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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Libertinage
    #5588194 - 05/03/06 10:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

From a fairly young age, around 15 or so, I've considered perversity to be a virtue. I was fired from my previous job for brazenly reading a pornographic magazine and am quite proud of that accomplishment. I've also had an entertaining adventure into sadism (which I will not discuss here).

I consider perversity and sexual deviation as a type of reactive nihilism against the herd's silly taboos. Ironically, I also think far too many people are unhealthily obsessed with sex. Sex is not something I value per se, rather I value sexual acts which violate some established taboo. Why? Simply because it is a rebellion against the herd mentality which seems to be deeply entrenched in the sexual arena. How many times does a man openly admit he likes a little prostate stimulation? Hardly ever, if at all. And, how many of you would think "gross" when you heard him admit it?

By the way Skorpie, nice sig.  :wink:


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5588250 - 05/03/06 10:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You bad boy you. :thumbup:

I like some light prostrate stimulation. Fortunately my girlfriend is more than willing to give it. :thumbup:  :laugh:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5588326 - 05/03/06 11:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

LOL!!!

I haven't cackled in a while.


Anyway, I agree - bust down those arbitrary, inane walls of silly taboos.

Come to think of it, I think the reason for the rise in the popularity of anal sex is precisely the same kind of progressive, rebelliousness that becomes released in sexuality - as with you and many others.

More power to the adventurous is all I have to say.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflinejustAkid
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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5588351 - 05/03/06 11:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic:

I value sexual acts which violate some established taboo. Why? Simply because it is a rebellion against the herd mentality which seems to be deeply entrenched in the sexual arena




Hypothetically, if there were no sexual act that was taboo, would that affect the types of sexual acts you perform? Do you enjoy the sexual acts because they are "perverted", or because you enjoy the acts themselves?


--------------------
Trust thyself.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5588404 - 05/03/06 11:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I'm not so sure that it's a virtue to shock people like that, but it sure is fun.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
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Re: Libertinage [Re: justAkid]
    #5588410 - 05/03/06 11:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, it would. Doing something forbidden is quite rewarding.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5588479 - 05/03/06 11:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The forbidden fruit always has its consequence.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Sinbad]
    #5588485 - 05/03/06 11:52 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Name something which has no consequences.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Silversoul]
    #5588547 - 05/04/06 12:09 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Shocking people may not be a virtue, but I think consciously rebelling against taboos is.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5588555 - 05/04/06 12:11 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Of course, all actions have there consequences, but the consequences for senselessly following your desire are usually greater than you can imagine.

Are you familiar with thw Adam and Eve story? Need i say any more?


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Sinbad]
    #5588567 - 05/04/06 12:15 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You misunderstand. I'm not preaching hedonism.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5588644 - 05/04/06 12:35 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Where did i say you were preaching headonism?  :confused: :lol:

In fact headonism is actually short for getyourheadonism :lol:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Sinbad]
    #5588657 - 05/04/06 12:39 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"senselessly following your desire"


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5588861 - 05/04/06 01:44 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Why? Simply because it is a rebellion against the herd mentality which seems to be deeply entrenched in the sexual arena. How many times does a man openly admit he likes a little prostate stimulation? Hardly ever, if at all. And, how many of you would think "gross" when you heard him admit it?




There's nothing new about that behind closed doors, and even talking about engaging in perverted or taboo sexual acts has been a norm amongst friends. Nothing shocking or rebellious there.

If you really want to rebel against the herd mentality in a gross, perverted or shocking manor, why not stick french fries up your nostrils or eat spaghetti without utensils the next time your out in a public restaurant or take a blow up doll out for dinner and a movie, or stand around in the middle of a mall or park just spanking your ass like you're loving it. :rofl2:

I mean, stuff like that is legal and yet I think would feel more liberating in a gross shocking or perverted way to you then doing in private and then talking about something people have always done.

It's 2006. Get original Mush!  :smirk:

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Libertinage [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5588912 - 05/04/06 02:05 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

eat spaghetti without utensils the next time your out in a public restaurant

Funny you mention that. I've seen someone do precisely that - and yes, with spaghetti. But it was a Hindu man, and he was feeding his son, who was somewhere around 7 or so years of age - well capable of feeding himself. Evidently, this family insisted on their arbitrary, religious traditions. It was pretty disturbing, to see a fairly matured child eat spaghetti out of someone's hands [with all fours on the floor], like an animal. Forbid his son should gain a few increments of confidence in skills of independence, hmm? Apparently they think it's best he learn the "virtue" of humility as early as possible. Sad, just sad. :shake:




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Libertinage [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5588920 - 05/04/06 02:07 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Nothing shocking or rebellious there.

Didn't you say you considered ignoring Skorpivo because of his signature????
I know some others here did.

Sexual Taboo's exist. Case in point: Seeing some black singers tit for two seconds offended this entire goddamn nation! Maybe YOU don't think its shocking or rebellious, but you are not everybody.

I think the majority of Americans would view me negatively if I told them I enjoy having my girlfriend tie me up and sodomize me. Shit, thats an arrestable offense in some places and the FCC would certianly censor the word "sodomize"! To a lot of men, being seen as a homosexual is one of the worst things that could happen to them.

And remember: Tits are illegal. You can show breast enlargement surgery on TV, as long as the nipple is blurred. :wink:


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Libertinage [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5589117 - 05/04/06 05:29 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
eat spaghetti without utensils the next time your out in a public restaurant

Funny you mention that. I've seen someone do precisely that - and yes, with spaghetti. But it was a Hindu man, and he was feeding his son, who was somewhere around 7 or so years of age - well capable of feeding himself. Evidently, this family insisted on their arbitrary, religious traditions. It was pretty disturbing, to see a fairly matured child eat spaghetti out of someone's hands [with all fours on the floor], like an animal. Forbid his son should gain a few increments of confidence in skills of independence, hmm? Apparently they think it's best he learn the "virtue" of humility as early as possible. Sad, just sad. :shake:







What does that have to do with Hinduism?


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5589192 - 05/04/06 07:06 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Shocking people may not be a virtue, but I think consciously rebelling against taboos is.



