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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5608162 - 05/09/06 10:31 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:

I wish President Bush would do this, over half the people of America would be down with it. and than thats democracy.....right....

Gotta love it or leave it.......




I disagree with your speculation. I don't think more than half the population would "be down with it", nor would half the voting the population.

And yes it would be democracy. Anything that the majority of people vote for is democracy in action. Again. Love it or leave it.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5609574 - 05/09/06 05:20 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Don't bother debating the guy who supported Pinochet's rule.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: bukkake]
    #5610797 - 05/09/06 10:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
Don't bother debating the guy who supported Pinochet's rule.




HELL YEA!!!! FUCK DEBATING....

And BTW Pinochet was not all that bad. His main crime was getting the communists out of Chile and delivering them a self-government. That's why the world and the liberal pussies hate him.

In their minds, he  is the same category as Nixon, McCarthy, Hoover, and Reagan, all communist fighters. :grin:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5611089 - 05/09/06 11:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar said:
And BTW Pinochet was not all that bad. His main crime was getting the communists out of Chile and delivering them a self-government. That's why the world and the liberal pussies hate him.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet#Suppression_of_opposition

Quote:

After the military's seizure of power, Pinochet engaged in brutal political repression, aiming to destroy all remaining support for the defeated Popular Unity (PU) government. In October 1973, at least 70 people were killed by the Caravan of Death. Almost immediately, the junta banned all the leftist parties that had constituted Allende's UP coalition. Much of the regime's violence was directed toward those it viewed as socialist or Marxist sympathizers, though dissidents who spoke out against the government were also persecuted. Those murdered during Pinochet's 17 years in power are said to have "been disappeared." It is not known exactly how many people were killed by government and military forces during the 17 years that he was in power, but the Rettig Commission listed 2,095 deaths and 1,102 "disappearances.", with the vast majority of victims coming from the opposition to Pinochet at the hands of the state security apparatus. Torture was also commonly used against dissidents. Thousands of Chileans were expelled from and fled the country to escape the regime. In 2004, the National Commission on Political Prisoners and Torture produced the Valech Report after interviewing an estimated 35,000 people who claimed to have been abused by the regime. About 28,000 of those testimonies were regarded as legitimate. According to the Commission, more than half of the arrests occurred in the months immediately following the coup (approximately 18,000 of those testifying claimed they were detained between September and December of 1973).

Pinochet's rule was frequently made unstable by protests and isolated violent attacks. Isolated attacks by armed groups opposed to the regime increased government paranoia allowed the dictatorship to justify what they termed the "cycle" of oppression.

In contrast to most other nations in Latin America, prior to the coup Chile had a long tradition of democratic civilian rule; military intervention in politics had been rare. Some political scientists have ascribed the bloodiness of the coup to the stability of the existing democratic system, which required extreme action to overturn.

The situation in Chile came to international attention in September 1976, when Orlando Letelier, a former Chilean ambassador to the United States and minister in Allende's cabinet, was assassinated by a car bomb in Washington, D.C.. General Carlos Prats, Pinochet's predecessor and army commander under Allende, who had resigned rather than support the moves against the democratic system, was assassinated under similar circumstances in Buenos Aires, Argentina, two years earlier.



How do you create self-government when so many of the "selves" mysteriously disappear?


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5612196 - 05/10/06 10:59 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I would say he did a few things worse than kicking the communists out.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5612241 - 05/10/06 11:15 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I wonder why they love him so much




Maybe because the press doesn't feed people real food, and believe me, i lived in Venezuela for 6 years in the 80's when i was a kid, and i saw many poverty and hungry people over there. Me and my parents came back to Europe because middle class was steadily disappearing. Many of my Venezuelan friends had to go through some hard times, but most of them now have a feeling of hope which they never had before.

Let's face it, before Chavez, Venezuelan regime was a corrupt one , controlled mostly by foreign interests. It was very similar to those south-american regimes controlled by the US and its geopolitical communist phobia, which precipitated right wing coup d'etat in countries like Chile, Argentina and financed the destruction of many central american countries and their regimes.

Anyway, i guess people are more interested on having dignity in their lives and food on their tables first, than caring for freedom of "some" press. I guess both are of great importance, but we all know that even the media is affected by politics. Right wing controlled that country for many years and i believe part of their media is still struggling to revert things as they were before. Damn their mind control, give freedom to the people, they want it first!

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5612326 - 05/10/06 11:45 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:

Democracy at risk

Venezuela's ChÁvez is shackling the press

April 5, 2006

Press in peril:

Venezuela's President Hugo Chávez and his leftist “Bolivarian Revolution” are throttling that oil-rich country's free press. Half a dozen Latin countries have turned moderately left in recent years but only Venezuela, so far, is moving to silence press criticism and stifle dissent.

