited the central bank's autonomy.
The Venezuelan Constitution allows a president to be re-elected only once in immediate succession. Chavez is eligible for re-election to another six-year term in December, but if he wins he wouldn't be able to run again in 2012.
"I am going to call a referendum," Chavez said. "I am going to ask you, all the people, if you agree with Chavez being president until 2031."
The commies, liberals, and media love this guy!
I wish President Bush would do this, over half the people of America would be down with it. and than thats democracy.....right....
Gotta love it or leave it.......
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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Alex213
Stranger
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: lonestar2004]
#5605207 - 05/08/06 02:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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tightened state control over the oil industry
Yeah, perish the thought that the people of Venezuela might actually see some of the benefits of the oil money as opposed to rich foreign corporations.
The commies, liberals, and media love this guy!
So do the people of Venezuela.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Alex213]
#5605223 - 05/08/06 02:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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This is definitely a bad step for Venezuela. I personally don't think Chavez is so bad right now(though I think his divisive rhetoric is rather counterproductive), but extending his term in office for so long is sure to corrupt him immensely.
--------------------
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Alex213]
#5605246 - 05/08/06 02:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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If he is such a great guy and a benevolent leader....why does he want to lock himself into power for the next 30 years?
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Alex213]
#5605254 - 05/08/06 02:50 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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alex123 said: "the people of Venezuela love chavez"........
Democracy at risk
Venezuela's ChÁvez is shackling the press
April 5, 2006
Press in peril:
Venezuela's President Hugo Chávez and his leftist “Bolivarian Revolution” are throttling that oil-rich country's free press. Half a dozen Latin countries have turned moderately left in recent years but only Venezuela, so far, is moving to silence press criticism and stifle dissent.
Chávez, a crude populist and ex-army officer, sees his critics among Venezuela's newspapers and broadcast networks as bourgeois reactionaries out to sabotage his self-styled revolution. Much of the Venezuelan press sees itself as fighting a desperate battle to preserve the country's democratic institutions against a strong-armed president whose political hero is Fidel Castro.
At first, Chávez used demagoguery and denunciation against the press. Then he resorted to direct action, inciting street mobs to attack journalists and their press organizations. Chávez's incitement has prompted a series of assaults in which journalists have been beaten or threatened.
Now, Chávez and his government are moving systematically to undercut press freedoms and silence press criticism of his lurch leftward. A Venezuelan congress and judiciary effectively controlled by Chávez are enacting laws and regulations that criminalize dissent. “Social responsibility” laws are being used to impose de facto censorship on radio and television news and commentary. A tangle of new arbitrary laws, decrees, regulations and rules is being put in place to stifle press criticism and give Chávez and his revolution an ever freer ride in the media.
While Chávez's critics in the press are hounded and harassed, Chávez gets an average of 40 broadcast hours a week, unchallenged by critics, to harangue Venezuelans.
The new laws and regulations plus higher taxes and punitive fines amount to a neo-totalitarian infrastructure for muzzling Venezuela's once-vibrant press. In an ominous portent, the 100-year-old El Impulso newspaper of Barquisimeto, Venezuela, was arbitrarily closed and prevented from publishing by government tax collectors for a day last October.
Chávez's campaign to muzzle Venezuela's press is provoking strenuous protests from outraged Venezuelan journalists, publishers and broadcasters, plus an international who's who of press-freedom defenders: the Inter American Press Association, Reporters Without Borders, Human Rights Watch, the Institute for Defense of Journalists and the International Association of Radio Broadcasters. In addition, the Organization of American States' Inter-American Commission on Human Rights has signaled its disapproval.
More must be done, by human rights groups and democratic nations in the Western Hemisphere especially, if Chávez is to be deterred from even worse transgressions against the rights of all Venezuelans to a free press. If press freedoms in Venezuela are completely extinguished, what's left of Venezuela's democracy won't be far behind. http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060405/news_lz1ed5bottom.html
I wonder why they love him so much
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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DoctorJ


