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Offlineexclusive58
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Immediate Perception
    #5593114 - 05/05/06 07:41 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"To me, there is only one thing that counts: perception - which is to say, being able to perceive if a thing is true or fake in an immediate manner. It is this immediate perception of what is fake and of what is true that constitutes the essential factor - and not the intellect, with it's reasonings founded on it's skillfullness, it's knowledge, it's commitments.

It certainly happens to you from time to time to be able to see the truth of something - for example this truth which is that we absolutely mustn't belong to anything. That is what perception is: seeing the truth of something, immediately, with no analysis, no reasoning, without any of these things that the intellect creates that only differs perception. It is entirely different from intuition, a word that we use easily, too easily...

For me, nothing other than this direct perception counts - and not the reasonning, the calculation, the analysis. You have to be able to analyze; to reason, you must have a well done mind; but the mind that limits itself to reason and analysis is incapable of perceiving what truth is...

If you are in communion with yourself, you will know why you belong, why you have engaged yourself to something or someone; and if you go a little further, you will see the slavery, the amputation of liberty, the absence of human dignity that this engagement brings about. When you perceive this immediately, you are free; you have no efforts to make to be free. That is why perception is essential."

-J. Krishnamurti

:mushroom2:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Immediate Perception [Re: exclusive58]
    #5593208 - 05/05/06 08:35 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I think you are on to something real here. It takes skill developed through practice IMO.

This is the concept of "seeing" from the Carlos Castaneda books. Once developed it is the surest way to navigate the world, again IMO.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Immediate Perception [Re: Icelander]
    #5593220 - 05/05/06 08:40 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

i struggle with this concept, because the truth is subjective


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Immediate Perception [Re: kotik]
    #5593297 - 05/05/06 09:11 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Maybe not for seeing. You may be using different faculties altogether.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleRogues_Pierre
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Re: Immediate Perception [Re: Icelander]
    #5593360 - 05/05/06 09:43 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Wrong assumption.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Immediate Perception [Re: Rogues_Pierre]
    #5593364 - 05/05/06 09:43 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Enlighten me.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineOctavius
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Re: Immediate Perception [Re: exclusive58]
    #5593445 - 05/05/06 10:19 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The way we percieve things is definetly a high priority. When one tries to communicate with one another, you have to both be on the same page for things to be communicated correctly. If you both percieve the same object in mind, you are on the right track to understanding one another. Seeing truth is for sure the same as percieving the same, having to initially veiw the same object that one is trying to get across. Perception counts indeed.


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OfflineRavisT
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Re: Immediate Perception [Re: Icelander]
    #5593492 - 05/05/06 10:31 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Truth in essence is subjective to a certain extent ,what the individual believes to be true subconsciously is there truth,
but certain aspects of truth which can be perceived i believe are semi constant according to quanta etc. etc.but what is the subconscious mind?how does it perceive truth?are we all plugged into collective consciousness?or will you only learn to perceive 100% when you become enlightened beyond this existence?
I leave you with that as usually more questions than answerers...lol


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Love is all.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Immediate Perception [Re: RavisT]
    #5593817 - 05/05/06 12:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

i really want to describe things simply
but
i like to see what cannot be described
so
this is the paradox I am entangled with

anything i say is tinted with paradox


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Immediate Perception [Re: exclusive58]
    #5597005 - 05/06/06 05:56 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

..mediate cognition!?


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Immediate Perception [Re: Gomp]
    #5597014 - 05/06/06 06:08 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

exclusive, can u expand on this point a bit for me?

If you are in communion with yourself, you will know why you belong, why you have engaged yourself to something or someone; and if you go a little further, you will see the slavery, the amputation of liberty, the absence of human dignity that this engagement brings about. When you perceive this immediately, you are free; you have no efforts to make to be free. That is why perception is essential."


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Immediate Perception [Re: kotik]
    #5597020 - 05/06/06 06:15 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

kotik said:
i struggle with this concept, because the truth is subjective




Isn't it also then subjective that the truth is subjective?


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: Immediate Perception [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5597079 - 05/06/06 07:16 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

funny, I wrote an essay about this for a philosophy exam yesterday. The most important thing that philosophy teaches is that no matter where you go with philosophy, the world stays the same. Which is to say, concepts do not dictate reality. This is called a phenomenologist point of view or naturalism.

There is no truth but the present moment. Any laws or systems or even concepts you posit over this existence are artificial, they do not exist objectively.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Immediate Perception [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5597093 - 05/06/06 07:24 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

what is the subconscious mind? how does it perceive truth?




i believe the subconscious transcends truth, because that is all it operates on.

this topic always brings up very wishy/washy psuedoscientific arguments, and I like relating things to the physical world where things can be observed in stages, and then extrapolated.. the whole mico/macrocosm thing i guess you could say.