So it's a virtue to sleep with your sister?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Sinbad]
    #5589308 - 05/04/06 08:39 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
The forbidden fruit always has its consequence.




The voice of religion. DON'T DO THIS OR ELSE. :grin:

Everything is a learning experience and often the "consequence" is better than we imagined.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5589577 - 05/04/06 10:54 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Mush,

Tis true, I said that my 9 year old daughter comes around a lot when I am reading. For many reasons I don't want her seeing porn at this age. What if she told people I show it too her and child welfare ends up at my door? Yet she is well aware of that homosexuality is an attraction to the opposite sex and she is comfortable with that. I haven't repressed her regarding telling her it is wrong or sinful or gross.

In general, the research shows that children seeing images of sexual acts can have an effect on the healthy attitude they have towards their own sexuality when they mature into it. That's why I made the comment that I didn't want to warp her mind either. This isn't about my needs to free myself from social taboos, its about yours. I am perfectly okay with the ones I agree to go along with. If I don't agree, I don't go along.

Anyway, Skorp, I see your view and yet, aren't you doing the same thing others do when they shake their head in disapproval and disgust of homosexuality, or men enjoying hetero anal stimulation? Are not your comments based on your personal views of how people should act regarding feeding themselves in public?

American society has repressed themselves into a culture that eats such foods with utensils because we otherwise find it gross, uncivilized or offensive and just plain wrong to do.

The topic here was about rebelliously liberating yourself from repressive social taboos.

Those people from another culture were able to do that in public here without feeling embarrassed or ashamed. The bottom line is, they have liberated themselves to experiencing more freedom in our own culture then we have. That's what it's about.

I think I proved my suggestion being even better to you Mush if thats what you are after. Skorp had zero negative reaction to your posts declaration and yet look at his disapproving uproar regarding eating spaghetti with hands or feeding it to others with hands on all fours in public. Far more shocking and disapproved of by others in this repressive uptight society we live in in this day and age.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Libertinage [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5589656 - 05/04/06 11:21 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Skorp, I see your view and yet, aren't you doing the same thing others do when they shake their head in disapproval and disgust of homosexuality, or men enjoying hetero anal stimulation? Are not your comments based on your personal views of how people should act regarding feeding themselves in public?

Yes, I am essentially doing the same thing others do when they disapprove of other's actions - but not for the same content-specific reasons, nor in the same manner. Regardless of my personal disagreements, I still respected the traditions that the Hindu family [who was visiting a friend's stepmother who was a Hindu as well]. Are my comments are based on my own personal premises, conclusions and values? Most certamente, mademoiselle.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5589726 - 05/04/06 11:40 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I have a reply before this to your last one. I forgot to address this quote-


Quote:

Mush said:
Tits are illegal. You can show breast enlargement surgery on TV, as long as the nipple is blurred.




They are not illegal. Adults are free to buy porn, go to and work at strip clubs, WATCH porn channels being broadcasts on American cable and satellite television, and bare all at nudist colonies and beaches.

American adults are not as uptight as it may appear about sexuality. Most of the barring and shock reaction is related to when CHILDREN, are being over sexualized by modern society. Peoples young children watch football.

However, what the hell was the real difference anyway when Justine was singing about wanting to take her clothes off. Weren't their young kids listening asking mommy and daddy why he wants to do that?:lol:

Look at music lyrics in todays "pop", popular music compared to that of 30 years ago?  It's highly sexualized. Times are changing mush and I just don't think taboo sexuality is as shocking as it use to be, (save for when children are exposed to images of it). If you want to rebel and feel liberated from social oppression and get your rocks off on it, take your Girlfriend out to dinner and do exactly what skorp frowned on. :yesnod:

I bet you would get more shocked reaction for being just socially "wrong" by wearing your under ware on the outside of your jeans, or a sexy bra over your shirt (being a male) then you would by wearing a T-shirt that says, "I enjoy hetero anal stimulation".

People would call you more of a freak for the former then the later.

:lol: Seriously!

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlineporcupine
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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5590244 - 05/04/06 02:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
From a fairly young age, around 15 or so, I've considered perversity to be a virtue. I was fired from my previous job for brazenly reading a pornographic magazine and am quite proud of that accomplishment. I've also had an entertaining adventure into sadism (which I will not discuss here).

I consider perversity and sexual deviation as a type of reactive nihilism against the herd's silly taboos. Ironically, I also think far too many people are unhealthily obsessed with sex. Sex is not something I value per se, rather I value sexual acts which violate some established taboo. Why? Simply because it is a rebellion against the herd mentality which seems to be deeply entrenched in the sexual arena. How many times does a man openly admit he likes a little prostate stimulation? Hardly ever, if at all. And, how many of you would think "gross" when you heard him admit it?

By the way Skorpie, nice sig.  :wink:




so you value incest, child porn and beastiality? these are the only sexual acts which are truly taboo in our society.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Libertinage [Re: porcupine]
    #5590270 - 05/04/06 02:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

don't forget snuff.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
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Re: Libertinage [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5590358 - 05/04/06 02:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

So it's a virtue to sleep with your sister?

Yes.

Times are changing mush and I just don't think taboo sexuality is as shocking as it use to be

Timid heterosexual scared-to-do-anything-but-missionary-position sexuality isn't taboo. But, as a person who has been banned for posting a picture of a shemale in that pinnacle of enlightenment we call "the Pub", I can say with a reasonable amount of experience that most non-ordinary sexual activity is still quite taboo. Apparently, a picture of a dick is "offensive to most people in the same way scat pics are."

I shouldn't need to point out again how many times I've seen people give Skorpie shit because of his new signature. If homosexuality is taboo on the internet, the most progressive area of thought in the entire world, don't you think its probably still taboo in bovine America?

I wore neon green short-shorts for an entire year in Highschool gym class. Nobody gives a shit. No one is offended. At most, something like this is just entertaining. By contrast, when I've talked about something as simple as having a girl sit on my face, people have refused to continuing talking with me and walked away.

People would call you more of a freak for the former then the later.

I know from experience that this isn't so.

so you value incest, child porn and beastiality?