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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5605311 - 05/08/06 03:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said: If he is such a great guy and a benevolent leader....why does he want to lock himself into power for the next 30 years?
perhaps he does not have faith in the intelligence of his people
perhaps he is worried they may elect a leader that would be worse than himself
perhaps.
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero


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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: DoctorJ]
#5605411 - 05/08/06 03:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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heh, he actually reminds me more of Bush than Che.
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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Alex213
Stranger
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5605444 - 05/08/06 03:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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If he is such a great guy and a benevolent leader....why does he want to lock himself into power for the next 30 years?
Well, lets get the facts straight first. As usual Phred completly misrepresented the reality of the situation. What Chavez said was:
[b]"I would consider signing a decree to hold a referendum asking `Do you agree Chavez should be allowed to seek a new term in 2013?' and let's let the people decide, Maybe I won't be leaving the presidency in 2013, but in 2019, and then six more years would be 2025; six more would be 2031"
That means every 6 years he'll hold elections. And if he keeps winning the elections every 6 years then he could be in power until 2031. Nothing to do with being a dictator.
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Alex213
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: DoctorJ]
#5605477 - 05/08/06 03:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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perhaps he is worried they may elect a leader that would be worse than himself
He'll be holding elections every 6 years. The people can elect whoever they like.
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Alex213
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: gregorio]
#5605487 - 05/08/06 03:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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He feels their love so much that explains why he is scared to put his power up to a vote on a regular basis.
As I've pointed out he'll be putting himself to the vote every 6 years just the same as now.
Phred sure managed to mislead a lot of you with this thread.
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Alex213]
#5605491 - 05/08/06 03:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Could we have a source for that quote from Chavez, Alex213? Because it is not a quote from the article I linked.
If anyone is "misrepresenting" what Chavez said, it was the AP staff writer who submitted the article.
Phred
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero


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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Phred]
#5605531 - 05/08/06 04:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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this is truly a war on information.
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Phred]
#5605688 - 05/08/06 04:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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The statement Alex213 provided was from February 19 of this year, made during Chavez's weekly radio broadcast. The broadcast on Feb 19 was six hours long. I don't know if they are all as long as that. It was the same broadcast where he warned US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice not to "mess with me, girl!"
Either the AP writer of the article Yahoo ran missed part of his May 6 stadium speech or in the stadium speech Chavez neglected to mention the part about being re-elected over and over.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4731742.stm
Phred
--------------------
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EquilibriuM
dream stalker

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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Phred]
#5605865 - 05/08/06 05:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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If I was paying 12 cents a gallon for gas, I would vote for him too!
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Phred]
#5605874 - 05/08/06 05:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said: The broadcast on Feb 19 was six hours long.
Weird. Why do these Latin American Leftist leaders like to talk for hours upon hours? It was common for Castro to talk for hours at rallies (I guess he doesn't do it anymore because of his failing health).
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero


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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5606244 - 05/08/06 07:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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well when you have more to say than "no comment" then its only natural. And anything worth being said, is worth being explained in detail. I think its funny our politicians throw buzz words out for an hour or two and ride.
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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d33p
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Alex213]
#5607158 - 05/09/06 12:04 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said: Bear in mind he's asking people to vote on this. If they don't want it, they don't vote for it and it doesn't happen.
My god, you're such a hypocrite.
And nice job on that quote. Made me laugh
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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Alex213
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Phred]
#5607336 - 05/09/06 01:42 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Either the AP writer of the article Yahoo ran missed part of his May 6 stadium speech or in the stadium speech Chavez neglected to mention the part about being re-elected over and over.
I thought you'd assured us that AP was run by a bunch of leftists? How come they're running misleading stories about Chavez?
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Alex213
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: d33p]
#5607339 - 05/09/06 01:43 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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My god, you're such a hypocrite.
And nice job on that quote. Made me laugh
Come again?
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Alex213]
#5607714 - 05/09/06 07:14 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
How come they're running misleading stories about Chavez?
Maybe the story is not misleading at all. Maybe his words were reported correctly by the AP writer. It is entirely possible that Chavez in his most recent speech said nothing about being re-elected multiple times in order to rule till 2031.
Phred
--------------------
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gluke bastid
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: lonestar2004]
#5608162 - 05/09/06 10:31 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
lonestar2004 said:
I wish President Bush would do this, over half the people of America would be down with it. and than thats democracy.....right....
Gotta love it or leave it.......
I disagree with your speculation. I don't think more than half the population would "be down with it", nor would half the voting the population.
And yes it would be democracy. Anything that the majority of people vote for is democracy in action. Again. Love it or leave it.
--------------------
Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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bukkake


