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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Will you accept ----- as your personal....
    #5597837 - 05/06/06 02:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Just wanted to make a point.

The general vibe of this forum seems to be to complain about how christians are always trying to convince other people to join in their worldview...

So christians blame others for not thinking like them, and the same people here who are complaining about that also blame others for not seeing things their way, and often calling people who think differently un-awakened, less aware or whatever

Show those christians a good example by NOT trying to make them see why drugs are good for you and telling them they should get layed more often..


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleIcelander
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5597906 - 05/06/06 02:50 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Everyone has a world view and we are here to promote and debate them. I am willing to have any Christian tell me their story and debate it as long as they don't threaten me or anyone else with eternal damnation and fiery torture. I don't believe it but I worry that some might and I'm always going to present a counterpoint to threats like this.

Outside of that, (and that is personal for me) I don't mind some heated debate as long as we try to keep the personalisms out.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5597911 - 05/06/06 02:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

That's the problem with believing in made up things that don't exist, like religion. Everyone is right and accuses everyone else of being wrong. And since the beliefs are based on invisible beings not in evidence, no rational thoughts or common observations are possible to refute them and people are left without any sort of commonality. This breeds adversaries.

Let that situation fester for a while, and you get denial, wars, witch burnings, oppression, prohibition, suicide bombers and all the rest.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (05/06/06 07:05 PM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Diploid]
    #5597919 - 05/06/06 02:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I've seen far more evangelism from atheists here than I have from the faithful. I personally see little difference between these two forms of evangelism. It's all just a battle of egos.


--------------------


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Invisiblemoog
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Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 1,296
Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Icelander]
    #5597920 - 05/06/06 02:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The challenge lies in accepting someone's world view without arguing or debating it.


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OfflineOctavius
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5597921 - 05/06/06 02:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I no longer use drugs, and can't really see why Christians would want to use them. Even though Marijuana gives you a sort of spiritual experience, just as the mushrooms do. For me being sober all the time I feel great. I feel healthy.

The Christians that I can think of, take the word of the bible over anything. Sort of closed-minded. As the preacher starts his Sunday morning.

You could say that us shroomerites are free-thinkers. Who haven't been filled with Christianity.

That's about all I can think of at the moment,
Octavius


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Invisiblemoog
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Posts: 1,296
Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5597923 - 05/06/06 02:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, exactly.


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OfflineOctavius
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: moog]
    #5597928 - 05/06/06 03:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

SilverSoul can you explain Evangelism to me?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5597930 - 05/06/06 03:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

True, but I haven't heard any athiests threaten anyone with hellfire and brimstone like fivepointer does with his petty little god.

Chime in here fivepointer and tell us what you think.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5597932 - 05/06/06 03:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I've seen far more evangelism from atheists here than I have from the faithful

Asking for evidence in good faith is not evangelism. It's the bedrock of critical thought. You used to know this.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Octavius]
    #5597933 - 05/06/06 03:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Octavius said:
SilverSoul can you explain Evangelism to me?



Evangelism is essentially the continual attempt to convert people, or establish one's beliefs as superior to another's.


--------------------


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Posts: 23,576
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Diploid]
    #5597941 - 05/06/06 03:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I've seen far more evangelism from atheists here than I have from the faithful

Asking for evidence in good faith is not evangelism. It's the bedrock of critical thought. You used to know this.



I still know this. But it is rather dishonest of you to act as if this is the only thing atheists such as you are doing on this forum. You and several others here have made every attempt to ridicule faith and portray atheism as the only possible sane position. That is evangelism.


--------------------


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Diploid]
    #5597953 - 05/06/06 03:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

That's the problem with believing in made up things that don't exist, like religion. Everyone is right and accuses everyone else of being wrong. And since the beliefs are based on invisible beings not in evidence, no rational thoughts or common observations are possible to refute them and people are left without any sort of commonality. This breads adversaries.

Let that situation fester for a while, and you get denial, wars, witch burnings, oppression, prohibition, suicide bombers and all the rest.




But that is only half of the truth.
Every inflated ego conceals objective truth, may it in spirituality or rationality.
The inflated rational ego says "Money makes the world go round and money is the mean to superiority, wealth and pleasure for everyone. Hierarchic material power systems will keep every man in line and partake in the monetary system. And I have nuclear weapons, too."

Wise spiritual and rational men and women tend to let everyone cook its own soup, as long it doesn't negatively interfere in the others objective reality.

edit: Oops, I am quite late with this. One time, half an hour nothing happens and then 5 people answer in three minutes :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (05/06/06 03:30 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5597961 - 05/06/06 03:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You and several others here have made every attempt to ridicule faith...

Asking for evidence of a claim is ridicule? Pointing out where a system of beliefs contradicts itself is ridicule?

Where you see ridicule, I see critical thought and a search for Truth, whatever it may be.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Posts: 23,576
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Diploid]
    #5597969 - 05/06/06 03:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You are again being dishonest in portraying your position. If you were merely asking for evidence, I would applaud you. But you have maintain the most condescending of attitudes towards beliefs which recognize a higher power. You are the second biggest evangelizer here, next to Skorpivo(yes, even fivepointer is not as bad as you). There are several skeptics here who maintain an honest skepticism towards others' beliefs(MushmanTheManic comes to mind), but you, sir, like to pretend that ridicule and hostility are the same as skeptical inquiry.


--------------------


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5597991 - 05/06/06 03:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

But you have maintain the most condescending of attitudes towards beliefs which recognize a higher power

Actually, all I do it put forth my ideas and let the natural selection of vigorous debate decide if they're worth holding on to. See, that's the difference between you and me. I would change my mind in a moment were a rational refutation to my ideas presented, but EVERY refutation takes the form of "I experienced it and it must be true even though nobody outside my head experienced it" or some variation of that.

The True Believer will not change his mind, no matter what line of reasoning is presented, no matter what evidence; not even if it makes perfect sense. They won't even discuss hypotheticals if there's any hint that the discussion might show a hole in their belief system.

It's the True Believers who are intellectually dishonest.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Diploid]
    #5598027 - 05/06/06 03:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
That's the problem with believing in made up things that don't exist, like religion. Everyone is right and accuses everyone else of being wrong. And since the beliefs are based on invisible beings not in evidence, no rational thoughts or common observations are possible to refute them and people are left without any sort of commonality. This breads adversaries.

