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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Silversoul]
    #5593196 - 05/05/06 08:29 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

As for the guilt/shame, it's obviously not something you should feel every time you have a sexual desire, but it is healthy to feel it when you have let your desires get the best of you, just as I felt guilty earlier for having let my ego get the best of me. One should strive as much as possible to maintain control over themselves.

I very much disagree with this. In this case guilt and shame have no useful purpose other than to repress the individual.

If you let your desires get the best of you (whatever that means) oh well, look to the result. Did that serve you and make you really happy and satisfied? If not then you can do it differently next time. No need for self recrimination, that will just make you not want to try to change IMO. You are "God" and sex is "God" IMO, so no need to feel ashamed of that. Your statement is almost verbatum what the Baptist church I grew up with preaches.

Again the need to "control" oneself seems fear driven IMO. Religion seems fear driven for the most part as well.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5594112 - 05/05/06 01:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

''
I very much disagree with this. In this case guilt and shame have no useful purpose other than to repress the individual.

If you let your desires get the best of you (whatever that means) oh well, look to the result. Did that serve you and make you really happy and satisfied? If not then you can do it differently next time. No need for self recrimination, that will just make you not want to try to change IMO. ''

what bases do you have for this statement? guilt and shame are powerful motivating forces to bring about positive change in some people.


You are "God" and sex is "God" IMO, so no need to feel ashamed of that. Your statement is almost verbatum what the Baptist church I grew up with preaches.

Again the need to "control" oneself seems fear driven IMO. Religion seems fear driven for the most part as well.



it seems more like anything you don't agree with is ''fear driven''. is going to work ''fear driven'' because you wish to avoid poverty? is every marriage and relationship ''fear driven'' because people fear being alone? by your logic, virtually all human behavior is fear driven. so whats wrong with that? i mean i would be just as justified in claiming sex is fear driven because people fear celibacy.


Edited by Deviate (05/05/06 01:07 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Deviate]
    #5594153 - 05/05/06 01:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Claim whatever you want. You're entitled to your opinion.

I think we live as a repressive fear driven species for the most part, and for whatever reason I'm not sure, but I have my guesses.

So yes I guess I do believe most human behavior is fear based and what's wrong with that IMO is it's out of balance. If we ever evolve to a point where self acceptance and self love are the norm, things might be very different. I doubt society would be structured around the same competitive drives and warfares that we seem to feel we need to be safe now. But I'm not holding my breath. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (05/05/06 01:18 PM)


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5594174 - 05/05/06 01:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

People fast from time to time to become closer to God. Do they fear the sandwich?


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5594188 - 05/05/06 01:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


Claim whatever you want. You're entitled to your opinion.

I think we live as a repressive fear driven species for the most part, and for whatever reason I'm not sure, but I have my guesses.

So yes I guess I do believe most human behavior is fear based and what's wrong with that IMO is it's out of balance. If we ever evolve to a point where self acceptance and self love are the norm, things might be very different. I doubt society would be structured around the same competitive drives and warfares that we seem to feel we need to be safe now. But I'm not holding my breath.


i am in total agreement with that. my point was that just as some people are taught to fear sex, other people are taught to fear not having sex. there is just as much guilt or shame felt by those who perceive themselves as being ''losers'' because they don't get as many girls as their peers as is there is by people who feel ashamed of their sexual desires.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Basilides]
    #5594194 - 05/05/06 01:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Ever know a woman who is compulsively watching her weight? I've known several and it's wild. They are constantly putting themselves down around food issues. They can't stop thinking about food and feel guilty about it constantly. Yes, they fear the sandwich. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5594267 - 05/05/06 01:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

yes i've known a woman like that, it dives me absolutely crazy. its such a self centered way of thinking in my opinion, considering no one else in the world cares if they gain an ounce but they act like so much is riding on it. anyway, to give you an example of how i think shame and guilt can be beneficial, ive found that after doing really bad on a test, that feeling of shame is the most powerful force that drives me to do better. also i tend to do much better on papers than multiple choice exams mainly because i would be too ashamed to turn in half a paper, yet its very easy to study only half the material for a multiple choice exam. its so much more impersona. of course, i'd rather not have it be this way, id rather have the motivation to do all my work without any fear being necessary but because, despite my efforts, ive not been able to reach that point, i find that fear of shame is one of my greatest motivators.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5594281 - 05/05/06 01:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Ever know a woman who is compulsively watching her weight? I've known several and it's wild. They are constantly putting themselves down around food issues. They can't stop thinking about food and feel guilty about it constantly. Yes, they fear the sandwich. :grin:




That goes right back to sex, ironically.

