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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Libertinage [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5594525 - 05/05/06 02:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I don't think the risks outweigh the benefit.


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5594540 - 05/05/06 02:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
i find that fear of shame is one of my greatest motivators.

So there's that fear word again. Too bad, as you say, you need this for motivation but I think it is part of our basic program at this time in our evolution to some degree for most of us.

It may not always be so. Still, I'm not holding my breath.



Do you not see your own hypocrisy? Before, you denied that there was a need to control our emotions, and here you are saying that we should not feel the emotions of guilt, shame, or fear. Which is it?


--------------------


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Posts: 4,033
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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5594541 - 05/05/06 02:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
I don't think the risks outweigh the benefit.




You in that case, your attitude proves the importance of opression in society. Freighten them and they'll behave


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Libertinage [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5594545 - 05/05/06 02:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
i find that fear of shame is one of my greatest motivators.

So there's that fear word again. Too bad, as you say, you need this for motivation but I think it is part of our basic program at this time in our evolution to some degree for most of us.

It may not always be so. Still, I'm not holding my breath.




I rarely find fear as a motivator. Usually fear causes the oposite effect in me: i just crawl into some hole and become paralised, or simply give it up.
If you threaten me by being fired, I'd rather give up and get fired right away then live in fear. I hate fear.




Good point. Yet fear becomes a comfortable feeling for many in the sense that it is all they know. Change is very difficult for most of us humans. We would rather stay with the known then risk the unknown, even if the known is miserable. Oh my God! What if I risk it and it's even worse.

Other animals exibit this trait as in an animal who has been long caged. When the cage is left open they will not leave.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Libertinage [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5594574 - 05/05/06 02:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

If by "oppression" you mean fear of retribution, then I agree.


Edited by MushmanTheManic (05/05/06 02:58 PM)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Libertinage [Re: Basilides]
    #5594587 - 05/05/06 03:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

People fast from time to time to become closer to God. Do they fear the sandwich?

They fear themselves.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5594613 - 05/05/06 03:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Good point. Yet fear becomes a comfortable feeling for many in the sense that it is all they know. Change is very difficult for most of us humans. We would rather stay with the known then risk the unknown, even if the known is miserable.




Erich Fromm examined this masochistic tendency very well in his book Escape from Freedom.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
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Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5594617 - 05/05/06 03:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
If by "oppression" you mean fear of retribution, then I agree.




By opression I mean current methods society uses to control: police, SWATs, military, courts, jails etc.

If fear is stopping you from braking the taboo of murder, then
the only way to stop such a thinker is to threaten him with jail.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
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Posts: 4,033
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Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5594623 - 05/05/06 03:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
People fast from time to time to become closer to God. Do they fear the sandwich?

They fear themselves.




did you ever try fasting?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Libertinage [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5594627 - 05/05/06 03:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I have fasted many times. Once for 19 days. I never (since childhood) felt better or more awake and joyfull.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5594662 - 05/05/06 03:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I have fasted many times. Once for 19 days. I never (since childhood) felt better or more awake and joyfull.




Well just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it does not exist as a human reaction.
Fasting is often tied to christianity, belief in god etc. So I guess you wouldn't feel much by fasting exept hunger, because you are differently oriented spiritually.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Libertinage [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5594676 - 05/05/06 03:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Even if I could be certain there would be no negative consequences from murdering a person, I'm still not sure whether I would do it. Unless I really despised the person, but I usually don't despise people, and if I do, it's usually not for very long.

Sexual taboos don't make sense to me because they don't harm anyone. They're just arbitrary social stigmas. What is logic in viewing something which does not hurt anyone as wrong or disgusting?

I love people who are afraid of seeing a penis. I can't help but laugh. (Same goes for guys who go into the bathroom stalls to change at the gym.) It is a sexual organ, some flesh that fills with blood and shoots out sperm, whats the big deal? Far too much mysticism surrounds the lingam and the yoni.

Murder on the other hand causes a tremendous amount of suffering and I'm not sure I could drain enough of my empathy to kill someone just for the hell of it.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Libertinage [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5594682 - 05/05/06 03:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I have once, back when I was a christian.
Why does it matter?