Let that situation fester for a while, and you get denial, wars, witch burnings, oppression, prohibition, suicide bombers and all the rest.




yea, but paranormal things asside, I was more thinking about moral issues etc. whcih seem to conflict between christians and avarage shroomer. Both have their views and beliefs, and I just think that a typical shroomer has no more right of pushing their moral convicitions than christians have pushing theirs


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Octavius]
    #5598035 - 05/06/06 03:42 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Octavius said:
I no longer use drugs, and can't really see why Christians would want to use them. Even though Marijuana gives you a sort of spiritual experience, just as the mushrooms do. For me being sober all the time I feel great. I feel healthy.

The Christians that I can think of, take the word of the bible over anything. Sort of closed-minded. As the preacher starts his Sunday morning.

You could say that us shroomerites are free-thinkers. Who haven't been filled with Christianity.

That's about all I can think of at the moment,
Octavius




But shroomers are also closeminded toward christian views, so they are no more open-minded than anyone other. Have you actually seen someone change their mind during discussion here on this forum? That rarely happens, shroomers are pretty close minded people, just like everyone else.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Diploid]
    #5598041 - 05/06/06 03:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
But you have maintain the most condescending of attitudes towards beliefs which recognize a higher power

Actually, all I do it put forth my ideas and let the natural selection of vigorous debate decide if they're worth holding on to. See, that's the difference between you and me. I would change my mind in a moment were a rational refutation to my ideas presented, but EVERY refutation takes the form of "I experienced it and it must be true even though nobody outside my head experienced it" or some variation of that.

The True Believer will not change his mind, no matter what line of reasoning is presented, no matter what evidence; not even if it makes perfect sense. They won't even discuss hypotheticals if there's any hint that the discussion might show a hole in their belief system.

It's the True Believers who are intellectually dishonest.




Diploid, as much as I remember you, you were never wrong about asking for proof, it's just that you were always asking the wrong questions.

When someone says he thinks angels exist, you ask them to bring you a feather...

You are always testing peoples limited understandings about certains concepts instead of testing the concepts themselfs


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5598054 - 05/06/06 03:52 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Both have their views and beliefs, and I just think that a typical shroomer has no more right of pushing their moral convicitions than christians have pushing theirs

and

Show those christians a good example by NOT trying to make them see why drugs are good for you and telling them they should get layed more often..


Well, while I think everyone should put fourth their ideas and beliefs, especially if the intent is to scrutinize them in debate, the problem with not opposing fundamentalist anti-drug Christians and their ilk is that they aren't content to sit by and talk about their beliefs. They actively organize and try to foist their beliefs on the rest of us through legislation of morality and political influence peddling.

That's why free-thinkers get riled up over fundamentalists.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5598065 - 05/06/06 03:56 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

it's just that you were always asking the wrong questions.

There ARE no wrong questions in the search for Truth, only uncomfortable ones. They're uncomfortable because they shine a light on a possible flaw that your ego has taken a liking to.

Separate your ego from your beliefs, and you'll be more comfortable if they're ever shown to be lacking. Your search for Truth, unencumbered by ego, will be more fruitful too.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineDeathCompany
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Diploid]
    #5598074 - 05/06/06 04:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
it's just that you were always asking the wrong questions.

There ARE no wrong questions in the search for Truth, only uncomfortable ones. They're uncomfortable because they shine a light on a possible flaw that your ego has taken a liking to.





very well said


--------------------


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5598091 - 05/06/06 04:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

But shroomers are also closeminded toward christian views, so they are no more open-minded than anyone other. Have you actually seen someone change their mind during discussion here on this forum?

I'm not sure if that's being closed minded or just not convinced. For me, being open minded means to actually listen to what the person is saying, free from my own expectations, opinions, and thoughts. Then to either accept his thinking as it is, or if it's a debate, then to try to argue against his thinking if I see it as differing from my own views.

I see being closed minded as either not properly listening or refusal to accept a person's views as such, and wanting to prove yourself right in all situations.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Diploid]
    #5598104 - 05/06/06 04:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

No, I really mean WRONG questions. This is a wrong question:

person A: Yesterday I bought a color TV
person B: And what color was that?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5598108 - 05/06/06 04:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

:lol:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Diploid]
    #5598110 - 05/06/06 04:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
it's just that you were always asking the wrong questions.

There ARE no wrong questions in the search for Truth, only uncomfortable ones. They're uncomfortable because they shine a light on a possible flaw that your ego has taken a liking to.

Separate your ego from your beliefs, and you'll be more comfortable if they're ever shown to be lacking. Your search for Truth, unencumbered by ego, will be more fruitful too.




no, he was saying that you were asking the wrong questions in the sense that you were testing peoples limited understanding of concepts instead of testing the concepts themselves. for example, if i started asking a 9th grader who had a limited understanding of biology, questions about evolution that he couldn't answer, this would not prove the theory of evolution was false, nor would it be a good way to assess the merit of the theory.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5598122 - 05/06/06 04:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
You are again being dishonest in portraying your position. If you were merely asking for evidence, I would applaud you. But you have maintain the most condescending of attitudes towards beliefs which recognize a higher power. You are the second biggest evangelizer here, next to Skorpivo(yes, even fivepointer is not as bad as you). There are several skeptics here who maintain an honest skepticism towards others' beliefs(MushmanTheManic comes to mind), but you, sir, like to pretend that ridicule and hostility are the same as skeptical inquiry.




I think that's not true. I have heard Dip often state that shown evidence he would be very eager to believe some of the things said as truth on this forum. He's one of the most open minded on these forums IMO. He's also fucking smart and experienced, which may bug some folks. He's a real asset to the shroomery and his only problem that I see is that he doesn't involve himself in enough threads here.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Deviate]
    #5598126 - 05/06/06 04:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

Diploid said:
it's just that you were always asking the wrong questions.

There ARE no wrong questions in the search for Truth, only uncomfortable ones. They're uncomfortable because they shine a light on a possible flaw that your ego has taken a liking to.

Separate your ego from your beliefs, and you'll be more comfortable if they're ever shown to be lacking. Your search for Truth, unencumbered by ego, will be more fruitful too.




no, he was saying that you were asking the wrong questions in the sense that you were testing peoples limited understanding of concepts instead of testing the concepts themselves. for example, if i started asking a 9th grader who had a limited understanding of biology, questions about evolution that he couldn't answer, this would not prove the theory of evolution was false, nor would it be a good way to assess the merit of the theory.




