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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5590949 - 05/04/06 06:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I'm talking about Western Tantra.



Ah, you mean the bastardized Hollywood version that's lost all its meaning, and is just used for old couples who've lost the spark in their relationship? Yes, I'm quite familiar with that. It has nothing whatsoever to do with real tantra.

Quote:

Somehow in the male nature it's become the fasion to deny the pleasures of the body and call that spiritual. IMO I don't see much real spirituality in spirituality these days. And it's interesting you would start to flame me when I meantion fear and sex. As Freud would say. Very interesting.



It's really quite simple. Sex, like food, drugs, or any other earthly pleasure, as an attachment to something material and impermanent. As the Buddha pointed out, such attachments are the cause of suffering. Spirituality is largely oriented towards transcending earthly bounds, and sexual desires are one of many that get in the way of that. That's not to say you can't be spiritual and have sex, but the pursuit of sexual gratification is undoubtedly an obstacle to spiritual enlightenment.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Silversoul]
    #5590956 - 05/04/06 06:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Ah, you mean the bastardized, version that's lost all its meaning, and is just used for old couples who've lost the spark in their relationship? Yes, I'm quite familiar with that. It has nothing whatsoever to do with real tantra.

How ignorant elitist and egotistical. You definitely are full of yourself and your importance. My guess is you are hardly familiar with sex at all.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Silversoul]
    #5590963 - 05/04/06 06:13 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

but the pursuit of sexual gratification is undoubtedly an obstacle to spiritual enlightenment.

Prove it. I think you're speaking utter nonsense.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5590969 - 05/04/06 06:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Ah, you mean the bastardized, version that's lost all its meaning, and is just used for old couples who've lost the spark in their relationship? Yes, I'm quite familiar with that. It has nothing whatsoever to do with real tantra.

How ignorant elitist and egotistical. You definitely are full of yourself and your importance. My guess is you are hardly familiar with sex at all.



You're the one talking about how all religions hate sex because they fear it. That's at least as ignorant and egotistical as anything I've said in this thread. And I've had my share of sexual experiences. What you don't get is that I'm not anti-sex. I simply recognize how powerful a force sex is, and understand why it's not something to be taken lightly.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Silversoul]
    #5590994 - 05/04/06 06:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I never said anything about taking anything lightly. Yet I don't take it more seriously then anything else in the world. It's all one to me and it's different paths for each and every one of us. You have no way of knowing what path a person could use to find their way to the source. That's always my complaint against religious dogma. If it works for you fine and dandy but shut up about what works or doesn't or is truth for everyone else. You don't have a clue about that so stop pretending you do. I've met as many Buddhists that believe buddhism is the only path to enlightenment (whatever that is) as Christians who tell you that you need to be saved or you're going to hell. Give it a rest.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Silversoul]
    #5590999 - 05/04/06 06:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You're the one talking about how all religions hate sex because they fear it.

In my post I said for the most part.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5591162 - 05/04/06 07:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I never said anything about taking anything lightly. Yet I don't take it more seriously then anything else in the world. It's all one to me and it's different paths for each and every one of us. You have no way of knowing what path a person could use to find their way to the source. That's always my complaint against religious dogma. If it works for you fine and dandy but shut up about what works or doesn't or is truth for everyone else. You don't have a clue about that so stop pretending you do. I've met as many Buddhists that believe buddhism is the only path to enlightenment (whatever that is) as Christians who tell you that you need to be saved or you're going to hell. Give it a rest.




buddhism affirms the validitiy of other religions so i'm wondering how that is possible? i'm not calling you a liar but id be interested to know how those buddhists justified their belief when it runs contrary to buddhist teaching.


Edited by Deviate (05/04/06 07:18 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Deviate]
    #5591252 - 05/04/06 07:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Your confusion stems from equating the followers of Buddhism with it's tenets. As Gandi said. " I like your Christ but I dislike your Christians".


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5591314 - 05/04/06 07:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Exclusivism and fundamentalism are probably extremely marginal in Buddhism


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Basilides]
    #5591452 - 05/04/06 08:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Well I live in the Pacific Northwest in a town that caters to eastern religions. We have buddhist temples (big ones) in sight of my house and others nearby. I know quite a few "buddhists". I got to tell you you couldn't prove your statement by me. The only people I have found more sure to condemn your ignorant beliefs are the Christians I grew up with in the Midwest (Baptist). I thought it was just the Western Buddhists in the US but I met some of the guys from Tibet and frankly they are a bunch of snobs IMO.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (05/04/06 08:07 PM)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Silversoul]
    #5591723 - 05/04/06 09:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Tantra allows sex only insofar as one can avoid attachment to the act. That's the point of tantra: to participate in otherwise indulgent behavior while remaining unattached to the pleasure it brings. It's a sort of chemotherapy for the soul. It is precisely because tantra fears sexual desire that it uses it as an exercise in self-control.

