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OfflineYthanA
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Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer
    #5592245 - 05/04/06 11:34 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=674042006

BELIEVING that God created the universe in six days is a form of superstitious paganism, the Vatican astronomer Guy Consolmagno claimed yesterday.

Brother Consolmagno, who works in a Vatican observatory in Arizona and as curator of the Vatican meteorite collection in Italy, said a "destructive myth" had developed in modern society that religion and science were competing ideologies.

He described creationism, whose supporters want it taught in schools alongside evolution, as a "kind of paganism" because it harked back to the days of "nature gods" who were responsible for natural events.

Brother Consolmagno argued that the Christian God was a supernatural one, a belief that had led the clergy in the past to become involved in science to seek natural reasons for phenomena such as thunder and lightning, which had been previously attributed to vengeful gods. "Knowledge is dangerous, but so is ignorance. That's why science and religion need to talk to each other," he said.

"Religion needs science to keep it away from superstition and keep it close to reality, to protect it from creationism, which at the end of the day is a kind of paganism - it's turning God into a nature god. And science needs religion in order to have a conscience, to know that, just because something is possible, it may not be a good thing to do."

Brother Consolmagno, who was due to give a speech at the Glasgow Science Centre last night, entitled "Why the Pope has an Astronomer", said the idea of papal infallibility had been a "PR disaster". What it actually meant was that, on matters of faith, followers should accept "somebody has got to be the boss, the final authority".

"It's not like he has a magic power, that God whispers the truth in his ear," he said.

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer [Re: Ythan]
    #5592260 - 05/04/06 11:40 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

first of all, god didn't invent the universe. That was Lucifer's doing.

god only invented spirit. the rest was created by god's servants.

second of all, it took a hell of a lot longer than 6 days! Of course! It took billions of years! Lucifer also invented time.

In god's original creation, you need not travel, for you are already exactly where you need to be. You need not eat or drink, for you already have everything you need. You need not wait for anything because the second you want something you have it. Truly, duality is an illusion. When you are with god, you are one with the universe. god's original creation is a state of perpetual bliss. Mankind fell from this state and is now slowly climbing its way back up as we expand our consciousness and increase our capabilities and understanding.

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Invisibleblissedout
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Re: Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5592274 - 05/04/06 11:45 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Wow! That is an impressive view that you have there! How did you come to this conclusion? I am eager to hear. I too am a searcher and my soul yearns to find it's way.


--------------------



:murray:

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer [Re: blissedout]
    #5592297 - 05/04/06 11:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

meh, I've been bummin around the universe for awhile now :wink:

God sent me here along with many others because humanity is in grave danger of not making it.  Lucifer's influence is very strong here. 

By the way, there was never a Luciferian rebellion.  Lucifer has always been and will always be god's servant.  No one can rebel against god. 

But we can choose to exist without god.  he allows this.  unfortunately, existence without god is nothingness.  Sort of like being flushed down the toilet. 

god does not do harm, but he has people that do harm for him.  entities such as lucifer, whose job it is to tempt and test and judge whether or not a soul is ready to go home and recieve their personal stake in god's kingdom.

how do I know all this?  by what is within me :smile:

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Invisibleblissedout
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Re: Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5592318 - 05/05/06 12:00 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Your first post really stirred my spirit. No shit. It is not far off from other things that I already felt, but to read it is another thing. The whole hellfire and brimstone/demons ripping you apart constantly overe and over for all eternity didn't fit my views, but it will make you think about your options a little more deeply.

I have a good relationship with the provider of my spirit, but I stray every now and then. Tryig to do things my own way and disregarding my conscience. I'm trying, though. That's all I can do.


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:murray:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5593201 - 05/05/06 08:32 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
first of all, god didn't invent the universe.  That was Lucifer's doing. 

god only invented spirit.  the rest was created by god's servants. 

second of all, it took a hell of a lot longer than 6 days!  Of course!  It took billions of years!  Lucifer also invented time. 

In god's original creation, you need not travel, for you are already exactly where you need to be.  You need not eat or drink, for you already have everything you need.  You need not wait for anything because the second you want something you have it.  Truly, duality is an illusion.  When you are with god, you are one with the universe.  god's original creation is a state of perpetual bliss.  Mankind fell from this state and is now slowly climbing its way back up as we expand our consciousness and increase our capabilities and understanding.