In a way, yes...

the kid says: ..so the monkeys turned into people
you say: really? did it happen while they were sleeping?
kid: I don't know, I think not
you: oh? And how long did it take?
kid: I don't know, I think it must have been long, like months
you: really? that sounds unlikely. Did those people remember the times when they were monkeys?
kid: I don't know, I think they must have, I mean I remember when I was in kindergarten, sort of..and that was more than months ago..
you: And did it hurt?
kid: yea, I think so, but I'm not sure
you: you know what kid? This theory of yourse is full of holes, I don't buy it. There is no such thing as evolution


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Icelander]
    #5598187 - 05/06/06 04:52 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
You are again being dishonest in portraying your position. If you were merely asking for evidence, I would applaud you. But you have maintain the most condescending of attitudes towards beliefs which recognize a higher power. You are the second biggest evangelizer here, next to Skorpivo(yes, even fivepointer is not as bad as you). There are several skeptics here who maintain an honest skepticism towards others' beliefs(MushmanTheManic comes to mind), but you, sir, like to pretend that ridicule and hostility are the same as skeptical inquiry.




I think that's not true. I have heard Dip often state that shown evidence he would be very eager to believe some of the things said as truth on this forum. He's one of the most open minded on these forums IMO. He's also fucking smart and experienced, which may bug some folks. He's a real asset to the shroomery and his only problem that I see is that he doesn't involve himself in enough threads here.




saying that you'll believe something when shown evidence doesn't mean you aren't condescending.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Deviate]
    #5598282 - 05/06/06 05:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I'm saying that I don't notice him being condescending. I think I'm much more condescending than Diploid. Everyone here I believe is condescending at times but in general Diploid is not.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Icelander]
    #5598504 - 05/06/06 06:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I'm saying that I don't notice him being condescending. I think I'm much more condescending than Diploid. Everyone here I believe is condescending at times but in general Diploid is not.





And I don't think either of you two are condescending. All this does to show, is the simple fact that all of our conceptions in the prints of posts, paragraphs and threads, are all in relation to our particular concept-formation drawing in on banks of memories and imagination. It's rather typical for most to not think in a vacuum. Come to think of it, I've always thought Diploid was one of the least condescending people around here - but what is objectively the case, I don't know and frankly, I don't care to know. Whether he smiles or frowns while writing posts has no bearing on the validity of any points he makes, whatsoever.





--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5599331 - 05/06/06 10:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

If any Christian tries to convert me, I'm gonna slap em around.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5599381 - 05/06/06 11:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"I want to learn more and more to see as beautiful what is necessary in things; then I shall be one of those who make things beautiful... I do not want to wage war against what is ugly. I do not want to accuse; I do not even want to accuse those who accuse. Looking away shall be my only negation." -- Nietzsche


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5599420 - 05/06/06 11:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I keep wanting to do this but I keep going back in to wage war. Sometimes I see myself as an antibody and I have to attack anything I think is a virus.

That's just crazy. :tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Icelander]
    #5599425 - 05/06/06 11:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Or is it? Maybe that's my job in the Universe. :rolleyes: :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Icelander]
    #5599583 - 05/07/06 12:16 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Or is it? Maybe that's my job in the Universe. :rolleyes: :grin:




:grin: I wonder if we can ever actually 'know' our job in the Universe?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Icelander]
    #5599736 - 05/07/06 12:54 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I keep wanting to do this but I keep going back in to wage war. Sometimes I see myself as an antibody and I have to attack anything I think is a virus.

That's just crazy. :tongue:



No, it isn't. Nietzsche ended crazy, so you have to take him with a big grain of salt. If i.e. a woman is raped before your eyes, one of the worst things you can do is to look away. And I think that is so, with every major crime.

Learn what you ought to know for yourself, making moral decisions, then make reason your sword and faith your shield :wink:
Open your ears, eyes and mouth then you know when to use your weapon and shield.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5599968 - 05/07/06 02:15 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Taking Nietzsche with a big grain of salt will only give you indigestion.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5600410 - 05/07/06 08:48 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Outside of that, (and that is personal for me) I don't mind some heated debate as long as we try to keep the personalisms out.








Quote:

Icelander said:
True, but I haven't heard any athiests threaten anyone with hellfire and brimstone like fivepointer does with his petty little god.

Chime in here fivepointer and tell us what you think.




Quote:

Silversoul said:
But it is rather dishonest of you to act as if this is the only thing atheists such as you are doing on this forum.  You and several others here have made every attempt to ridicule faith and portray atheism as the only possible sane position.  That is evangelism.




Quote:

Silversoul said:
You are again being dishonest in portraying your position.  If you were merely asking for evidence, I would applaud you.  But you have maintain the most condescending of attitudes towards beliefs which recognize a higher power.  You are the second biggest evangelizer here, next to Skorpivo(yes, even fivepointer is not as bad as you).  There are several skeptics here who maintain an honest skepticism towards others' beliefs(MushmanTheManic comes to mind), but you, sir, like to pretend that ridicule and hostility are the same as skeptical inquiry.






So much for trying to keep personalisms out of the heated debate, eh? :rolleyes:

There certainly isn't anything like unsubstantiated heresay and speculation under the veil of "discussion". :frown:

:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5600518 - 05/07/06 09:45 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I didn't say anything personal about fivepointer. I called his god petty and asked him to give his two cents so people could see what I'm talking about.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Icelander]
    #5600525 - 05/07/06 09:49 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

It would be a personalism to say that you are an ass. It would not be to say that your ideas are asinine.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5600542 - 05/07/06 09:56 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
.
I've seen far more evangelism from atheists here than I have from the faithful. I personally see little difference between these two forms of evangelism. It's all just a battle of egos.





P&S even went through a crisis and waged war on the mysticism forum because it drew away the faithful from being constantly debunked in P&S to a demilitarized safe haven in MR&P.
Some people who are loyal to P&S fight this war even today.