Ad augusta per angusta


Edited by MushmanTheManic (05/04/06 02:44 PM)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5590482 - 05/04/06 03:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Hey! You were mixing in porcupines response to you with your response to me. I don;t care to get into a debate over the morality and proposed virtues of incest, child porn and bestiality.

The bottom line is, if you need to feel liberated and find ways to feel that then go for it. I would just watch for what is illegal. Think of anything that most people would feel embarrassed or ashamed to do in public (thats legal) and go out there and do it everyday to get your rebel kicks! I was giving suggestions trying to help you out there! :wink:

If you find whats working for you to work then, enjoy your liberation.

Every time I open up publicly about (non missionary and no children or animals involved) sex, people just seem to get turned on, not turned off. :shrug:

It must be your delivery that is offensive. Maybe Americans are more opposed to crude deliveries then sexuality itself.:shrug:

Maybe its when its objectified it just becomes offensive to the soul that wants recognition in the acts. :shrug:


No doubt, other countries are less uptight. America has a come along way in the last few decades though. Give credit where its due.

It's your body and life. :thumbup: You're having a different experience with peoples shock meters then I have had it seems. I don't know how far I would have to go pushing the boundaries in public before someone said, "hey knock that off around here."

Here's where I sit looking at all of this right now. Offending people is easy because people are easily offended in general by some of the most casual and mundane of things.

Takes no great skill to do that. Where's the rush to what comes easy?

Regarding liberation, how far can you go "in public" allowing yourself to feel free and comfortable breaking social norms, that would make others feel embarrassed or ashamed, without care? That's when you know you accomplished some actual liberation from the BS.

If the only reason you do it is to shock and offend others then, they are your master and you're working slave labor for them. Maybe thats the point for you regarding some sort of perverted submissive S&M twist enjoying being bound up and tied by society having its way with you. :lol:

What if nothing you did or said garnered a shocking or disapproving reaction anymore? How would you get your kicks then?

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Libertinage [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5590552 - 05/04/06 03:52 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

the only reason you do it is to shock and offend others

No, it's more like:

-Scene 1, Act 1-

Ernest: "This is forbidden behavior. You cannot do this. This is wrong and unnatural."
Mushman: "Can't do this, eh? Why's that?"
Ernest: "This action offends the Lord. It is sinful and disgusting. The people will surely condemn you for such foul, despicable actions."
Mushman: "Everything is permissible. Audaces fortuna iuvat."
[Mushman buggers a goat.]
Mushman: "I wasn't allowed to do THAT, you say?"
Ernest: "Ah, ye wretched dissolute creature! Ah, the hellfires await thee!"
Mushman: "Blow it out yer ass, Ernest. There is no governor anywhere."


If a person, ideology, societal norm, etc tells me I cannot do something, I'll be very inclined to do it. :syringe:

What if nothing you did or said garnered a shocking or disapproving reaction anymore? How would you get your kicks then?

As long as "No Parking" signs exist, I will be satisfied.
"Can't park here, eh? I'll show you a thing or two!"


Edited by MushmanTheManic (05/04/06 03:56 PM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5590565 - 05/04/06 03:56 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
If a person, ideology, societal norm, etc tells me I cannot do something, I'll be very inclined to do it.



Am I to believe, then, that you are a mass murder, a thief, and a con artist? Sometimes taboos are there for a reason.


--------------------


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Silversoul]
    #5590569 - 05/04/06 03:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I'd lie if I told you I've never considered murdering someone.

I've stolen things before and, as an immoralist, don't consider it to be 'morally wrong', but I don't often steal. The benefits don't seem to outweigh the risks. Sometimes, rebellion is only enjoyable when you get away with it.


Edited by MushmanTheManic (05/04/06 04:06 PM)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5590616 - 05/04/06 04:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

So you believe you should be free to tie up parking spots that stores reserved for their handicapped customers and to tie up parking spots to keep the way open for a fire truck if one needs to get in close to hydrant? :confused:

Sounds to me like your need to feel liberated even has to come at the expense of others safety or health. If not that, it sounds like, risking imprisonment to feel free is what gets you off.:shrug: Some laws are simply human made because they are meant to keep us safe and even non god believing fearing people agree with them. Consider that.

I can't figure out exactly where you are coming from with all of this or what we are suppose to be talking about here. Maybe you just wanted to share with us what turns you on sexually. I dunno, but I would suspect you'll appreciate this joke-



this guy and his wife buy a sheep farm and after a little while he realizes that none of the sheep are getting pregnant.

having never worked with sheep before he seeks out advise from the vet! the vet suggests that if the sheep do not show signs of being pregnant then artificial insemination could be the the only option left! the guy asks the vet what the signs for the sheep being pregnant are and the vet says the sheep lay down alot especially in the morning!

so he looks out of his bedroom window at the sheep for months... and they are not lying down at all in the mornings..

he starts to think about artificial insemination being the only way.. the trouble is he has no idea what it is and does not want to appear stupid to the vet!

so after a long think he decides that it must mean he makes them pregnant!

so the next morning he loads them all into his landrover and takes them to a woods and shags them all once..

the next morning he wakes up looks out the window and there they are walking about happy as larry..

once again he gets out his landrover, loads up the sheep and shags them again.

the next morning the same thing happens he gets out of bed a bit bleary eyed and there they are all walking about...

with a fierce bout of determination he goes and gets his landrover. loads up the sheep. takes them to a woods and shags them all all day!

the next morning he cant even open both eyes let alone get out of bed to go to the window and look!
so he says to his wife

" darling, please tell me what the sheep are doing?"
she replies" they are up to something very odd!"
"what is it?" he replies
" well they are all getting into the landrover and there is a couple of them honking the horn......


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5590734 - 05/04/06 05:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Mushman. We, us, humans for the most part seem to be excessively afraid of all the energy in the sexual experience. Look at how religion handles it. FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR of life energy.  :frown:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5590767 - 05/04/06 05:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Mushman. We, us, humans for the most part seem to be excessively afraid of all the energy in the sexual experience. Look at how religion handles it. FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR of life energy.  :frown:





none of the religions ive studied have ever taugt me too fear sex.  :rolleyes:


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Deviate]
    #5590781 - 05/04/06 05:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Think again. Most religions either confine sex to marriage, or between man and woman only, or maintain that celebacy is a preferred state for spiritual growth.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5590785 - 05/04/06 05:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Think again. Most religions either confine sex to marriage, or between man and woman only, or maintain that celebacy is a preferred state for spiritual growth.