Your subconscious in the physical world takes care of your breathing, digestion and etc. to a certain level. In this context, if your subconscious were to accept lies, you would become sick. in fact.. that's an interesting theory lol.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Immediate Perception [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #5597321 - 05/06/06 09:49 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Wood asked;
Isn't it also then subjective that the truth is subjective?




I'm going to enjoy examining that from many angles, oldwood. Thanks! :cool:



Cowaba bonga dude,

Your essay sounds interesting. Can you post it?


Kotik,

do give some further thought to how feeding the subconscious certain ideas can help set up the conditions for physical dis-ease or il-ness or even heal it. Prime example would be how a hypnotist can give it ideas to make someone who is severally allergic to something like dog hair, not have any reaction to a dog while under hypnotic suggestion. Neat area to explore!

My understanding of the subconscious is that it doesn't know the difference between what we imagine with the minds eye and what we see with the physical eyes. It records it all just the same. It may be that the part of the brain that processes physical imagery seen with our eyes and mental imagery seen with the imagination is the same spot. I'd have to look into that part though.

The benefit of understanding or exploring this is really just related to healing. Consider reworking past memories of things maybe holding you back to be replayed with a positive out come. Your subconscious will think it all turned out well and at the subconscious level, it will effect your waking conscious differently which could change a lot for the better.

That's a little off topic-interesting topic to experiment on your own with though.

Nice post exclusive!

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Registered: 04/16/04
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Re: Immediate Perception [Re: fresh313]
    #5597964 - 05/06/06 03:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

fresh313 said:
exclusive, can u expand on this point a bit for me?

If you are in communion with yourself, you will know why you belong, why you have engaged yourself to something or someone; and if you go a little further, you will see the slavery, the amputation of liberty, the absence of human dignity that this engagement brings about. When you perceive this immediately, you are free; you have no efforts to make to be free. That is why perception is essential."




Sure, I can try. Let's say that I am completely engaged and devoted to a political party for example. I adhere to its ideas and I end up identifying myself to it, belonging to it. What is happening here is a mechanism of the ego, of the sense of "I", that fulfills its will to prolonge itself because it fears to die. In a way, the political party is a continuation of my thoughts and my feelings which create and accentuate the sense of self.

However, these thoughts and feelings which make up my ego and which I believe to be me, are really just traces of past experiences in my memory, they are only a result of the intellect. The ego is the conditioned mind.

Now, if I am able to perceive this for myself, without any intellectual effort but simply in an immediate and direct way, I will realize that all the energy I've been using to follow a method or a system or a discipline was very much a waste. I will realize that I've actually been using energy to reinforce an already large division in our society. I will realize that I've been working hard and with passion to create a sense of separation that goes against the unity of human consciousness and of the universe. And the ego is what sustains this sense of separation.

And when you are able to perceive this, you are free the moment you do so. This is what the magnificient simplicity and effortlessness of immediate perception implies.

Do you understand why this direct and timeless awareness is so important now? I find that when I try to translate Krishnamurti's thoughts in my own words, the result ends up being very tainted compared to his original profoundly true, pure and simple sayings.  :blush:


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Immediate Perception [Re: Icelander]
    #5598060 - 05/06/06 03:53 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
It takes skill developed through practice IMO.





I don't agree. Its actually something overly simple to do, and this is the reason why most people would reject it, because they don't see it as a definite plan, where you're told exactly what to do. What most people search for is a method or a system that they view as being positive and that they adhere to, in which they can find comfort. But that's just following, and, in the end, being exploited.

All it takes for this profound revolution is intelligent self-attention and investigation...now that I've said this, I'm tempted to say that this is what awareness really is. But in other words, its just a matter of being fully conscious of the structure which you have created about yourself and in which you are caught. We have to question and understand the significance of all our different vlaues, ideals, beliefs etc, and by doing so we will realize how they have come into existence. Doing so, one is able to perceive the prison in which one has been living, and how it has been created.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Immediate Perception [Re: exclusive58]
    #5598130 - 05/06/06 04:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

All it takes for this profound revolution is intelligent self-attention and investigation..

This is the practice I am talking about.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Immediate Perception [Re: Icelander]
    #5598169 - 05/06/06 04:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

We're probably on the same line then, but from what I understand, semantically speaking we are not.

When you say, "it takes practice", you mean practice in the sense of doing or performing something repeatedly in order to acquire or polish a skill. However, I believe that it is possible to perceive the truth of something in an immediate manner even if you've never done so before. IMO Immediate perception is rather a complete disassociation from past experience and memory, ie the ego.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Immediate Perception [Re: exclusive58]
    #5598177 - 05/06/06 04:48 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

What you say may be true for a few, under the right conditions. Yet the "practice" of paying attention after a lifetime of emotional distraction does take a sort of practice for most, in that some time is involved for attention to become a basic program.

My statement as stated was responsible for the confusion.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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