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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: gluke bastid]
#5609574 - 05/09/06 05:20 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Don't bother debating the guy who supported Pinochet's rule.
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: bukkake]
#5610797 - 05/09/06 10:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
bukkake said: Don't bother debating the guy who supported Pinochet's rule.
HELL YEA!!!! FUCK DEBATING....
And BTW Pinochet was not all that bad. His main crime was getting the communists out of Chile and delivering them a self-government. That's why the world and the liberal pussies hate him.
In their minds, he is the same category as Nixon, McCarthy, Hoover, and Reagan, all communist fighters.
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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Silversoul
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: lonestar2004]
#5611089 - 05/09/06 11:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
lonestar said: And BTW Pinochet was not all that bad. His main crime was getting the communists out of Chile and delivering them a self-government. That's why the world and the liberal pussies hate him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet#Suppression_of_opposition
Quote:
After the military's seizure of power, Pinochet engaged in brutal political repression, aiming to destroy all remaining support for the defeated Popular Unity (PU) government. In October 1973, at least 70 people were killed by the Caravan of Death. Almost immediately, the junta banned all the leftist parties that had constituted Allende's UP coalition. Much of the regime's violence was directed toward those it viewed as socialist or Marxist sympathizers, though dissidents who spoke out against the government were also persecuted. Those murdered during Pinochet's 17 years in power are said to have "been disappeared." It is not known exactly how many people were killed by government and military forces during the 17 years that he was in power, but the Rettig Commission listed 2,095 deaths and 1,102 "disappearances.", with the vast majority of victims coming from the opposition to Pinochet at the hands of the state security apparatus. Torture was also commonly used against dissidents. Thousands of Chileans were expelled from and fled the country to escape the regime. In 2004, the National Commission on Political Prisoners and Torture produced the Valech Report after interviewing an estimated 35,000 people who claimed to have been abused by the regime. About 28,000 of those testimonies were regarded as legitimate. According to the Commission, more than half of the arrests occurred in the months immediately following the coup (approximately 18,000 of those testifying claimed they were detained between September and December of 1973).
Pinochet's rule was frequently made unstable by protests and isolated violent attacks. Isolated attacks by armed groups opposed to the regime increased government paranoia allowed the dictatorship to justify what they termed the "cycle" of oppression.
In contrast to most other nations in Latin America, prior to the coup Chile had a long tradition of democratic civilian rule; military intervention in politics had been rare. Some political scientists have ascribed the bloodiness of the coup to the stability of the existing democratic system, which required extreme action to overturn.
The situation in Chile came to international attention in September 1976, when Orlando Letelier, a former Chilean ambassador to the United States and minister in Allende's cabinet, was assassinated by a car bomb in Washington, D.C.. General Carlos Prats, Pinochet's predecessor and army commander under Allende, who had resigned rather than support the moves against the democratic system, was assassinated under similar circumstances in Buenos Aires, Argentina, two years earlier.
How do you create self-government when so many of the "selves" mysteriously disappear?
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Redstorm
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: lonestar2004]
#5612196 - 05/10/06 10:59 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I would say he did a few things worse than kicking the communists out.
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MAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)