That is not fear. That is recognition and respect for the power of sex.


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5590790 - 05/04/06 05:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Think again. Most religions either confine sex to marriage, or between man and woman only, or maintain that celebacy is a preferred state for spiritual growth.




as paradigm said, that's not fear. and its most certainly not fear in capital letters 10 times.


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Deviate]
    #5590808 - 05/04/06 05:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

It's fear of sex and the desire of the priests to take the power from women.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5590817 - 05/04/06 05:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
It's fear of sex and the desire of the priests to take the power from women.



Then why have some of the most egalitarian religious groups(Gnostics, Shakers, etc.) practiced celibacy?


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Silversoul]
    #5590845 - 05/04/06 05:35 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Fear of sex.

Tantra is the only spiritual path that embraces sex as a way to self realization. And most want to call it a "Left hand path"  :tongue:


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5590853 - 05/04/06 05:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Fear of sex.

Tantra is the only spiritual path that embraces sex as a way to self realization. And most want to call it a "Left hand path"  :tongue:



You're talking out your ass, and obviously know nothing of tantra.  Tantra allows sex only insofar as one can avoid attachment to the act.  That's the point of tantra:  to participate in otherwise indulgent behavior while remaining unattached to the pleasure it brings.  It's a sort of chemotherapy for the soul.  It is precisely because tantra fears sexual desire that it uses it as an exercise in self-control.


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Silversoul]
    #5590922 - 05/04/06 06:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I'm talking about Western Tantra. There's more than eastern religion you know. It's relationship oriented and definately about pleasure and the joy and bliss of that pleasure. Tell me Mr. Out your ass. Ever been with a women who practices tantra seriously? I surely doubt it. I have and let me tell you spirit and pleasure were both part of the experience.

Again religion for the most part fears the power of natural sex. Look at the Catholic church and all the trouble they are having because of their repressive sexual practices. Very enlightened.

Somehow in the male nature it's become the fasion to deny the pleasures of the body and call that spiritual. IMO I don't see much real spirituality in spirituality these days. And it's interesting you would start to flame me when I meantion fear and sex. As Freud would say. Very interesting.


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5590949 - 05/04/06 06:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I'm talking about Western Tantra.



Ah, you mean the bastardized Hollywood version that's lost all its meaning, and is just used for old couples who've lost the spark in their relationship? Yes, I'm quite familiar with that. It has nothing whatsoever to do with real tantra.

Quote:

Somehow in the male nature it's become the fasion to deny the pleasures of the body and call that spiritual. IMO I don't see much real spirituality in spirituality these days. And it's interesting you would start to flame me when I meantion fear and sex. As Freud would say. Very interesting.



It's really quite simple. Sex, like food, drugs, or any other earthly pleasure, as an attachment to something material and impermanent. As the Buddha pointed out, such attachments are the cause of suffering. Spirituality is largely oriented towards transcending earthly bounds, and sexual desires are one of many that get in the way of that. That's not to say you can't be spiritual and have sex, but the pursuit of sexual gratification is undoubtedly an obstacle to spiritual enlightenment.


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Silversoul]
    #5590956 - 05/04/06 06:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Ah, you mean the bastardized, version that's lost all its meaning, and is just used for old couples who've lost the spark in their relationship? Yes, I'm quite familiar with that. It has nothing whatsoever to do with real tantra.

How ignorant elitist and egotistical. You definitely are full of yourself and your importance. My guess is you are hardly familiar with sex at all.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Silversoul]
    #5590963 - 05/04/06 06:13 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

but the pursuit of sexual gratification is undoubtedly an obstacle to spiritual enlightenment.

Prove it. I think you're speaking utter nonsense.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5590969 - 05/04/06 06:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Ah, you mean the bastardized, version that's lost all its meaning, and is just used for old couples who've lost the spark in their relationship? Yes, I'm quite familiar with that. It has nothing whatsoever to do with real tantra.

How ignorant elitist and egotistical. You definitely are full of yourself and your importance. My guess is you are hardly familiar with sex at all.



You're the one talking about how all religions hate sex because they fear it. That's at least as ignorant and egotistical as anything I've said in this thread. And I've had my share of sexual experiences. What you don't get is that I'm not anti-sex. I simply recognize how powerful a force sex is, and understand why it's not something to be taken lightly.


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Silversoul]
    #5590994 - 05/04/06 06:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I never said anything about taking anything lightly. Yet I don't take it more seriously then anything else in the world. It's all one to me and it's different paths for each and every one of us. You have no way of knowing what path a person could use to find their way to the source. That's always my complaint against religious dogma. If it works for you fine and dandy but shut up about what works or doesn't or is truth for everyone else. You don't have a clue about that so stop pretending you do. I've met as many Buddhists that believe buddhism is the only path to enlightenment (whatever that is) as Christians who tell you that you need to be saved or you're going to hell. Give it a rest.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Silversoul]
    #5590999 - 05/04/06 06:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You're the one talking about how all religions hate sex because they fear it.

In my post I said for the most part.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5591162 - 05/04/06 07:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I never said anything about taking anything lightly. Yet I don't take it more seriously then anything else in the world. It's all one to me and it's different paths for each and every one of us. You have no way of knowing what path a person could use to find their way to the source. That's always my complaint against religious dogma. If it works for you fine and dandy but shut up about what works or doesn't or is truth for everyone else. You don't have a clue about that so stop pretending you do. I've met as many Buddhists that believe buddhism is the only path to enlightenment (whatever that is) as Christians who tell you that you need to be saved or you're going to hell. Give it a rest.




buddhism affirms the validitiy of other religions so i'm wondering how that is possible? i'm not calling you a liar but id be interested to know how those buddhists justified their belief when it runs contrary to buddhist teaching.