:courtjester:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinekotik
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Re: Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer [Re: Icelander]
    #5593215 - 05/05/06 08:39 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

God sent me here along with many others because humanity is in grave danger of not making it.




God sent you to the shroomery?  :rolleyes:


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer [Re: kotik]
    #5593248 - 05/05/06 08:50 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

God sent you to the shroomery?




I can top that: God created the Shroomery and Ythan is in denial :rotfl:


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here

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OfflineRavisT
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Re: Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer [Re: Asante]
    #5593560 - 05/05/06 10:47 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

lol that is funny as hell forgive the pun!!
isn't todays common perception of Lucifer as the pagan god of love and fertility cant remember the name starts with b,but where does the hell concept come from? is it the writers of the book's idea of the worst place a human mind could ever conceive of existing???
Take heed when reading books of great wisdom and power for not every word can be perceived as truth...
peace.


--------------------
Love is all.

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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer [Re: Ythan]
    #5593672 - 05/05/06 11:15 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

love love love this thread. i love when christians accept observations about the world over obvious myths that were written without observation.


--------------------
Namaste

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer [Re: Ythan]
    #5594293 - 05/05/06 01:45 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Pope John Paul told the physicist Stephen Hawking during an audience in 1993 that, while almost all areas of scientific inquiry should be explored, physicists should not inquire into the Big Bang itself because "that is the work of God".

This took place after a speech presented by Hawking on that very subject. Hawking is quoted as saying after the audience:

"I was glad then that he [John Paul] did not know the subject of the talk I had just given at the conference — the possibility that space-time was finite but had no boundary, which means that it had no beginning, no moment of Creation."

I'm glad this new pope seems to not have his head up his ass as much as his predecessor.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (05/05/06 01:55 PM)

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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer [Re: Diploid]
    #5594327 - 05/05/06 01:50 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Pope John Paul told the physicist Stephen Hawking during an audience in 1993 that, while almost all areas of scientific inquiry should be explored, physicists should not inquire into the Big Bang itself because "that is the work of God".




No peeking behind the curtain to reveal The Mighty Oz.


--------------------
I'm Sporetacus!

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Offlinekotik
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Re: Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5594358 - 05/05/06 01:57 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

No peeking behind the curtain to reveal The Mighty Oz.



lol!


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer [Re: Ythan]
    #5594558 - 05/05/06 02:49 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Typical lies from the seat of the Antichrist.

Once again Rome shows its face.

The depths of wickedness and blasphemy never ceases to amaze.

All Christians should always take the opportunity to expose the lies of Catholicism.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer [Re: fivepointer]
    #5594563 - 05/05/06 02:51 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

You mean all Christians who believe the dogma that you ascribe to. Yuck.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer [Re: fivepointer]
    #5594566 - 05/05/06 02:51 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I'm glad the papacy is coming out against the joke that is fundamentalism.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer [Re: Silversoul]
    #5594618 - 05/05/06 03:10 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

maybe they started reading all those books they have locked away in their library. 

the next step would be to release those books to the public :wink:

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5594660 - 05/05/06 03:24 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
maybe they started reading all those books they have locked away in their library. 

the next step would be to release those books to the public :wink:



"This just in:  The vatican has been hiding UFOs since the 16th century."


--------------------

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer [Re: Silversoul]
    #5594704 - 05/05/06 03:37 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

much longer than that :smile:

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Offlinekotik
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Re: Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer [Re: Silversoul]
    #5594710 - 05/05/06 03:39 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

didn't John Paul say something in his last days regarding Heaven and Hell being states of mind?

as a matter of fact, he did.. heres a link:

http://www.lightparty.com/Spirituality/HeavenHell.html


Quote:

POPE JOHN PAUL 11 recently spoke to an audience in Rome about heaven and hell, challenging the traditional view that these are physical locales.

"More than a physical place, hell is the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God," he said. Also he added: "The images with which hell is presented to us by Sacred, *ripture must be correctly interpreted. They demonstrate the complete frustration and emptiness of a life without God." At the same time the pope "dismissed the notion of heaven as a 'physical place among the clouds,' adorned by pearly gates and harps" (The [Nashville] Tennessean, Aug. 1).

Likewise, "Heaven is not a locality but a divine state of Mind in which all the manifestations of Mind are harmonious and immortal, because sin is not there and man is found having no righteousness of his own, but in possession of 'the mind of the Lord,' as the Scripture says" (pg. 291). Heaven isnt only the absence of sin but the presence of pure goodness. We can experience heavenly harmony right now, on earth, through knowing God. Through expressing Godlike thoughts in doing good.