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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: lonestar2004]
#5612241 - 05/10/06 11:15 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
I wonder why they love him so much
Maybe because the press doesn't feed people real food, and believe me, i lived in Venezuela for 6 years in the 80's when i was a kid, and i saw many poverty and hungry people over there. Me and my parents came back to Europe because middle class was steadily disappearing. Many of my Venezuelan friends had to go through some hard times, but most of them now have a feeling of hope which they never had before.
Let's face it, before Chavez, Venezuelan regime was a corrupt one , controlled mostly by foreign interests. It was very similar to those south-american regimes controlled by the US and its geopolitical communist phobia, which precipitated right wing coup d'etat in countries like Chile, Argentina and financed the destruction of many central american countries and their regimes.
Anyway, i guess people are more interested on having dignity in their lives and food on their tables first, than caring for freedom of "some" press. I guess both are of great importance, but we all know that even the media is affected by politics. Right wing controlled that country for many years and i believe part of their media is still struggling to revert things as they were before. Damn their mind control, give freedom to the people, they want it first!
MAIA
-------------------- Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala
 Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy. Voltaire
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gluke bastid
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: lonestar2004]
#5612326 - 05/10/06 11:45 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
lonestar2004 said:
Democracy at risk
Venezuela's ChÁvez is shackling the press
April 5, 2006
Press in peril:
Venezuela's President Hugo Chávez and his leftist “Bolivarian Revolution” are throttling that oil-rich country's free press. Half a dozen Latin countries have turned moderately left in recent years but only Venezuela, so far, is moving to silence press criticism and stifle dissent.
Chávez, a crude populist and ex-army officer, sees his critics among Venezuela's newspapers and broadcast networks as bourgeois reactionaries out to sabotage his self-styled revolution. Much of the Venezuelan press sees itself as fighting a desperate battle to preserve the country's democratic institutions against a strong-armed president whose political hero is Fidel Castro.
At first, Chávez used demagoguery and denunciation against the press. Then he resorted to direct action, inciting street mobs to attack journalists and their press organizations. Chávez's incitement has prompted a series of assaults in which journalists have been beaten or threatened.
Now, Chávez and his government are moving systematically to undercut press freedoms and silence press criticism of his lurch leftward. A Venezuelan congress and judiciary effectively controlled by Chávez are enacting laws and regulations that criminalize dissent. “Social responsibility” laws are being used to impose de facto censorship on radio and television news and commentary. A tangle of new arbitrary laws, decrees, regulations and rules is being put in place to stifle press criticism and give Chávez and his revolution an ever freer ride in the media.
While Chávez's critics in the press are hounded and harassed, Chávez gets an average of 40 broadcast hours a week, unchallenged by critics, to harangue Venezuelans.
The new laws and regulations plus higher taxes and punitive fines amount to a neo-totalitarian infrastructure for muzzling Venezuela's once-vibrant press. In an ominous portent, the 100-year-old El Impulso newspaper of Barquisimeto, Venezuela, was arbitrarily closed and prevented from publishing by government tax collectors for a day last October.
Chávez's campaign to muzzle Venezuela's press is provoking strenuous protests from outraged Venezuelan journalists, publishers and broadcasters, plus an international who's who of press-freedom defenders: the Inter American Press Association, Reporters Without Borders, Human Rights Watch, the Institute for Defense of Journalists and the International Association of Radio Broadcasters. In addition, the Organization of American States' Inter-American Commission on Human Rights has signaled its disapproval.
More must be done, by human rights groups and democratic nations in the Western Hemisphere especially, if Chávez is to be deterred from even worse transgressions against the rights of all Venezuelans to a free press. If press freedoms in Venezuela are completely extinguished, what's left of Venezuela's democracy won't be far behind.
Sounds a lot like Pinochet to me!
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: d33p]
#5613058 - 05/10/06 02:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
d33p said:
Quote:
Alex213 said: Bear in mind he's asking people to vote on this. If they don't want it, they don't vote for it and it doesn't happen.
My god, you're such a hypocrite.
And nice job on that quote. Made me laugh
How is Al being hypocritical?
If you're going to accuse somebody of something in here you kind of need to back it up, otherwise it's just like flaming.
If you can back it up then you're making a potentially legitimate challenge to their ideology. No problems there.
-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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bukkake