Chávez, a crude populist and ex-army officer, sees his critics among Venezuela's newspapers and broadcast networks as bourgeois reactionaries out to sabotage his self-styled revolution. Much of the Venezuelan press sees itself as fighting a desperate battle to preserve the country's democratic institutions against a strong-armed president whose political hero is Fidel Castro.

At first, Chávez used demagoguery and denunciation against the press. Then he resorted to direct action, inciting street mobs to attack journalists and their press organizations. Chávez's incitement has prompted a series of assaults in which journalists have been beaten or threatened.

Now, Chávez and his government are moving systematically to undercut press freedoms and silence press criticism of his lurch leftward. A Venezuelan congress and judiciary effectively controlled by Chávez are enacting laws and regulations that criminalize dissent. “Social responsibility” laws are being used to impose de facto censorship on radio and television news and commentary. A tangle of new arbitrary laws, decrees, regulations and rules is being put in place to stifle press criticism and give Chávez and his revolution an ever freer ride in the media.

While Chávez's critics in the press are hounded and harassed, Chávez gets an average of 40 broadcast hours a week, unchallenged by critics, to harangue Venezuelans.

The new laws and regulations plus higher taxes and punitive fines amount to a neo-totalitarian infrastructure for muzzling Venezuela's once-vibrant press. In an ominous portent, the 100-year-old El Impulso newspaper of Barquisimeto, Venezuela, was arbitrarily closed and prevented from publishing by government tax collectors for a day last October.

Chávez's campaign to muzzle Venezuela's press is provoking strenuous protests from outraged Venezuelan journalists, publishers and broadcasters, plus an international who's who of press-freedom defenders: the Inter American Press Association, Reporters Without Borders, Human Rights Watch, the Institute for Defense of Journalists and the International Association of Radio Broadcasters. In addition, the Organization of American States' Inter-American Commission on Human Rights has signaled its disapproval.

More must be done, by human rights groups and democratic nations in the Western Hemisphere especially, if Chávez is to be deterred from even worse transgressions against the rights of all Venezuelans to a free press. If press freedoms in Venezuela are completely extinguished, what's left of Venezuela's democracy won't be far behind.





Sounds a lot like Pinochet to me!


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: d33p]
    #5613058 - 05/10/06 02:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
Quote:

Alex213 said:
Bear in mind he's asking people to vote on this. If they don't want it, they don't vote for it and it doesn't happen.




My god, you're such a hypocrite.

And nice job on that quote. Made me laugh  :laugh:




How is Al being  hypocritical?

If you're going to accuse somebody of something in here you kind of need to back it up, otherwise it's just like flaming.

If you can back it up then you're making a potentially legitimate challenge to their ideology. No problems there.


--------------------
Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
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\(•_•)
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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #5614024 - 05/10/06 06:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

And BTW Pinochet was not all that bad. His main crime was getting the communists out of Chile and delivering them a self-government. That's why the world and the liberal pussies hate him.

In their minds, he is the same category as Nixon, McCarthy, Hoover, and Reagan, all communist fighters.



Hahaha.

Of course not. Pinochet was only a mass murderer. But "liberals" hate him for other reasons. Pinochet was GLORIOUS.

Nixon was also a compulsive liar and a crook, McCarthy an irrational homosexual, Hoover an equally irrational homosexual crossdresser, and Reagan a blatant capitalist moron. The latter being an outright idiot and buffoon.

But, okay. The liberals are the unaligned sort if you say so.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: bukkake]
    #5614062 - 05/10/06 06:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

What's your problem with homosexuals?


--------------------


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Silversoul]
    #5614070 - 05/10/06 06:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
What's your problem with homosexuals?




They are too festive. Also, they are usually much better looking than I am.


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Silversoul]
    #5614090 - 05/10/06 06:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

What Randal said. Too colorful and joyous for my liking.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: bukkake]
    #5614120 - 05/10/06 06:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

J. Edgar Hoover was colorful and joyous? Sure coulda fooled me.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Silversoul]
    #5614142 - 05/10/06 06:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

That man was the epitomy of sex appeal and you know it.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #5615230 - 05/10/06 10:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
How is Al being hypocritical?

If you're going to accuse somebody of something in here you kind of need to back it up, otherwise it's just like flaming.

If you can back it up then you're making a potentially legitimate challenge to their ideology. No problems there.