--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer [Re: Silversoul]
    #5594748 - 05/05/06 03:57 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

DoctorJ said:
maybe they started reading all those books they have locked away in their library. 

the next step would be to release those books to the public :wink:



"This just in:  The vatican has been hiding UFOs since the 16th century."




That's how angels travel, in flying chariots of fire


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer [Re: Diploid]
    #5595358 - 05/05/06 07:10 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

"I was glad then that he [John Paul] did not know the subject of the talk I had just given at the conference — the possibility that space-time was finite but had no boundary, which means that it had no beginning, no moment of Creation."





I think it is entirely possible to have a created universe with no beginning or end in space and time. If time is considered as a forth dimension of space, then the creator would only need to operate in five dimensions to create a universe infinite in four. An omnipotent God could conceivably operate in an infinite number of dimensions, so creation of a universe infinite in space and time would be no problem for him. the universe infinite in space and time would still be finite in the larger sense because it would be limited to four dimensions. A line infinite in length is still finite in width; a plane infinite in area is still finite in depth. One must merely think outside space/time to see how creation of a universe with no 'begining' is possible.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer [Re: shroomydan]
    #5595436 - 05/05/06 07:34 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

That makes no sense. By that reasoning, I could create a 2-dimentional universe because I'm 3-dimentional.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer [Re: Diploid]
    #5595455 - 05/05/06 07:39 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I think of creation not as something that happened at a single point in time, but rather as a constant process. Creation is the universe continuously emanating from God.


--------------------

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer [Re: Silversoul]
    #5595476 - 05/05/06 07:42 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Creation is the universe continuously emanating from Tao.

I agree! :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer [Re: Diploid]
    #5595485 - 05/05/06 07:44 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
That makes no sense. By that reasoning, I could create a 2-dimentional universe because I'm 3-dimentional.




ummmm... haven't you ever drawn a picture?

there's your 2dimensional universe

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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer [Re: Diploid]
    #5595561 - 05/05/06 08:11 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
That makes no sense. By that reasoning, I could create a 2-dimensional universe because I'm 3-dimensional.




If you were infinitely powerful in three dimensions, you could create an infinite two dimensional universe. Makes perfect sense.

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Offlinekotik
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Re: Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer [Re: shroomydan]
    #5595633 - 05/05/06 08:36 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

*if you developed your skill  :smile:


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer [Re: shroomydan]
    #5595801 - 05/05/06 09:20 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

My views:

Existence was never created; it cannot be created, for anything that would create it, must therefore exist. Creation is not getting something from nothing; creation is the act of rearranging elements that already exist, and this is a Universal law that applies for all conscious, sentient beings. Creation, like time or size, is within existence; existence is not within time, nor creation, nor size; all these are attributes and qualities within existence. Hence, existence is fundamentally creation-less, time-less, size-less. There is no “god” that caused existence, if by god one refers to a consciousness posed to be antecedent to reality, which only another contradiction for there can be no consciousness without existence; there can be no end without which there are no means to support it. Existence does not need a cause; causality presupposes existence, existence does not presuppose causality. Existence denotes the totality of all that exists, i.e., everything. But everything cannot be the effect of something else, because you cannot have something else in addition to everything. Hence, there can be no infinite regress of causes which is a contradiction. All existents within existence is not ruled by consciousness nor chance; but by the Law of Identity; which is a corollary of existence. Existence is all there is, and only existence exists; there is no where else to go.

As for other kinds of infinity: The universe [defined as everything that exists] cannot be spatially infinite, because in order for something to exist, it must be something specific, which means that it must have a specific size and shape, and therefore be limited in the extent of its dimensions. By the same token, the number of existents, however you define "existent," also cannot be infinite, because whatever the number is, it must be some specific number, however large.

Nor can the universe be temporally infinite, because time depends on motion, and motion involves a relationship between at least two objects. Therefore, since motion cannot apply to the universe as a whole, because nothing exists outside the universe, time does not apply to the universe as a whole. Therefore, the universe does not have a temporal duration, and cannot therefore be infinite in time. One could say that the universe is "eternal," if by "eternal," one simply means timeless or outside of time, which is the original meaning of the term.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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