On the Shroomery its the atheists who are fundamentalist. The believers are in check just fine, its the nonbelievers who keep stirring up shit, be it spiritual nonbelievers or social nonbelievers.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Asante]
    #5600564 - 05/07/06 10:05 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Frankly I don't think there are many atheists here. I think you mean rationalists.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Icelander]
    #5600572 - 05/07/06 10:09 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

So there is no characterization of someone's personal identity as the result of their expression and behavior here?

Quote:


threaten anyone like fivepointer does...




Quote:


you and several others here make every attempt...




Quote:


you maintain the most condescending of attitudes...




Quote:


you are the second biggest evangelizer here, next to Skorp...




Completely unnecessary bullshit, honestly. There is no need for such commentary on who another person is and what they do. It is unproductive and cannot be discussed. It ends with people saying "oh, you do this, and you are that", and the other saying "no, this is what i do, you do that", etc. etc. etc.

Your comment towards fivepointer is a bit different, in that you state that he threatens individuals with fire and brimstone (at this point, I will ask you to provide an example of his doing this, otherwise there is no point in even proposing such thought for discussion). We can analzye an expression to determine if it is a threat or not "You will go to hell if you don't believe me". A very amusing threat, but a threat nonetheless.

Most notably, however, comments such as "you maintain the most condescending attitude" is bullshit heresay that has no purpose in being expressed in this forum. It is unsubstantiated accusations that cannot be determined, and it inevitably results in locked threads, warnings, and bans. Do we know the person or their actual attitude? Fuck no. Keep that pointless shit out of this forum, and feel free to utilize private messages to share your evaluations of another's character with them. :rolleyes:

:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Asante]
    #5600584 - 05/07/06 10:12 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
P&S even went through a crisis and waged war on the mysticism forum because it drew away the faithful from being constantly debunked in P&S to a demilitarized safe haven in MR&P.




Philosophy and Spirituality waged war, eh? You mean like two people who went into the forum and trolled it? Wow... two people... truly representative of an entire forum. :lol:

Quote:


Some people who are loyal to P&S fight this war even today.




If we thought personalisms were bad, try directing personalisms agansit an entire forum. :rolleyes:

:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5600590 - 05/07/06 10:14 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Icelander wrote:
True, but I haven't heard any athiests threaten anyone with hellfire and brimstone like fivepointer does with his petty little god.

Chime in here fivepointer and tell us what you think.



Your missing the point of why there is a Lake of Fire, it is because sinners deserve to be cast into it.

You don't see this because you are ignorant of God's righteousness.

Salvation is not a matter of accepting or rejecting some offer, that would be salvation by works, which is impossible. Anyone that would say such a thing does not believe the gospel. The proof of salvation is the belief of the gospel, period. And what is the gospel? It is in a nutshell, that Christ ALONE secured the salvation of His people, not because they deserve anything (they only deserve wrath), but solely because God is merciful.

Salvation is not a matter of accepting or rejecting some offer, that would be salvation by works, which is impossible. Anyone that would say such a thing does not believe the gospel. The proof of salvation is the belief of the gospel, period. And what is the gospel? It is in a nutshell, that Christ ALONE secured the salvation of His people, not because they deserve anything (they only deserve wrath), but sorely because God is merciful.

The belief of the gospel is not the causative agent of salvation, the causative agent of the mercy of God. The belief of the gospel is the evidence, not the cause of salvation. The vast majority of so called "Christians" have constructed a "gospel" that does not exist in scripture, by confusing the causes and the effects.


Edited by fivepointer (05/07/06 10:47 AM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: fivepointer]
    #5600597 - 05/07/06 10:16 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
You don't see this because you are ignorant of God's righteousness.




More personalisms! What a wonderful thread, very productive. :smirk:

:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5600608 - 05/07/06 10:20 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

[Double posting deleted]


Edited by fivepointer (05/07/06 10:37 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5600624 - 05/07/06 10:24 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I don't remember making that comment on someone being condesending, In fact just yesterday I defended someone who was accused of this and stated that I am more condesending then he.

Fivepointers motives are obvious to me at least. He is saying if you are not saved according to scripture you are going to eternal punishment in hell. Frankly I'm willing to be banned for taking him to task for that.

I know for sure that I have used personalisms at times. I'm not now or will ever be perfect. I try not to as a rule. I really only have a problem with people who make a living out of it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Icelander]
    #5600640 - 05/07/06 10:29 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I don't remember making that comment on someone being condesending, In fact just yesterday I defended someone who was accused of this and stated that I am more condesending then he.




Yes, you were not the person who made that comment, Paradigm did, and it was directed towards Diploid. You commented that you are more condescending than Diploid was. :tongue:

Quote:


Fivepointers motives are obvious to me at least. He is saying if you are not saved according to scripture you are going to eternal punishment in hell. Frankly I'm willing to be banned for taking him to task for that.




So its an unsubstantiated, illogical belief. You didn't really direct a personalism agansit him, but you did state that he threatens, and I asked you to demonstrate where it is that he has done so.

Quote:


I know for sure that I have used personalisms at times. I'm not now or will ever be perfect. I try not to as a rule. I really only have a problem with people who make a living out of it.




Same here. I could name a few if pressed. :lol:

:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5600675 - 05/07/06 10:43 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Icelander wrote:
True, but I haven't heard any athiests threaten anyone with hellfire and brimstone like fivepointer does with his petty little god.

I don't threaten, I'm merely stating what scripture says. You don't have a problem with me, you have a problem with the scripture.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: fivepointer]
    #5600707 - 05/07/06 10:57 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

True I do. Tell me fivepointer. What is your point in posting this on a psychedelic forum?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Icelander]
    #5600740 - 05/07/06 11:10 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Tell me fivepointer. What is your point in posting this on a psychedelic forum?

This is a Spirituality Forum so the postings are on topic.

The gospel must be proclaimed in all places, His sheep will hear His voice. I do not know if any of His sheep are reading this forum, however it is not my job to worry about that.


Edited by fivepointer (05/07/06 11:10 AM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5600743 - 05/07/06 11:10 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
If any Christian tries to convert me, I'm gonna slap em around.




Christians only preach, God alone converts.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: fivepointer]
    #5600811 - 05/07/06 11:38 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I think sheep is a very apt term.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Icelander]
    #5601133 - 05/07/06 02:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Frankly I don't think there are many atheists here. I think you mean rationalists.




i beg to differ, there are quite a few people here who are self-proclaimed atheists.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Deviate]
    #5601166 - 05/07/06 02:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Can you throw out 6 names to me?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Deviate]
    #5601214 - 05/07/06 02:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

There are several agnostics who post here, but I have not heard more than one or two people claim to be atheists.