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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#5614024 - 05/10/06 06:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
And BTW Pinochet was not all that bad. His main crime was getting the communists out of Chile and delivering them a self-government. That's why the world and the liberal pussies hate him.
In their minds, he is the same category as Nixon, McCarthy, Hoover, and Reagan, all communist fighters.
Hahaha.
Of course not. Pinochet was only a mass murderer. But "liberals" hate him for other reasons. Pinochet was GLORIOUS.
Nixon was also a compulsive liar and a crook, McCarthy an irrational homosexual, Hoover an equally irrational homosexual crossdresser, and Reagan a blatant capitalist moron. The latter being an outright idiot and buffoon.
But, okay. The liberals are the unaligned sort if you say so.
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Silversoul
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: bukkake]
#5614062 - 05/10/06 06:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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What's your problem with homosexuals?
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Silversoul]
#5614070 - 05/10/06 06:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said: What's your problem with homosexuals?
They are too festive. Also, they are usually much better looking than I am.
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bukkake


Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Silversoul]
#5614090 - 05/10/06 06:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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What Randal said. Too colorful and joyous for my liking.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: bukkake]
#5614120 - 05/10/06 06:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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J. Edgar Hoover was colorful and joyous? Sure coulda fooled me.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Silversoul]
#5614142 - 05/10/06 06:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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That man was the epitomy of sex appeal and you know it.
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#5615230 - 05/10/06 10:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Baby_Hitler said: How is Al being hypocritical?
If you're going to accuse somebody of something in here you kind of need to back it up, otherwise it's just like flaming.
If you can back it up then you're making a potentially legitimate challenge to their ideology. No problems there.
In this thread Alex's posts have alluded to "his belief" in the efficacy of democracy in properly representing the will of the people of Venezula. I feel this is in direct contrast to sentiment he has expressed throughout the previous years posting here concerning the nature of democracy and democratic governments. I believe this hypocrasy is resultant of the situation in question in which what he supports appears as though it will win.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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Alex213
Stranger
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: d33p]
#5616113 - 05/11/06 02:07 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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In this thread Alex's posts have alluded to "his belief" in the efficacy of democracy in properly representing the will of the people of Venezula
Nothing to do with any "belief" of mine. Chavez is winning the elections. Whether he's representing the people or not is something for them to say.
I feel this is in direct contrast to sentiment he has expressed throughout the previous years posting here concerning the nature of democracy and democratic governments
Example?
I believe this hypocrasy is resultant of the situation in question in which what he supports appears as though it will win.
Are you trying to say I'm against democracy?
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Aldous
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: gluke bastid]
#5616258 - 05/11/06 03:23 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Now, Chávez and his government are moving systematically to undercut press freedoms and silence press criticism of his lurch leftward. A Venezuelan congress and judiciary effectively controlled by Chávez are enacting laws and regulations that criminalize dissent. “Social responsibility” laws are being used to impose de facto censorship on radio and television news and commentary. A tangle of new arbitrary laws, decrees, regulations and rules is being put in place to stifle press criticism and give Chávez and his revolution an ever freer ride in the media.
Wow, those lies are so blatant...
In fact, the corporate media loudly cheered at the illegal coup in April 2002. They are owned by the social category who staged the coup. Despite the provocation, there has never been any censorship whatsoever, and never was a single journalist jailed. The freedom of the press in Venezuela is absolute, there's even freedom of false allegation and anti-government propaganda. No problem with that, except liars can be brought to trial for defamation, which is another trait of a true democracy.
Also, Chavez strongly encouraged the emergence of community media, which are open for anyone to participate in. It's media by the people for the people. He also funded a new people's national TV channel, which is entirely free to criticize the government and doesn't hesitate to do just that, but not in a propagandist and defamatory kind of way like the corporate media do. I personally know one of the managers there, and he says their freedom is complete.