In this thread Alex's posts have alluded to "his belief" in the efficacy of democracy in properly representing the will of the people of Venezula. I feel this is in direct contrast to sentiment he has expressed throughout the previous years posting here concerning the nature of democracy and democratic governments. I believe this hypocrasy is resultant of the situation in question in which what he supports appears as though it will win.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: d33p]
    #5616113 - 05/11/06 02:07 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

In this thread Alex's posts have alluded to "his belief" in the efficacy of democracy in properly representing the will of the people of Venezula

Nothing to do with any "belief" of mine. Chavez is winning the elections. Whether he's representing the people or not is something for them to say.

I feel this is in direct contrast to sentiment he has expressed throughout the previous years posting here concerning the nature of democracy and democratic governments

Example?

I believe this hypocrasy is resultant of the situation in question in which what he supports appears as though it will win.

Are you trying to say I'm against democracy?  :confused:


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OfflineAldous
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5616258 - 05/11/06 03:23 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Now, Chávez and his government are moving systematically to undercut press freedoms and silence press criticism of his lurch leftward. A Venezuelan congress and judiciary effectively controlled by Chávez are enacting laws and regulations that criminalize dissent. “Social responsibility” laws are being used to impose de facto censorship on radio and television news and commentary. A tangle of new arbitrary laws, decrees, regulations and rules is being put in place to stifle press criticism and give Chávez and his revolution an ever freer ride in the media.


Wow, those lies are so blatant...

In fact, the corporate media loudly cheered at the illegal coup in April 2002. They are owned by the social category who staged the coup. Despite the provocation, there has never been any censorship whatsoever, and never was a single journalist jailed. The freedom of the press in Venezuela is absolute, there's even freedom of false allegation and anti-government propaganda. No problem with that, except liars can be brought to trial for defamation, which is another trait of a true democracy.

Also, Chavez strongly encouraged the emergence of community media, which are open for anyone to participate in. It's media by the people for the people. He also funded a new people's national TV channel, which is entirely free to criticize the government and doesn't hesitate to do just that, but not in a propagandist and defamatory kind of way like the corporate media do. I personally know one of the managers there, and he says their freedom is complete.

The press is much freer in Venezuela than in most Western-backed countries in the region. If you dispute that, back it up with facts (numbers of media outlets closed, numbers of journalists assaulted, killed or jailed, instances of censorship, etc.).


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Aldous]
    #5616762 - 05/11/06 11:22 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Sorry, but that's bullshit. I saw a special about Chavez on the Discovery Times channel. Now, you can complain all you want about whatever bias they might have, but I saw with my own two eyes the kind of censorship being done under Chavez. It may not be as bad as some other authoritarian regimes, but they have anything but a free press.

And btw, before you get all high and mighty about the "illegal coup" in 2002, it should be noted that before Chavez got elected, he tried unsuccessfully to stage a military coup in 1992.


--------------------


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OfflineAldous
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Silversoul]
    #5617514 - 05/11/06 02:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, and he went to jail for it and came out after he served his time. Has there been anything undemocratic since then in the way he got elected time and time again?

Can you elaborate on the kind of censorship you saw with your own eyes? The only thing I've read so far in this thread is he (i.e. his tax services) closed down a newspaper for one day over their refusal to pay taxes. But I'm sincerely interested in what you saw.

As for the bias, two remarks.
- What kind of coverage do you think a foreign leader this critical to the US government is going to receive in the US? Are you aware of the daily level of fabrication and distortion in the US media?
- Everyone seems shocked by the fact that Chavez uses state television to his own benefit. I think it's only normal in a climate of fierce antigovernment propaganda by the private corporate media (which represent 95% of the media in the country) that he would use the tools he's got to counter that. Of course, in the US, you cannot imagine that since almost all media are corporate and some of them act as government propagandists. While Chavez uses his state TV for six hours on end per week, Fox does the job for Bush 24/7. In the US a large proportion of the media are with the government, or at least not playing a very critical role, and all of them operate in a community of values with the ruling system. In Venezuela, Chavez is trying to break the old system of class rule by the top 20% of the population (who own the commercial media). Thus the media have values opposed to the government's, to the point that they cheer at antidemocratic forces seizing power. It's only normal that the government would have at least one media outlet to express their views. That's what governments do, openly or covertly.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Chavez... gotta love the guy [Re: Aldous]
    #5617585 - 05/11/06 02:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

It doesn't matter what the US media says. Human Rights Watch is not affiliated with the US government or US media, and it is far from right-wing, yet they have denounced the Chavez government's suppression of free speech through laws that broaden government powers to punish "disrespectful" comments about the government.

link

Oh, and I don't blame Chavez for using state-run media as a speaking platform, but I do blame him for suppressing dissent.


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