Edited by Deviate (05/04/06 07:18 PM)


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Deviate]
    #5591252 - 05/04/06 07:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Your confusion stems from equating the followers of Buddhism with it's tenets. As Gandi said. " I like your Christ but I dislike your Christians".


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5591314 - 05/04/06 07:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Exclusivism and fundamentalism are probably extremely marginal in Buddhism


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Basilides]
    #5591452 - 05/04/06 08:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Well I live in the Pacific Northwest in a town that caters to eastern religions. We have buddhist temples (big ones) in sight of my house and others nearby. I know quite a few "buddhists". I got to tell you you couldn't prove your statement by me. The only people I have found more sure to condemn your ignorant beliefs are the Christians I grew up with in the Midwest (Baptist). I thought it was just the Western Buddhists in the US but I met some of the guys from Tibet and frankly they are a bunch of snobs IMO.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (05/04/06 08:07 PM)


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Silversoul]
    #5591723 - 05/04/06 09:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Tantra allows sex only insofar as one can avoid attachment to the act. That's the point of tantra: to participate in otherwise indulgent behavior while remaining unattached to the pleasure it brings. It's a sort of chemotherapy for the soul. It is precisely because tantra fears sexual desire that it uses it as an exercise in self-control.

"Instead of viewing pleasure and desire as something to be avoided at all costs, tantra recognizes the powerful energy aroused by our desires to be an indispensable resource for the spiritual path.... tantra seeks to transform every experience into the path of fulfilment.... desire is the fuel propelling us to our highest destination."
-- Lama Yeshe


Edited by MushmanTheManic (05/04/06 09:12 PM)


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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5591739 - 05/04/06 09:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Very nice. I think this is in alignment with the goals of Western Tantra. :thumbup:


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5591748 - 05/04/06 09:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

And whats all this nonsense I hear about seriousness!?


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Silversoul]
    #5591767 - 05/04/06 09:20 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I've had my share of sexual experiences.




No you haven't.


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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5591774 - 05/04/06 09:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
And whats all this nonsense I hear about seriousness!?




Sorry. :blush:


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: Libertinage [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5591794 - 05/04/06 09:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

So you believe you should be free to tie up parking spots that stores reserved for their handicapped customers and to tie up parking spots to keep the way open for a fire truck if one needs to get in close to hydrant?

Parking in front of a NO PARKING signs is something I do every day, but I rarely park in handicapped spaces. I think its important to understand the context of this behavior, though. I'm a delivery driver for Rosati's. The hydrant, or whatever, is usually only blocked for a couple of minutes. It's really more of a self satisfying symbolic gesture than anything else. It saves me time too.

If not that, it sounds like, risking imprisonment to feel free is what gets you off.

Freedom may be my highest virtue. I'd probably die for it.

I can't figure out exactly where you are coming from with all of this or what we are suppose to be talking about here.

I just wanted to tell everyone why I valued perversity.  :smile:

Maybe you just wanted to share with us what turns you on sexually.

That too.  :wink:


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Silversoul]
    #5592133 - 05/04/06 11:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Icelander, I owe you(and myself) an apology for earlier. My ego got in the way, and it obscured what I was trying to say.

Sex, like anything, should be done in moderation. It's not that sexual desires are bad. Rather, letting those desires control you is what needs to be avoided. Celibacy is a practice for those who seek the utmost self-discipline(as people seeking enlightenment often do). To dismiss it as simply fearing sex is no better than my comment about Western Tantra.


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Silversoul]
    #5592206 - 05/04/06 11:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks. I never said that sex should be an addiction. (that's what you're getting at I think) But look at the taboos around sex. So much guilt and shame for having these desires. I grew up in the Baptist church and they did their best to make me guilty for all my natural urges, and which only the vows of marriage could provide some slight relief from that sin.

Now there is a lot of energy in sex. When you feel guilt or shame around your sexual being, you need to sit down hard on that energy because it wants to flow and it's no joke, there's some real strong life/spiritual energy there.

I'm going to stand by my opinion that there is a lot of fear going on in calling sex a hindrance to the spiritual path. IMO nothing could be further from the truth and as anyone who has worked with there sexuality can tell you " you have to get into it, before you get out of it."


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5592328 - 05/05/06 12:03 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I won't deny that many religious groups do have unhealthy attitudes about sex(as do many secular people who rebel against those religious attitudes). But believing that sexual desires should be kept under control is not the same as fearing them. It's an issue of self-discipline. Being a slave to your desires tends to get you in trouble. The goal is to be "master of your domain," as Seinfeld so eloquently put it.

As for the guilt/shame, it's obviously not something you should feel every time you have a sexual desire, but it is healthy to feel it when you have let your desires get the best of you, just as I felt guilty earlier for having let my ego get the best of me. One should strive as much as possible to maintain control over themselves.


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5592344 - 05/05/06 12:09 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks. I never said that sex should be an addiction. (that's what you're getting at I think) But look at the taboos around sex. So much guilt and shame for having these desires. I grew up in the Baptist church and they did their best to make me guilty for all my natural urges, and which only the vows of marriage could provide some slight relief from that sin.

it seems like you're letting your own bad experience with religion growing up color your view of all religion.

Now there is a lot of energy in sex. When you feel guilt or shame around your sexual being, you need to sit down hard on that energy because it wants to flow and it's no joke, there's some real strong life/spiritual energy there.

i agree and this why is its important to use this energy in a beneficial way.