The press is much freer in Venezuela than in most Western-backed countries in the region. If you dispute that, back it up with facts (numbers of media outlets closed, numbers of journalists assaulted, killed or jailed, instances of censorship, etc.).
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Aldous]
#5616762 - 05/11/06 11:22 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Sorry, but that's bullshit. I saw a special about Chavez on the Discovery Times channel. Now, you can complain all you want about whatever bias they might have, but I saw with my own two eyes the kind of censorship being done under Chavez. It may not be as bad as some other authoritarian regimes, but they have anything but a free press.
And btw, before you get all high and mighty about the "illegal coup" in 2002, it should be noted that before Chavez got elected, he tried unsuccessfully to stage a military coup in 1992.
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Aldous
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Silversoul]
#5617514 - 05/11/06 02:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yes, and he went to jail for it and came out after he served his time. Has there been anything undemocratic since then in the way he got elected time and time again?
Can you elaborate on the kind of censorship you saw with your own eyes? The only thing I've read so far in this thread is he (i.e. his tax services) closed down a newspaper for one day over their refusal to pay taxes. But I'm sincerely interested in what you saw.
As for the bias, two remarks. - What kind of coverage do you think a foreign leader this critical to the US government is going to receive in the US? Are you aware of the daily level of fabrication and distortion in the US media? - Everyone seems shocked by the fact that Chavez uses state television to his own benefit. I think it's only normal in a climate of fierce antigovernment propaganda by the private corporate media (which represent 95% of the media in the country) that he would use the tools he's got to counter that. Of course, in the US, you cannot imagine that since almost all media are corporate and some of them act as government propagandists. While Chavez uses his state TV for six hours on end per week, Fox does the job for Bush 24/7. In the US a large proportion of the media are with the government, or at least not playing a very critical role, and all of them operate in a community of values with the ruling system. In Venezuela, Chavez is trying to break the old system of class rule by the top 20% of the population (who own the commercial media). Thus the media have values opposed to the government's, to the point that they cheer at antidemocratic forces seizing power. It's only normal that the government would have at least one media outlet to express their views. That's what governments do, openly or covertly.
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Silversoul
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Aldous]
#5617585 - 05/11/06 02:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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It doesn't matter what the US media says. Human Rights Watch is not affiliated with the US government or US media, and it is far from right-wing, yet they have denounced the Chavez government's suppression of free speech through laws that broaden government powers to punish "disrespectful" comments about the government.
link
Oh, and I don't blame Chavez for using state-run media as a speaking platform, but I do blame him for suppressing dissent.
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Alex213
Stranger
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Aldous]
#5619908 - 05/12/06 01:09 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Everyone seems shocked by the fact that Chavez uses state television to his own benefit. I think it's only normal in a climate of fierce antigovernment propaganda by the private corporate media (which represent 95% of the media in the country) that he would use the tools he's got to counter that. Of course, in the US, you cannot imagine that since almost all media are corporate and some of them act as government propagandists. While Chavez uses his state TV for six hours on end per week, Fox does the job for Bush 24/7. In the US a large proportion of the media are with the government, or at least not playing a very critical role, and all of them operate in a community of values with the ruling system. In Venezuela, Chavez is trying to break the old system of class rule by the top 20% of the population (who own the commercial media). Thus the media have values opposed to the government's, to the point that they cheer at antidemocratic forces seizing power. It's only normal that the government would have at least one media outlet to express their views. That's what governments do, openly or covertly.
This is a very real problem. With media ownership in the hands of a few corporate CEO's any government that strays from an obedient neoliberal, free-market party line is going to be crucified every day. How do you handle a politically motivated media that is totally representative of the needs of a handful of CEO's rather than the population of the country?
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EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Alex213]
#5619916 - 05/12/06 01:13 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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You don't, you either ignore the problem or you bitch about it constantly, either way, you do nothing to change it.
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: EquilibriuM]
#5619923 - 05/12/06 01:16 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Good point. I guess the media bias has utterly failed anyway, otherwise the people wouldn't be voting in Chavez.
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Aldous
enthusiast