Quote:

agnostic: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god




However, there are quite a few posters here who are opposed to organized religion, evangelism, and the legislation of religious morals. This has little to do with the existence (or lack thereof) of God, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or any other supernatural beings.


Edited by Veritas (05/07/06 02:37 PM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Icelander]
    #5601294 - 05/07/06 02:48 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Can you throw out 6 names to me?




just off the top of my head i can recall the following users describing themselves as atheist:

diploid
itstarssaddam
ravus
SkorpivoMusterion
bellylard
MikeOLogical
Redstorm

oops that's more than six.


and veritas, i'm well aware of the term agnostic which is why i only listed users who specifically described themselves as atheist, however i suggest you review skorpvio's thread on agnosticism vs atheism <a href="mhttp://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5266178/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1" target="_blank">mhttp://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5266178/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1</a> in which he explains why he is a proud atheist, both hard and soft and how agnosticism gives credit to beliefs which deserve none.


Edited by Deviate (05/07/06 02:49 PM)


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Icelander]
    #5601301 - 05/07/06 02:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Frankly I don't think there are many atheists here. I think you mean rationalists.




Rationalism often leads to Atheism, doesn't it?

But to an ignorant mind, rationalism is as dangerous as blind faith, isn't it?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Deviate]
    #5601326 - 05/07/06 03:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Can you throw out 6 names to me?




just off the top of my head i can recall the following users describing themselves as atheist:

diploid
itstarssaddam
ravus
SkorpivoMusterion
bellylard
MikeOLogical
Redstorm

oops that's more than six.


and veritas, i'm well aware of the term agnostic which is why i only listed users who specifically described themselves as atheist, however i suggest you review skorpvio's thread on agnosticism vs atheism <a href="mhttp://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5266178/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1" target="_blank">mhttp://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5266178/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1</a> in which he explains why he is a proud atheist, both hard and soft and how agnosticism gives credit to beliefs which deserve none.




Ok, Ravus is no longer here so he doesn't count. I would like to hear from these folks and see how many actually are. Chime in here guys.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Icelander]
    #5601354 - 05/07/06 03:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

ravus is still here, he just doesn't post often anymore. his last post date was april 29th, just 8 days ago. and do you want me to provide you quotes from previous threads where those users professed to be atheist? would that be proof enough for you?


Edited by Deviate (05/07/06 03:12 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Deviate]
    #5601402 - 05/07/06 03:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

No I'll take your word for it except maybe Diploid.

But lets say you can find 12. Lets counterpoint that to all the people that believe in god. I bet I can find quite a few. So all in all at least we can say that atheists are far from the majority here. They definately don't rule the boards. By nature they want to see evidence for claims made. That may be why they are perceived as radical and noisy here. But of course we do have another forum for those who don't what beliefs challenged.

Hi Ravus! I was just telling Diploid that I missed you.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Icelander]
    #5601421 - 05/07/06 03:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

So all in all at least we can say that atheists are far from the majority here.



No one's denying that. The thing about them is that they tend to be more evangelical about their beliefs than most of the theists here. I haven't made one iota of effort to convince people here that they should believe in God, but several people here have attacked me for believing in God. My case is certainly far from unique on this forum.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5601762 - 05/07/06 05:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Could be, and I'm not here to defend them. I've been harshly challenged for some of my beliefs and called a liar by some idiot just recently. Guess when you put people together in a forum sometimes we lose our cool. It's almost always because we aren't really very sure of position IMO. Otherwise we can just let it go. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5601786 - 05/07/06 05:13 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Attacked you, or questioned the validity of your beliefs?  Has any atheist said that you, personally, are flawed and unbelievable, or have they merely said this about the idea of faith?

I have been away for a few months, so I might have missed it, but I have not seen anyone attack you personally on these boards.

Is it possible that you are not comfortable with the debate format of this forum?  Here's what the P&S rules state:

Quote:

If you choose to post in this forum be prepared to have your ideas and opinions challenged, refuted, disputed, rebutted, analyzed, shredded, pooh-poohed, and yes - even supported. If having your beliefs, opinions, and positions scrutinized critically makes you uncomfortable, this is not the forum for you.




As I said, I may have missed the incident(s) in which atheists attacked you, personally, for believing in God.  If this is the case, then they were certainly out of line, and disregarding the rule against flaming.

But if they were, in fact, attacking your ideas, then they were participating in this forum as is intended.  If these challenges make you uncomfortable, and you choose to take them personally, you might be more at ease in the MR&P forum.  :shrug:


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5601795 - 05/07/06 05:15 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I have used the word 'atheist' to describe myself, but only to point out that atheism is a withholding of belief in a deity, not active disbelief, which is the belief a deity does not exist. I do not believe a deity does not exist. I feel the same way about the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and for the same reasons.

My beliefs currently fall right smack dab in the middle of:

Quote:

agnostic: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god




pending any new discovery or argument that would change my mind.

Every time I say "there is no God", it is not intended as a statement of fact. My purpose is to test that statement in debate to see if it needs revision. So far, I've never found a reason to revise it.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Veritas]
    #5601803 - 05/07/06 05:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I'm well aware of the forum rules, and fully support free speech. That doesn't mean I can't call people out for being hypocrites. I know fully well the difference between questioning someone's beliefs and belittling them, and I've seen plenty of both happen in this forum.


--------------------


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Diploid]
    #5601813 - 05/07/06 05:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Every time I say "there is no God", it is not intended as a statement of fact. My purpose is to test that statement in debate to see if it needs revision. So far, I've never found a reason to revise it.




You zealous propagator of your cause! :rolleyes:

:grin:

:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Diploid]
    #5601816 - 05/07/06 05:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

atheism:
2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity
  b : the doctrine that there is no deity.