I'm going to stand by my opinion that there is a lot of fear going on in calling sex a hindrance to the spiritual path. IMO nothing could be further from the truth and as anyone who has worked with there sexuality can tell you " you have to get into it, before you get out of it."

as with most things, there are two sides to this coin. on the positive side i would agree that sex, under the right circumstances, can be a tremendous catylist toward spiritual growth. i've experienced an incredible sense of connectedless and an awareness of the onness of all life through sex. i would venture to say that sex is one of the moust powerful methods of temporarily raising consciousness we have. on the negative side, the sexual desire is a HUGE source of attatchment, desire and craving and is often one of the most major obstacles a person must overcome in order to rise above the carnal mind. i know this from my own experiences of desiring to have sex when i couldn't, years of masturbation addiction as a young teenager and now allowing it to distract me and continually draw my awareness away from the present moment. i believe that both celibacy and the intelligent use of sexual intercourse are both perfectly acceptable decisions for someone who considers themself a spiritual seeker. however, i dont see all restrictions on what is considered acceptable sexual conduct as being fear based. some of them are based on the desire to use the sexual energy in a way which is most beneficial to spiritual growth


Edited by Deviate (05/05/06 12:14 AM)


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Silversoul]
    #5593196 - 05/05/06 08:29 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

As for the guilt/shame, it's obviously not something you should feel every time you have a sexual desire, but it is healthy to feel it when you have let your desires get the best of you, just as I felt guilty earlier for having let my ego get the best of me. One should strive as much as possible to maintain control over themselves.

I very much disagree with this. In this case guilt and shame have no useful purpose other than to repress the individual.

If you let your desires get the best of you (whatever that means) oh well, look to the result. Did that serve you and make you really happy and satisfied? If not then you can do it differently next time. No need for self recrimination, that will just make you not want to try to change IMO. You are "God" and sex is "God" IMO, so no need to feel ashamed of that. Your statement is almost verbatum what the Baptist church I grew up with preaches.

Again the need to "control" oneself seems fear driven IMO. Religion seems fear driven for the most part as well.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5594112 - 05/05/06 01:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

''
I very much disagree with this. In this case guilt and shame have no useful purpose other than to repress the individual.

If you let your desires get the best of you (whatever that means) oh well, look to the result. Did that serve you and make you really happy and satisfied? If not then you can do it differently next time. No need for self recrimination, that will just make you not want to try to change IMO. ''

what bases do you have for this statement? guilt and shame are powerful motivating forces to bring about positive change in some people.


You are "God" and sex is "God" IMO, so no need to feel ashamed of that. Your statement is almost verbatum what the Baptist church I grew up with preaches.

Again the need to "control" oneself seems fear driven IMO. Religion seems fear driven for the most part as well.



it seems more like anything you don't agree with is ''fear driven''. is going to work ''fear driven'' because you wish to avoid poverty? is every marriage and relationship ''fear driven'' because people fear being alone? by your logic, virtually all human behavior is fear driven. so whats wrong with that? i mean i would be just as justified in claiming sex is fear driven because people fear celibacy.


Edited by Deviate (05/05/06 01:07 PM)


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Deviate]
    #5594153 - 05/05/06 01:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Claim whatever you want. You're entitled to your opinion.

I think we live as a repressive fear driven species for the most part, and for whatever reason I'm not sure, but I have my guesses.

So yes I guess I do believe most human behavior is fear based and what's wrong with that IMO is it's out of balance. If we ever evolve to a point where self acceptance and self love are the norm, things might be very different. I doubt society would be structured around the same competitive drives and warfares that we seem to feel we need to be safe now. But I'm not holding my breath. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (05/05/06 01:18 PM)


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5594174 - 05/05/06 01:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

People fast from time to time to become closer to God. Do they fear the sandwich?


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5594188 - 05/05/06 01:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


Claim whatever you want. You're entitled to your opinion.

I think we live as a repressive fear driven species for the most part, and for whatever reason I'm not sure, but I have my guesses.

So yes I guess I do believe most human behavior is fear based and what's wrong with that IMO is it's out of balance. If we ever evolve to a point where self acceptance and self love are the norm, things might be very different. I doubt society would be structured around the same competitive drives and warfares that we seem to feel we need to be safe now. But I'm not holding my breath.


i am in total agreement with that. my point was that just as some people are taught to fear sex, other people are taught to fear not having sex. there is just as much guilt or shame felt by those who perceive themselves as being ''losers'' because they don't get as many girls as their peers as is there is by people who feel ashamed of their sexual desires.


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Basilides]
    #5594194 - 05/05/06 01:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Ever know a woman who is compulsively watching her weight? I've known several and it's wild. They are constantly putting themselves down around food issues. They can't stop thinking about food and feel guilty about it constantly. Yes, they fear the sandwich. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5594267 - 05/05/06 01:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

yes i've known a woman like that, it dives me absolutely crazy. its such a self centered way of thinking in my opinion, considering no one else in the world cares if they gain an ounce but they act like so much is riding on it. anyway, to give you an example of how i think shame and guilt can be beneficial, ive found that after doing really bad on a test, that feeling of shame is the most powerful force that drives me to do better. also i tend to do much better on papers than multiple choice exams mainly because i would be too ashamed to turn in half a paper, yet its very easy to study only half the material for a multiple choice exam. its so much more impersona. of course, i'd rather not have it be this way, id rather have the motivation to do all my work without any fear being necessary but because, despite my efforts, ive not been able to reach that point, i find that fear of shame is one of my greatest motivators.


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5594281 - 05/05/06 01:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Ever know a woman who is compulsively watching her weight? I've known several and it's wild. They are constantly putting themselves down around food issues. They can't stop thinking about food and feel guilty about it constantly. Yes, they fear the sandwich. :grin:




That goes right back to sex, ironically.

Other people diet for health reasons, but specifically I am talking about fasting for spiritual/aesthetic reasons.

Whether it is food, sex, or monetary wealth - there is nothing special about these things other than that they lubricate the Wheel of Life. Over indulgence in anything is never good thing, and more often than not it reaps misfortunate, wether it is a weight of 350 lbs, a sexually transmitted disease, or severe attachment to wealth (people kill themselves and others all the time over money).

Sex, Food, and Wealth are to the likeness of the pig in the Wheel of Life. The wisdom is in transcending, not denying. Obviously every human body needs food to survive, a natural sex drive to satisfy, and a bit of money to put a roof over their heads and clothes on their backs..

It's about avoiding over-indulgence.


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Basilides]
    #5594312 - 05/05/06 01:48 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

It's about avoiding over-indulgence.

I thought we'd all agreed to this?


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5594320 - 05/05/06 01:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
From a fairly young age, around 15 or so, I've considered perversity to be a virtue. I was fired from my previous job for brazenly reading a pornographic magazine and am quite proud of that accomplishment. I've also had an entertaining adventure into sadism (which I will not discuss here).