Other people diet for health reasons, but specifically I am talking about fasting for spiritual/aesthetic reasons.

Whether it is food, sex, or monetary wealth - there is nothing special about these things other than that they lubricate the Wheel of Life. Over indulgence in anything is never good thing, and more often than not it reaps misfortunate, wether it is a weight of 350 lbs, a sexually transmitted disease, or severe attachment to wealth (people kill themselves and others all the time over money).

Sex, Food, and Wealth are to the likeness of the pig in the Wheel of Life. The wisdom is in transcending, not denying. Obviously every human body needs food to survive, a natural sex drive to satisfy, and a bit of money to put a roof over their heads and clothes on their backs..

It's about avoiding over-indulgence.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Basilides]
    #5594312 - 05/05/06 01:48 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

It's about avoiding over-indulgence.

I thought we'd all agreed to this?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5594320 - 05/05/06 01:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
From a fairly young age, around 15 or so, I've considered perversity to be a virtue. I was fired from my previous job for brazenly reading a pornographic magazine and am quite proud of that accomplishment. I've also had an entertaining adventure into sadism (which I will not discuss here).

I consider perversity and sexual deviation as a type of reactive nihilism against the herd's silly taboos. Ironically, I also think far too many people are unhealthily obsessed with sex. Sex is not something I value per se, rather I value sexual acts which violate some established taboo. Why? Simply because it is a rebellion against the herd mentality which seems to be deeply entrenched in the sexual arena. How many times does a man openly admit he likes a little prostate stimulation? Hardly ever, if at all. And, how many of you would think "gross" when you heard him admit it?

By the way Skorpie, nice sig.  :wink:




There are many taboos in the society, sexuality is the least chalenging one to brake. Be a man and try to shock people by rape or murder


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5594326 - 05/05/06 01:50 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I don't know, I'm just chiming in here, lol


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Basilides]
    #5594367 - 05/05/06 01:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
I don't know, I'm just chiming in here, lol




Oh a trouble maker. :rolleyes: :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Libertinage [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5594461 - 05/05/06 02:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

No.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5594469 - 05/05/06 02:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
No.




Too weak for that?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Libertinage [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5594477 - 05/05/06 02:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Define weak.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5594483 - 05/05/06 02:30 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Define weak.




Not able


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Libertinage [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5594487 - 05/05/06 02:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Nope.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Deviate]
    #5594491 - 05/05/06 02:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

i find that fear of shame is one of my greatest motivators.

So there's that fear word again. Too bad, as you say, you need this for motivation but I think it is part of our basic program at this time in our evolution to some degree for most of us.

It may not always be so. Still, I'm not holding my breath.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5594513 - 05/05/06 02:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Nope.




So, you are able then?

Then what's stopping you? Social sanctions? You get them with braking sexual taboos too. Well maybe you get jail, but many don't get caught.

My point is, taboo against murder is the same kind of taboo as the taboo from hedonistic sex.
Both are either just social taboos which can be broken, or moral rules, depending on how you look at it.

I was just wondering, since you see virtue in braking taboos, why does this virtue apply only to some selected taboos..


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5594521 - 05/05/06 02:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
i find that fear of shame is one of my greatest motivators.

So there's that fear word again. Too bad, as you say, you need this for motivation but I think it is part of our basic program at this time in our evolution to some degree for most of us.

It may not always be so. Still, I'm not holding my breath.




I rarely find fear as a motivator. Usually fear causes the oposite effect in me: i just crawl into some hole and become paralised, or simply give it up.
If you threaten me by being fired, I'd rather give up and get fired right away then live in fear. I hate fear.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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