:shrug:  I'd say that you are definitely not an atheist, Diploid.  I'm not, either.  In fact, my guess is that there is much more to all of this than meets the eye.  My disagreement with religious explanations lies in their implausibility, not in disbelief in all that is mystical.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5601821 - 05/07/06 05:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

So you are saying that you have been subjected to personal attacks because of your beliefs? Or that you inferred that the challenges of your beliefs were meant to belittle you?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Veritas]
    #5601833 - 05/07/06 05:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I'm not saying that they're belittling me, at least not specifically. They belittle my beliefs and others like me. I am not accusing anyone of breaking the forum rules, but I am saying that it is no better than the Christian on the street corner telling you that you're going to hell for what you believe.


--------------------


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Diploid]
    #5601848 - 05/07/06 05:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
My beliefs currently fall right smack dab in the middle of:

Quote:

agnostic: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god




pending any new discovery or argument that would change my mind.




I have no intention of pushing my ideas on to you, nor do I want to change your mind. But I would like to suggest that perhaps instead of approaching God as something to be known objectively, in the manner that one can know a cup or a piece of paper, one should approach God as something to be known unitively.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5601852 - 05/07/06 05:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

They belittle my beliefs

Dood, your beliefs are not you. Why is that so difficult?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Diploid]
    #5601860 - 05/07/06 05:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
They belittle my beliefs

Dood, your beliefs are not you. Why is that so difficult?



Where did I say they were?


--------------------


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5601865 - 05/07/06 05:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I know fully well the difference between questioning someone's beliefs and belittling them, and I've seen plenty of both happen in this forum.




--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5601871 - 05/07/06 05:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Well, personally, I don't care what Christians tell me is going to happen to me if I don't believe as they do. I don't choose my beliefs based upon supernatural blackmail. Since I do not believe in hell, or an all-powerful and vengeful deity, they might as well tell me that the Easter Bunny will break my kneecaps unless I change my sinful ways.

What I object to is the forcing of these beliefs upon others through censorship, educational "reform" tactics, killing doctors who perform abortions, morality legislation, discrimination, etc...etc...

Who the fuck do they think they are? I say they are free to worship in their church, garden, living room, street corner, wherever you like, but keep their nose and Bible and judgmental pious attitudes out of everyone else's bed, textbook, law book, employment practices, library, clinic, hospital & marriage.

I grew up being told I was going to Hell by strangers...it doesn't mean much to me anymore.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Diploid]
    #5601872 - 05/07/06 05:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"Them" referring to the beliefs in this context.


--------------------


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Veritas]
    #5601881 - 05/07/06 05:35 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
What I object to is the forcing of these beliefs upon others through censorship, educational "reform" tactics, killing doctors who perform abortions, morality legislation, discrimination, etc...etc...

Who the fuck do they think they are?  I say they are free to worship in their church, garden, living room, street corner, wherever you like, but keep their nose and Bible and judgmental pious attitudes out of everyone else's bed, textbook, law book, employment practices, library, clinic, hospital & marriage.




:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

:smile:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5601889 - 05/07/06 05:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"Them" referring to the beliefs in this context.

Exactly. Belittling beliefs IS NOT belittling believers. Attacking beliefs is part of philosophy. It's how good ideas are separated from bad ones.

If you can't handle that, MRP.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Diploid]
    #5601902 - 05/07/06 05:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

It has nothing to do with "handling it" or not. I can take the heat just fine, thanks. It all goes back to my original point: that many the "rationalists" here are more judgemental of others' ideas than most of the theists and mystics here. That's all I've been trying to say in this whole thread. It's just a statement of fact, nothing more.

Oh an btw, belittling anything, whether a person or an idea, is never productive, and simply shows a lack of maturity.


--------------------


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5601905 - 05/07/06 05:42 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

So if someone completely disagrees with your ideas, even belittles those ideas, that means that they are judgmental and close-minded??

*buzz* Fallacy alert!

Certainly it would be less judgmental to refrain from belittling Fundamentalist Christians who constantly cite the Bible as support for their beliefs. (Circular logic.) Yet what is the purpose of this forum? To challenge beliefs, to debate them, dissect them, etc...


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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Veritas]
    #5601909 - 05/07/06 05:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
So if someone completely disagrees with your ideas, even belittles those ideas, that means that they are judgmental and close-minded??



I didn't say that. You did.


--------------------


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5601915 - 05/07/06 05:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Acceptance quickly becomes a boring game. I'd rather have everyone take off all their clothes, grab their best weapons, and battle it out to the death... metaphorically. Lets see which "good news" can cut the deepest.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5601916 - 05/07/06 05:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I'm asking you for clarification. (Note the double question marks.)

You stated that those who had been attacking your beliefs, belittling your ideas, were judgmental and close-minded. (Yes, I saw that before your Ninja edit.) What leads you to make that judgment, aside from their practice of disagreeing with your beliefs?


Edited by Veritas (05/07/06 05:47 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5601917 - 05/07/06 05:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

many the "rationalists" here are more judgemental of others' ideas than most of the theists and mystics here

That's debatable, but in the end, being judgemental of ideas is why we're here, no? That some of us are more vigorous about it than others seems inevitable given eclectic mix of people we have going here.  :wink:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Diploid]
    #5601945 - 05/07/06 05:53 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Here's my point: It's one thing to question others' ideas, and another to belittle them(by which I mean their ideas). I welcome disagreement, but what I see here is people being treated like they're inferior for daring to think there's more to this world than science can explain. What I see is a secularist Inquisition.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5601949 - 05/07/06 05:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I'm not saying that they're belittling me, at least not specifically. They belittle my beliefs and others like me. I am not accusing anyone of breaking the forum rules, but I am saying that it is no better than the Christian on the street corner telling you that you're going to hell for what you believe.




I think there is. People can easily become afraid for their lives when told that they will burn in hell. This kind of stress is very bad for children especially. Telling someone their belief is stupid but without consequences is very different IMO.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5601951 - 05/07/06 05:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Inquiry es bueno.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Icelander]
    #5601954 - 05/07/06 05:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I think there is. People can easily become afraid for their lives when told that they will burn in hell. This kind of stress is very bad for children especially. Telling someone their belief is stupid but without consequences is very different IMO.



It may be different in effect, but the intention behind it is the same.