I consider perversity and sexual deviation as a type of reactive nihilism against the herd's silly taboos. Ironically, I also think far too many people are unhealthily obsessed with sex. Sex is not something I value per se, rather I value sexual acts which violate some established taboo. Why? Simply because it is a rebellion against the herd mentality which seems to be deeply entrenched in the sexual arena. How many times does a man openly admit he likes a little prostate stimulation? Hardly ever, if at all. And, how many of you would think "gross" when you heard him admit it?

By the way Skorpie, nice sig.  :wink:




There are many taboos in the society, sexuality is the least chalenging one to brake. Be a man and try to shock people by rape or murder


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5594326 - 05/05/06 01:50 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I don't know, I'm just chiming in here, lol


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Basilides]
    #5594367 - 05/05/06 01:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
I don't know, I'm just chiming in here, lol




Oh a trouble maker. :rolleyes: :grin:


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Libertinage [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5594461 - 05/05/06 02:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

No.


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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5594469 - 05/05/06 02:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
No.




Too weak for that?


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Re: Libertinage [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5594477 - 05/05/06 02:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Define weak.


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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5594483 - 05/05/06 02:30 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Define weak.




Not able


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Re: Libertinage [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5594487 - 05/05/06 02:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Nope.


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Deviate]
    #5594491 - 05/05/06 02:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

i find that fear of shame is one of my greatest motivators.

So there's that fear word again. Too bad, as you say, you need this for motivation but I think it is part of our basic program at this time in our evolution to some degree for most of us.

It may not always be so. Still, I'm not holding my breath.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5594513 - 05/05/06 02:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Nope.




So, you are able then?

Then what's stopping you? Social sanctions? You get them with braking sexual taboos too. Well maybe you get jail, but many don't get caught.

My point is, taboo against murder is the same kind of taboo as the taboo from hedonistic sex.
Both are either just social taboos which can be broken, or moral rules, depending on how you look at it.

I was just wondering, since you see virtue in braking taboos, why does this virtue apply only to some selected taboos..


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5594521 - 05/05/06 02:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
i find that fear of shame is one of my greatest motivators.

So there's that fear word again. Too bad, as you say, you need this for motivation but I think it is part of our basic program at this time in our evolution to some degree for most of us.

It may not always be so. Still, I'm not holding my breath.




I rarely find fear as a motivator. Usually fear causes the oposite effect in me: i just crawl into some hole and become paralised, or simply give it up.
If you threaten me by being fired, I'd rather give up and get fired right away then live in fear. I hate fear.


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Re: Libertinage [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5594525 - 05/05/06 02:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I don't think the risks outweigh the benefit.


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5594540 - 05/05/06 02:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
i find that fear of shame is one of my greatest motivators.

So there's that fear word again. Too bad, as you say, you need this for motivation but I think it is part of our basic program at this time in our evolution to some degree for most of us.

It may not always be so. Still, I'm not holding my breath.



Do you not see your own hypocrisy? Before, you denied that there was a need to control our emotions, and here you are saying that we should not feel the emotions of guilt, shame, or fear. Which is it?


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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5594541 - 05/05/06 02:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
I don't think the risks outweigh the benefit.




You in that case, your attitude proves the importance of opression in society. Freighten them and they'll behave


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Re: Libertinage [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5594545 - 05/05/06 02:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
i find that fear of shame is one of my greatest motivators.

So there's that fear word again. Too bad, as you say, you need this for motivation but I think it is part of our basic program at this time in our evolution to some degree for most of us.

It may not always be so. Still, I'm not holding my breath.




I rarely find fear as a motivator. Usually fear causes the oposite effect in me: i just crawl into some hole and become paralised, or simply give it up.
If you threaten me by being fired, I'd rather give up and get fired right away then live in fear. I hate fear.




Good point. Yet fear becomes a comfortable feeling for many in the sense that it is all they know. Change is very difficult for most of us humans. We would rather stay with the known then risk the unknown, even if the known is miserable. Oh my God! What if I risk it and it's even worse.

Other animals exibit this trait as in an animal who has been long caged. When the cage is left open they will not leave.


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Libertinage [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5594574 - 05/05/06 02:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

If by "oppression" you mean fear of retribution, then I agree.


Edited by MushmanTheManic (05/05/06 02:58 PM)


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Basilides]
    #5594587 - 05/05/06 03:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

People fast from time to time to become closer to God. Do they fear the sandwich?

They fear themselves.


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5594613 - 05/05/06 03:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Good point. Yet fear becomes a comfortable feeling for many in the sense that it is all they know. Change is very difficult for most of us humans. We would rather stay with the known then risk the unknown, even if the known is miserable.




Erich Fromm examined this masochistic tendency very well in his book Escape from Freedom.


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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5594617 - 05/05/06 03:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
If by "oppression" you mean fear of retribution, then I agree.




By opression I mean current methods society uses to control: police, SWATs, military, courts, jails etc.

If fear is stopping you from braking the taboo of murder, then
the only way to stop such a thinker is to threaten him with jail.


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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5594623 - 05/05/06 03:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
People fast from time to time to become closer to God. Do they fear the sandwich?

They fear themselves.




did you ever try fasting?


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Bring before me what is mine


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Re: Libertinage [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5594627 - 05/05/06 03:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I have fasted many times. Once for 19 days. I never (since childhood) felt better or more awake and joyfull.


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5594662 - 05/05/06 03:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I have fasted many times. Once for 19 days. I never (since childhood) felt better or more awake and joyfull.




Well just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it does not exist as a human reaction.
Fasting is often tied to christianity, belief in god etc. So I guess you wouldn't feel much by fasting exept hunger, because you are differently oriented spiritually.


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Re: Libertinage [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5594676 - 05/05/06 03:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Even if I could be certain there would be no negative consequences from murdering a person, I'm still not sure whether I would do it. Unless I really despised the person, but I usually don't despise people, and if I do, it's usually not for very long.

Sexual taboos don't make sense to me because they don't harm anyone. They're just arbitrary social stigmas. What is logic in viewing something which does not hurt anyone as wrong or disgusting?