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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Silversoul]
#5620175 - 05/12/06 05:03 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Thanks for the link.
I don't have any problem whatsoever with repression of defamation and libel. It's a democratic tool, as I pointed out before. You could argue against jail sentences in this kind of matter, but that's due to the specific situation. The corporate media don't care about fines, they're filthy rich. If an individual journalist risks a jail sentence, he will think twice and get his facts straight.
I'm willing to admit that the laws against "disrespect" for the president and other officials are more problematic. But then, I'm sure you don't realize what the private media in Venezuela had come to. Fox News is a quality channel, genuinely fair and balanced, compared to the average Venezuelan commercial TV channel. Whatever political Chavez takes, they never comment it on a political level. Rather, they invite a psychiatrist to comment about which aspect of the president's madness accounts for the new measure (not joking!!). They also regularly insult him on a racial basis (he's half Indian), etc. There's never any political comment, only personal attacks based on lies and insult, 24/7. Yet Chavez never reacted by outright censorship, which is strange for an "authoritarian dictator". Never was a single journalist arrested, harrassed or otherwise obstructed. After all these years of insult, he's finally taken a legal move in order to enforce a minimum of dignity. While I don't approve of this kind of measure, I deem it completely understandable.
Final remark: the Western media don't even have to be actively biased about Chavez. They "naturally" consider anything the local private media say more trustworthy than what the state channel would have to say. So most of what is said about Chavez in the West originates from Venezuelan private media, which probably hold a world record of media bias along with North-Korean state media, maybe.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Alex213]
#5620715 - 05/12/06 10:45 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said: Everyone seems shocked by the fact that Chavez uses state television to his own benefit. I think it's only normal in a climate of fierce antigovernment propaganda by the private corporate media (which represent 95% of the media in the country) that he would use the tools he's got to counter that. Of course, in the US, you cannot imagine that since almost all media are corporate and some of them act as government propagandists. While Chavez uses his state TV for six hours on end per week, Fox does the job for Bush 24/7. In the US a large proportion of the media are with the government, or at least not playing a very critical role, and all of them operate in a community of values with the ruling system. In Venezuela, Chavez is trying to break the old system of class rule by the top 20% of the population (who own the commercial media). Thus the media have values opposed to the government's, to the point that they cheer at antidemocratic forces seizing power. It's only normal that the government would have at least one media outlet to express their views. That's what governments do, openly or covertly.
This is a very real problem. With media ownership in the hands of a few corporate CEO's any government that strays from an obedient neoliberal, free-market party line is going to be crucified every day. How do you handle a politically motivated media that is totally representative of the needs of a handful of CEO's rather than the population of the country?
The problem with media these days is the same problem there is with politicians. Media outlets are business ventures, so they can not take the chance of alienating potential viewers. This means that they have to create a "one-size-fits-all" form of news, which mostly ends up being worthless. More money and man-hours are being put towards soft news like human interest pieces. I remember during Hurrican Katrina that CNN did this huge piece on the pets left behind when the people fled their homes. This is a perfect example of the garbage that is monopolizing the news outlets these days.
If anything, the outlets are taking the consumers into account way too much, not too little.
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Aldous
enthusiast


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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Redstorm]
#5621187 - 05/12/06 12:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: If anything, the outlets are taking the consumers into account way too much, not too little.
Quite right about that, even though you forgot to involve the advertisers and the shareholders in the picture.
In a country like the US, "the consumers" means a large majority of the people. In a country like Venezuela, "the consumers" is a much more elitist concept.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Aldous]
#5621590 - 05/12/06 03:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yeah, you're definitely correct about the readership in Venezuela. I was thinking about the US, and didn't even think about things like literacy rates.
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EquilibriuM
dream stalker

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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Redstorm]
#5621649 - 05/12/06 03:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
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bukkake


Registered: 05/28/05
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Silversoul]
#5623203 - 05/12/06 10:53 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said: J. Edgar Hoover was colorful and joyous? Sure coulda fooled me.
The mafia has(or had) proof of his color and joy.
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