--------------------


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5601955 - 05/07/06 05:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

what I see here is people being treated like they're inferior

Correction:

what I see here is people's ideas being treated like they're inferior


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Diploid]
    #5601959 - 05/07/06 05:56 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

So when you trash "mystics," you're not really talking about the mystics? :confused:


--------------------


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5601960 - 05/07/06 05:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Mysticism.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Diploid]
    #5601963 - 05/07/06 05:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, if it is not possible to say (In YOUR opinion) "That is quality philosophy" or "that is poor philosophy," and dispute the ideas therein, what are we doing here? If the point is to be supportive of ALL ideas, no matter how inferior they may appear to us, why post them in a debate forum?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5601965 - 05/07/06 05:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I trash MYSTICISM, not MYSTICS.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Diploid]
    #5601969 - 05/07/06 05:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I trash MYSTICISM, not MYSTICS.



I seem to recall several posts to the contrary.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5601970 - 05/07/06 05:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Maybe, but I'm concerned with effects. I have been witness to them and that is why I am so quick to respond. With other topics I'm much more casual.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5601974 - 05/07/06 06:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You may have interpreted them that way, but that's not how they were meant. You are taking philosophical debate personally.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Diploid]
    #5601988 - 05/07/06 06:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

When you use the word "mystic" in the context I've seen you use it, I generally assume that it is meant to refer to people who hold mystical beliefs, as that is the generally accepted interpretation of such grammatical use. If you used the word "mysticism" when referring to mysticism, it might be a bit less confusing.


--------------------


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5601991 - 05/07/06 06:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Anyway, I'm sick of debating this. I'm not here to change the way anyone debates or what they believe. I was just here to point out a double-standard, and my point seems to have gone over most people's heads. I'm outta here.


--------------------


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5602002 - 05/07/06 06:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

:lol:  What a clever parting shot!

Situation:
Someone does not agree with your religious beliefs

Interpretation:
They are judgmental and close-minded

Situation:
We disagree with your claim of being personally attacked by atheists on this board.  We ask you to back up your claim with some evidence.  You back-pedal and say that you were not personally attacked, but the intention was to belittle your ideas.

Interpretation:
Your point went over our heads

Situation:
You claim a double-standard, yet cannot back up your claim.

Interpretation:
You are outta here.  :smirk:


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Posts: 19,274
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5602005 - 05/07/06 06:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

When you use the word "mystic" in the context I've seen you use it, I generally assume that it is meant to refer to people who hold mystical beliefs

When I participate in a debate about mysticism, mystics have to figure into the argument. This is a necessity of language. I'm only human and far from perfect, so I make mistakes, but I try to make it a point not to say something along the lines of "you're stupid for believing X", though I may say "it's stupid for mystics to hold X belief". There's a difference.

SS, you seem to be looking for some way to make this personal when it's not. That's your problem, not mine as I do not intend any debate here personally. I don't know what else I can tell ya.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Diploid]
    #5602010 - 05/07/06 06:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

A lot of times I think the arguments 'round these parts stem from semantics. When you say "mystics" you may mean one thing, but when the reader sees "mystics", he thinks something different. Same with many other terms. That's why I think it's really important to define terms that even have the potential for ambiguity.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Diploid]
    #5602018 - 05/07/06 06:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

To be honest, whether it's personal or not is irrelevant to my point. Is a Christian preacher being personal when he says that those who don't believe will be condemned to hell? All I'm saying is that you guys preach your point of view with the same kind of zeal, and the same "holier than thou" attitude. Now, I'm not here to stop you from doing that. I was just making an observation.


--------------------


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: dblaney]
    #5602021 - 05/07/06 06:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

That's why I think it's really important to define terms that even have the potential for ambiguity.

See, one of the core issues I hammer on constantly is that mystics don't have fixed definitions for anything. Ask 100 mystics what God is, and you'll get 100 different answers. Mystics are about things that can't be seen, have multiple definitions, no specific location, and have never been observed outside a mystic's head.

Given that general state of things, there is no way to settle on a definition for the word 'mystic' or anything at all to do with mysticism, and that's mysticism single biggest flaw.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

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Posts: 4,587
Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Diploid]
    #5602066 - 05/07/06 06:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"Mystic" is a broad grouping.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5602069 - 05/07/06 06:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

And, by broad, I'm not implying they're feminine. Although I'd have no problem with that. Honest.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5602073 - 05/07/06 06:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Faith-based? Subjectivist? What sort of group-title would be less inclusive?


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Diploid]
    #5602115 - 05/07/06 06:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

100 different mystics?

How do you define a mystic? When I use the word "mystic" I am thinking of intuitive spiritual types who have evolved beyond judgemental exotericism that is present in psychological spirituality. Other people seem to regard it is a one-word definition, referring to everyone from Pat Robertson to Benny Hinn as a "mystic".

Just look at the "mystics" here - most agree on most things spiritually philosophical (the perennial philosophy) despite the cultural divide between West and East.

You say 100 mystics will have 100 different ideas of God. How is this any different than 100 "somatics" who have 100 different ideas pertaining to existence?

We need to debate without letting our heads inflate. We have a group of intellectuals here who believe Existence precedes Consciousness, and another group of intellectuals here who believe Consciousness precedes Existence.

Really, no one is being dishonest or subversive in debate other than those who accuse others of being so.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Basilides]
    #5602127 - 05/07/06 06:50 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You say 100 mystics will have 100 different ideas of God. How is this any different than 100 "somatics" who have 100 different ideas pertaining to existence?

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Veritas]
    #5602139 - 05/07/06 06:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Gnostic, Hindu ascetic, Sufi, occultist, pantheist, etc


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5602154 - 05/07/06 06:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mys·ti·cism

1 : the experience of mystical union or direct communion with ultimate reality reported by mystics

2 : the belief that direct knowledge of God, spiritual truth, or ultimate reality can be attained through subjective experience (as intuition or insight)

3 a : vague speculation : a belief without sound basis b : a theory postulating the possibility of direct and intuitive acquisition of ineffable knowledge or power




How are any of the sub-groups you mentioned not included in the defition of mysticism, though? What is the purpose of being more specific, if the basic premise is the same throughout?


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Diploid]
    #5602160 - 05/07/06 07:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
That's why I think it's really important to define terms that even have the potential for ambiguity.

See, one of the core issues I hammer on constantly is that mystics don't have fixed definitions for anything. Ask 100 mystics what God is, and you'll get 100 different answers. Mystics are about things that can't be seen, have multiple definitions, no specific location, and have never been observed outside a mystic's head.