I love people who are afraid of seeing a penis. I can't help but laugh. (Same goes for guys who go into the bathroom stalls to change at the gym.) It is a sexual organ, some flesh that fills with blood and shoots out sperm, whats the big deal? Far too much mysticism surrounds the lingam and the yoni.

Murder on the other hand causes a tremendous amount of suffering and I'm not sure I could drain enough of my empathy to kill someone just for the hell of it.


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Re: Libertinage [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5594682 - 05/05/06 03:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I have once, back when I was a christian.
Why does it matter?


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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5594688 - 05/05/06 03:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Sexual taboos don't make sense to me because they don't harm anyone.



What about rape or pedophilia?


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Re: Libertinage [Re: Silversoul]
    #5594701 - 05/05/06 03:35 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Those are harmful too. Although, I think our society's response to them makes them even more damaging.


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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5594717 - 05/05/06 03:42 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Even if I could be certain there would be no negative consequences from murdering a person, I'm still not sure whether I would do it. Unless I really despised the person, but I usually don't despise people, and if I do, it's usually not for very long.

Sexual taboos don't make sense to me because they don't harm anyone. They're just arbitrary social stigmas. What is logic in viewing something which does not hurt anyone as wrong or disgusting?

I love people who are afraid of seeing a penis. I can't help but laugh. (Same goes for guys who go into the bathroom stalls to change at the gym.) It is a sexual organ, some flesh that fills with blood and shoots out sperm, whats the big deal? Far too much mysticism surrounds the lingam and the yoni.

Murder on the other hand causes a tremendous amount of suffering and I'm not sure I could drain enough of my empathy to kill someone just for the hell of it.




Some people equally suffer because of sex. But that's not the point here...

The point is, we are back to some kind of taboo cathegory: harm,
you are waving around with that word as if it is an imperative, yet
harm is yet another taboo.
Can you prove harm is to be avoided?

Also, you speak of empathy, it's not empathy when you only feel it for those people with the same kind of fears as you have.
Empathy is supose to transcend the reason of pain. When your kid cries because he didn't get a toy he wanted, do you laught at him because you never cry because of such things, or do you feel for him even though you don't care for toys.

So when it comes to murder, you feel empathy because you yourself are afraid of being murdered, but when it comes to being afraid of seeing a penis, you feel no empathy because you yourself don't have such problems.

Such a fear is silly yes, but that doesn't matter, it exists in some people, and if you aren't there to help them with that fear, you should not provoke it in the first place.

How would you feel if someone provoked YOUR fear, like, I don't know insert your greatest fear.


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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5594727 - 05/05/06 03:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Those are harmful too. Although, I think our society's response to them makes them even more damaging.




again you go with the harm thing..

you see harm is YOUR taboo, you are not free of taboos


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Re: Libertinage [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5594759 - 05/05/06 04:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I never said harm should be avoided or was inherently wrong, but I also cannot fathom how a person could rationalize something as being wrong which doesn't hurt anyone. It's based on religious premises through and through. "These areas are forbidden because God said so. Sensuality is evil."
Religious thought doesn't get much respect from me.

it's not empathy when you only feel it for those people with the same kind of fears as you have

Not according to this definition: Direct identification with, understanding of, and vicarious experience of another person's situation, feelings, and motives.
Sorry, but I can't understand these people's penis prejudices.

you feel empathy because you yourself are afraid of being murdered

No, it's because I've witnessed the kind of suffering that death causes.

when it comes to being afraid of seeing a penis, you feel no empathy because you yourself don't have such problems.

Right, seeing a penis will cause these people so much suffering.  :rolleyes:


Edited by MushmanTheManic (05/05/06 04:12 PM)


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Re: Libertinage [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5594763 - 05/05/06 04:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

He asked if rape and pedophilia were harmful... I said they were.
What does this have to do with taboos?


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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5594782 - 05/05/06 04:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
I never said harm should be avoided or was inherently wrong, but I also cannot fathom how a person could rationalize something as being wrong which doesn't hurt anyone.




Most of the things which are considered immoral are tied to animal behaviour. Since civilisation is a community which has abandoned the ways of the animals, so is morality shaped accoarding to that.

-Killing without remorse is the way of the animals
-Sex with anything that can recieve a penis (regardless of age) is animalistic also
-Sex without emotions of love and feeling of intimacy is also the way of animals
-Killing of infants is the way of the animals

etc. etc.

All of the above can be summed to one question:
Why do we avoid being like mindless animals?
Well civilisation is built on supression of the animal inside us.
If all people followed all their animal instincts, society of earth would fall to ashes within one month. And that is nobodies interest.


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Re: Libertinage [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5594845 - 05/05/06 04:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Yet she is well aware of that homosexuality is an attraction to the opposite sex and she is comfortable with that. I haven't repressed her regarding telling her it is wrong or sinful or gross.




:lol:

If she is well aware of that, then I think you have raised her a little backwards. :wink:

:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Libertinage [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5594849 - 05/05/06 04:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Freudian slip perhaps.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Libertinage [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5594893 - 05/05/06 05:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Yet she is well aware of that homosexuality is an attraction to the opposite sex and she is comfortable with that. I haven't repressed her regarding telling her it is wrong or sinful or gross.




:lol:

If she is well aware of that, then I think you have raised her a little backwards. :wink:

:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




:lol:

:foreheadslap:

You know what I meant.  :tongue:

:seeya:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Libertinage [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5599348 - 05/06/06 11:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

-Killing without remorse is the way of the Romans
-Sex with anything that can recieve a penis (regardless of age) is Romish also
-Sex without emotions of love and feeling of intimacy is also the way of Romans
-Killing of infants is the way of the Romans (and countless other societies)


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5600187 - 05/07/06 05:10 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
-Killing without remorse is the way of the Romans
-Sex with anything that can recieve a penis (regardless of age) is Romish also
-Sex without emotions of love and feeling of intimacy is also the way of Romans
-Killing of infants is the way of the Romans (and countless other societies)




Yes, well, Romans, Nazis, Mongols etc. are certainly low points of human society


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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