"Instead of viewing pleasure and desire as something to be avoided at all costs, tantra recognizes the powerful energy aroused by our desires to be an indispensable resource for the spiritual path.... tantra seeks to transform every experience into the path of fulfilment.... desire is the fuel propelling us to our highest destination."
-- Lama Yeshe


Edited by MushmanTheManic (05/04/06 09:12 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5591739 - 05/04/06 09:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Very nice. I think this is in alignment with the goals of Western Tantra. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5591748 - 05/04/06 09:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

And whats all this nonsense I hear about seriousness!?


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Silversoul]
    #5591767 - 05/04/06 09:20 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I've had my share of sexual experiences.




No you haven't.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Libertinage [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5591774 - 05/04/06 09:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
And whats all this nonsense I hear about seriousness!?




Sorry. :blush:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Libertinage [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5591794 - 05/04/06 09:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

So you believe you should be free to tie up parking spots that stores reserved for their handicapped customers and to tie up parking spots to keep the way open for a fire truck if one needs to get in close to hydrant?

Parking in front of a NO PARKING signs is something I do every day, but I rarely park in handicapped spaces. I think its important to understand the context of this behavior, though. I'm a delivery driver for Rosati's. The hydrant, or whatever, is usually only blocked for a couple of minutes. It's really more of a self satisfying symbolic gesture than anything else. It saves me time too.

If not that, it sounds like, risking imprisonment to feel free is what gets you off.

Freedom may be my highest virtue. I'd probably die for it.

I can't figure out exactly where you are coming from with all of this or what we are suppose to be talking about here.

I just wanted to tell everyone why I valued perversity.  :smile:

Maybe you just wanted to share with us what turns you on sexually.

That too.  :wink:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Silversoul]
    #5592133 - 05/04/06 11:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Icelander, I owe you(and myself) an apology for earlier. My ego got in the way, and it obscured what I was trying to say.

Sex, like anything, should be done in moderation. It's not that sexual desires are bad. Rather, letting those desires control you is what needs to be avoided. Celibacy is a practice for those who seek the utmost self-discipline(as people seeking enlightenment often do). To dismiss it as simply fearing sex is no better than my comment about Western Tantra.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Silversoul]
    #5592206 - 05/04/06 11:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks. I never said that sex should be an addiction. (that's what you're getting at I think) But look at the taboos around sex. So much guilt and shame for having these desires. I grew up in the Baptist church and they did their best to make me guilty for all my natural urges, and which only the vows of marriage could provide some slight relief from that sin.

Now there is a lot of energy in sex. When you feel guilt or shame around your sexual being, you need to sit down hard on that energy because it wants to flow and it's no joke, there's some real strong life/spiritual energy there.

I'm going to stand by my opinion that there is a lot of fear going on in calling sex a hindrance to the spiritual path. IMO nothing could be further from the truth and as anyone who has worked with there sexuality can tell you " you have to get into it, before you get out of it."


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5592328 - 05/05/06 12:03 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I won't deny that many religious groups do have unhealthy attitudes about sex(as do many secular people who rebel against those religious attitudes). But believing that sexual desires should be kept under control is not the same as fearing them. It's an issue of self-discipline. Being a slave to your desires tends to get you in trouble. The goal is to be "master of your domain," as Seinfeld so eloquently put it.

As for the guilt/shame, it's obviously not something you should feel every time you have a sexual desire, but it is healthy to feel it when you have let your desires get the best of you, just as I felt guilty earlier for having let my ego get the best of me. One should strive as much as possible to maintain control over themselves.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Libertinage [Re: Icelander]
    #5592344 - 05/05/06 12:09 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks. I never said that sex should be an addiction. (that's what you're getting at I think) But look at the taboos around sex. So much guilt and shame for having these desires. I grew up in the Baptist church and they did their best to make me guilty for all my natural urges, and which only the vows of marriage could provide some slight relief from that sin.

it seems like you're letting your own bad experience with religion growing up color your view of all religion.

Now there is a lot of energy in sex. When you feel guilt or shame around your sexual being, you need to sit down hard on that energy because it wants to flow and it's no joke, there's some real strong life/spiritual energy there.

i agree and this why is its important to use this energy in a beneficial way.

I'm going to stand by my opinion that there is a lot of fear going on in calling sex a hindrance to the spiritual path. IMO nothing could be further from the truth and as anyone who has worked with there sexuality can tell you " you have to get into it, before you get out of it."

as with most things, there are two sides to this coin. on the positive side i would agree that sex, under the right circumstances, can be a tremendous catylist toward spiritual growth. i've experienced an incredible sense of connectedless and an awareness of the onness of all life through sex. i would venture to say that sex is one of the moust powerful methods of temporarily raising consciousness we have. on the negative side, the sexual desire is a HUGE source of attatchment, desire and craving and is often one of the most major obstacles a person must overcome in order to rise above the carnal mind. i know this from my own experiences of desiring to have sex when i couldn't, years of masturbation addiction as a young teenager and now allowing it to distract me and continually draw my awareness away from the present moment. i believe that both celibacy and the intelligent use of sexual intercourse are both perfectly acceptable decisions for someone who considers themself a spiritual seeker. however, i dont see all restrictions on what is considered acceptable sexual conduct as being fear based. some of them are based on the desire to use the sexual energy in a way which is most beneficial to spiritual growth


Edited by Deviate (05/05/06 12:14 AM)


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