Given that general state of things, there is no way to settle on a definition for the word 'mystic' or anything at all to do with mysticism, and that's mysticism single biggest flaw.




you say those things have not been observed outside their heads, yet most religions (certainly christianity, judaism and islam) claim to be based on eye witnessed events and creatures.
So, you can't blaim, say, christians for starting a religion on something that is invisible, because the whole idea behind christianity is a god that interacts phisically with humans


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Veritas]
    #5602169 - 05/07/06 07:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

What is the purpose of being more specific

To help Diploid avoid confusion.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5602176 - 05/07/06 07:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

claim to be based on eye witnessed events and creatures.




:shrug:  I could make any number of outrageous claims, write them down, have others accept them on faith for centuries, but that would not make them more true or fact-based.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5602188 - 05/07/06 07:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
What is the purpose of being more specific

To help Diploid avoid confusion.




Was he confused? I believe he said that mystics were difficult to define, not confusing.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Veritas]
    #5602267 - 05/07/06 07:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The essense of confusion in its totality is the inability to define that which must be defined... or some shit.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5602276 - 05/07/06 07:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

What about that which refuses definition?  :grin:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Veritas]
    #5602419 - 05/07/06 08:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

We take it out back and shoot it in the head.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5602485 - 05/07/06 08:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

:lol:  To put it out of its' misery?


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Invisibledorkus
don't look back
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5603317 - 05/07/06 11:39 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Brilliant minds gathered. Isn't it beautiful? :grin: So energetic and inspired for battle.

Oh well, I'm stoned.

When I find myself feeling belittled, I might find it wise to take a close look at my deeper views on my views. Maybe my own rational mind struggles to integrate what I know I experienced? This would lead me into frustration when I found myself unable to describe even to myself what really happened, in coherent language.

The doctors prescription; do a lot of drugs that are very bad for you, stay up extremely late, induce a state of critical paranoia, let the rain fall. When your ego is a bleeding pulp on the floor you might pick it up and hang it losely over your shoulders. You are now officially humbled in the chemical barbeque oven, or fried as my friends would say. :grin: Enjoy it while it lasts.


ps; consider this doctor a patient patient.  :blush:


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: dorkus]
    #5604079 - 05/08/06 06:01 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Candy is good, sometimes, in excess, or often, or always, or
as
a thought.


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Invisiblefearfect
Registered: 01/15/04
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5604217 - 05/08/06 08:29 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

to the original post:
thats why i stopped posting in these forums


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: fearfect]
    #5604264 - 05/08/06 08:48 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

fearfect said:
to the original post:
thats why i stopped posting in these forums




Stopped, as in, the past tense?

Did you pay someone to log into your account and make this present post, then? :smirk:

What about the ten posts you made in here last week?

:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5604268 - 05/08/06 08:49 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You beat me to that one. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Diploid]
    #5604461 - 05/08/06 10:24 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

See, one of the core issues I hammer on constantly is that mystics don't have fixed definitions for anything. Ask 100 mystics what God is, and you'll get 100 different answers. Mystics are about things that can't be seen, have multiple definitions, no specific location, and have never been observed outside a mystic's head.




Last I checked, that would be called a subjectivist. We all have subjective opinions based on our personal experiences. So?

"Mystics" disagree with each other about a lot of things and even their own ideas of truth keep changing and expanding as more layers of reality are revealed to them.

A mystic to me has no source of authority they look to other then their own experiences, intuitive feelings/knowings and observations.

I don't understand why they get confused with people who believe in books on blind faith. I don't know what you would call someone who does other then someone who is afraid to think for them self or who is easy to manipulate because of that fear.

The fact that 100 mystics will give 100 different answers is because .............they think for themselves.

That's also why they were the ENEMY of the organized dogmatic church and still are.

If no one has noticed, the "mystics" and Fivepointer butt heads constantly as he tells us all we are evil. He called me a heretic and I take that as a compliment.

There are far too many beliefs to  list that other "mystics" here have that run contrary to my own understandings.  I know many labeled mystics here don't agree with a lot of my understandings. The only thing we seem to have in common is an understanding of the benefits of living in and with compassion when we can.


Call us aspiring compassionists if you want to lump us all into a common area of belief.


The otherwise disagreements alone, tell me that use of the word Mystic and mysticism here or anywhere is what is irrational. It doesn't mean ANYTHING, when no one can even agree on what it means or is.

You might as well call me an atheist too. I think the god of the bible is just a group of extra terrestrial beings messing around here.

I currently believe in changing states of energy. Consciousness is one of those states. What does that make me? An energyist? :tongue:

Obviously, there is a source of all of this energy making up solids, liquids, gases and the quantum field and who knows what else. I don't believe the Godman in anyones Bible is the source of IT. I think they, like we are products of IT.

I don't believe a being resembling any life form separate from anything else will ever be found behind ALL of this.

It looks like you have an atheist mystic here. :tongue: Goes to show how stupid that mystic label is. It means nothing definable is right.

However, there is open freedom to the undefinable and ever changing that is oh so cool which is why I don't mind being called it or using it.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Invisiblefearfect
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Icelander]
    #5605180 - 05/08/06 02:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

ya thats clever. i figured someone would bring it up. i came back to S&P after about a year off from this forum and made some topics. i realized and remembered that people don't change their minds. its like taking two rocks and banging them against each other.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: fearfect]
    #5605193 - 05/08/06 02:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Some do change their minds. I have changed mine over the years. It often is a relatively slow process.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: Will you accept ----- as your personal.... [Re: Icelander]
    #5606999 - 05/08/06 11:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Can you throw out 6 names to me?




just off the top of my head i can recall the following users describing themselves as atheist:

diploid
itstarssaddam
ravus
SkorpivoMusterion
bellylard
MikeOLogical
Redstorm

oops that's more than six.


and veritas, i'm well aware of the term agnostic which is why i only listed users who specifically described themselves as atheist, however i suggest you review skorpvio's thread on agnosticism vs atheism <a href="mhttp://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5266178/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1" target="_blank">mhttp://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5266178/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1</a> in which he explains why he is a proud atheist, both hard and soft and how agnosticism gives credit to beliefs which deserve none.




Ok, Ravus is no longer here so he doesn't count. I would like to hear from these folks and see how many actually are. Chime in here guys.




Deviate, you remembered me.  :cool:


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