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5594688 - 05/05/06 03:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Sexual taboos don't make sense to me because they don't harm anyone.



What about rape or pedophilia?


--------------------


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Libertinage [Re: Silversoul]
    #5594701 - 05/05/06 03:35 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Those are harmful too. Although, I think our society's response to them makes them even more damaging.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5594717 - 05/05/06 03:42 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Even if I could be certain there would be no negative consequences from murdering a person, I'm still not sure whether I would do it. Unless I really despised the person, but I usually don't despise people, and if I do, it's usually not for very long.

Sexual taboos don't make sense to me because they don't harm anyone. They're just arbitrary social stigmas. What is logic in viewing something which does not hurt anyone as wrong or disgusting?

I love people who are afraid of seeing a penis. I can't help but laugh. (Same goes for guys who go into the bathroom stalls to change at the gym.) It is a sexual organ, some flesh that fills with blood and shoots out sperm, whats the big deal? Far too much mysticism surrounds the lingam and the yoni.

Murder on the other hand causes a tremendous amount of suffering and I'm not sure I could drain enough of my empathy to kill someone just for the hell of it.




Some people equally suffer because of sex. But that's not the point here...

The point is, we are back to some kind of taboo cathegory: harm,
you are waving around with that word as if it is an imperative, yet
harm is yet another taboo.
Can you prove harm is to be avoided?

Also, you speak of empathy, it's not empathy when you only feel it for those people with the same kind of fears as you have.
Empathy is supose to transcend the reason of pain. When your kid cries because he didn't get a toy he wanted, do you laught at him because you never cry because of such things, or do you feel for him even though you don't care for toys.

So when it comes to murder, you feel empathy because you yourself are afraid of being murdered, but when it comes to being afraid of seeing a penis, you feel no empathy because you yourself don't have such problems.

Such a fear is silly yes, but that doesn't matter, it exists in some people, and if you aren't there to help them with that fear, you should not provoke it in the first place.

How would you feel if someone provoked YOUR fear, like, I don't know insert your greatest fear.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5594727 - 05/05/06 03:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Those are harmful too. Although, I think our society's response to them makes them even more damaging.




again you go with the harm thing..

you see harm is YOUR taboo, you are not free of taboos


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Libertinage [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5594759 - 05/05/06 04:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I never said harm should be avoided or was inherently wrong, but I also cannot fathom how a person could rationalize something as being wrong which doesn't hurt anyone. It's based on religious premises through and through. "These areas are forbidden because God said so. Sensuality is evil."
Religious thought doesn't get much respect from me.

it's not empathy when you only feel it for those people with the same kind of fears as you have

Not according to this definition: Direct identification with, understanding of, and vicarious experience of another person's situation, feelings, and motives.
Sorry, but I can't understand these people's penis prejudices.

you feel empathy because you yourself are afraid of being murdered

No, it's because I've witnessed the kind of suffering that death causes.

when it comes to being afraid of seeing a penis, you feel no empathy because you yourself don't have such problems.

Right, seeing a penis will cause these people so much suffering.  :rolleyes:


Edited by MushmanTheManic (05/05/06 04:12 PM)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Libertinage [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5594763 - 05/05/06 04:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

He asked if rape and pedophilia were harmful... I said they were.
What does this have to do with taboos?


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5594782 - 05/05/06 04:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
I never said harm should be avoided or was inherently wrong, but I also cannot fathom how a person could rationalize something as being wrong which doesn't hurt anyone.




Most of the things which are considered immoral are tied to animal behaviour. Since civilisation is a community which has abandoned the ways of the animals, so is morality shaped accoarding to that.

-Killing without remorse is the way of the animals
-Sex with anything that can recieve a penis (regardless of age) is animalistic also
-Sex without emotions of love and feeling of intimacy is also the way of animals
-Killing of infants is the way of the animals

etc. etc.

All of the above can be summed to one question:
Why do we avoid being like mindless animals?
Well civilisation is built on supression of the animal inside us.
If all people followed all their animal instincts, society of earth would fall to ashes within one month. And that is nobodies interest.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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