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OfflineSeaShrooms
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Re: Under U.S. pressure, president backs off decriminalization bill [Re: blaze2]
    #5590590 - 05/04/06 04:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Ok now that truely is speculation, I to am confident the U.S. has something dirty up their sleeves, they always do, but if they can't stop illegals now why do you think they could if mexico made drugs legal.


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The life of a condemned soul is hatred.


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Under U.S. pressure, president backs off decriminalization bill [Re: Phred]
    #5590622 - 05/04/06 04:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
The only thing that would have satisfied you guys is if the US had said nothing at all. Anything negative they say -- ANYTHING -- nor matter how mildly phrased, you instantly pounce on, howling that it is "bullying" and "intimidation". Voicing an opinion on something does not equal "intimidation", no matter how often or how loudly you guys claim it does.

Long time readers of this forum are well aware that I personally favor complete legalization of ALL drugs in ALL countries. For what it's worth, I personally think Mexico's proposed legislation doesn't go far enough. But the fact that I favor legalization doesn't mean I am incapable of recognizing that the US comments come nowhere close to bullying or intimidation.




Phred





Your right the only thing that would have satisfied me is if America had kept its nose out of other countries buisness. They have no right to exert ANY influence on a seperate soveriegn state. This is why the world hates America.

Any time America voices its "opinion" as you so gingerly put it, its not just a an opinion its a warning. Do as we say or there will be repercussions. That is bullying.

If the school yard bully says give him your lunch money you do it or else you get beat, especially when one is the equivalent of a senior and the other a freshman. He might not say I'll kick your ass if you dont, but teh message is there man.

Its ridiculous to see it any other way.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Under U.S. pressure, president backs off decriminalization bill [Re: blaze2]
    #5590648 - 05/04/06 04:30 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

blaze2 said
Quote:

Your right the only thing that would have satisfied me is if America had kept its nose out of other countries buisness. They have no right to exert ANY influence on a seperate soveriegn state. This is why the world hates America.




Bullshit. The US government has an obligation to it's citizens to do what it thinks is best for them. From your absurd position, you clearly think we should completely shut the borders and end all trade with other nations. This is not going to happen. The world is, after all, flat.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Registered: 05/24/04
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Re: Under U.S. pressure, president backs off decriminalization bill [Re: Phred]
    #5590856 - 05/04/06 05:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

speculation, yes. obviously.

but do you really think US officials only politely warned decriminalizing drugs "encourage drug tourism" in a friendly phone call? That's it? And suddenly Fox changes his mind..? What would you speculate was stated in closed-communication between the two parties and not released to the press? I am willing to bet DEA and White House officials listed off a set reprecussions for Mexico if the bill passed...and Fox, the politician, did not want that heat.

Do you really think the communication between US and Mexican officials was benign and without any political threats? Come on...you seem to have alot of faith in politicians to accurately report their doings to the press and not engage in the game of political threats. Let's speculate.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Under U.S. pressure, president backs off decriminalization bill [Re: Vvellum]
    #5591308 - 05/04/06 07:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

And suddenly Fox changes his mind..?




"Suddenly" changes his mind? How do you know this? Had he announced he was going to sign the bill as drafted? If so, I must have missed that announcement.

As the article stated, others in the Mexican government favor changing the wording, too. Did it ever occur to any of you that it was perhaps their persuasion which led him to send the bill back for changes? Leaders do sometimes act to gain political support within their own governments, you know.

Further, none of us have any way of knowing whether he hadn't already made up his mind to ask for modifications before anyone in the the US government or in Mexico's government had said word one.

Besides, Fox is no dummy. He must know that Mexico enacting such a law would piss off the US whether any US government representative said so or didn't say so. And of course the US government knows he knows this. You guys are nattering on about reading between the lines when it's obvious that in a case like this there need not ever be any lines uttered to read between.




Phred


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Registered: 07/17/05
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Re: Under U.S. pressure, president backs off decriminalization bill [Re: Phred]
    #5591334 - 05/04/06 07:48 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

And suddenly Fox changes his mind..?




"Suddenly" changes his mind? How do you know this? Had he announced he was going to sign the bill as drafted?




Yes, he had.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Under U.S. pressure, president backs off decriminalization bill [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5591359 - 05/04/06 07:52 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Yes, he had.




See, I didn't know that. You of course can provide us a credible source proving he had stated he would sign the bill as written, it will just take you a while to find it, right?



Phred


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: Under U.S. pressure, president backs off decriminalization bill [Re: Phred]
    #5591378 - 05/04/06 07:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

urggg... now your gonna make me look?


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Under U.S. pressure, president backs off decriminalization bill [Re: Phred]
    #5591388 - 05/04/06 07:56 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)



--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Under U.S. pressure, president backs off decriminalization bill [Re: Phred]
    #5591404 - 05/04/06 07:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

And suddenly Fox changes his mind..?




"Suddenly" changes his mind? How do you know this?
Phred




"Mexican President Vicente Fox refused to sign a drug decriminalization bill Wednesday, hours after U.S. officials warned the plan could encourage "drug tourism."

Seems sudden to me.


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: Under U.S. pressure, president backs off decriminalization bill [Re: Rono]
    #5591426 - 05/04/06 08:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060502/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/mexico_drugs

thats not the one I read before, but similar...


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Under U.S. pressure, president backs off decriminalization bill [Re: Rono]
    #5591431 - 05/04/06 08:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Rono, wtf? You can do better than that.

If it is so widely known he had said he would sign it, surely someone can find a news article from AP or Reuters or whoever quoting his words (translated into English, of course). If Fox made a statement he would sign the bill as written, it's on the net. That's a guarantee. I haven't been able to find such a statement from him, but then again I'm not the one who believes he ever stated such a thing. Equilibrium is the guy who says he did.



Phred


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Under U.S. pressure, president backs off decriminalization bill [Re: Phred]
    #5591441 - 05/04/06 08:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You asked for a link...I gave you a bunch of 'em that stated "Mexico's Fox to Sign Bill Legalizing Drugs"

I'm only one man...

here's another one... http://www.freemarketnews.com/WorldNews.asp?nid=12305

i'm sure you can find more...


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Under U.S. pressure, president backs off decriminalization bill [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5591442 - 05/04/06 08:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Sorry, but I carefully read that through twice and missed the part quoting Fox that he intended to sign the bill as written. Perhaps you could cut and paste the whole article, and bold the quote from Fox. That would be helpful.




Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Under U.S. pressure, president backs off decriminalization bill [Re: Rono]
    #5591455 - 05/04/06 08:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I din't ask for a bunch of links. I asked for a quote from Fox stating he'd sign the bill as written. If you can't provide one, don't feel bad... no one else can either.



Phred


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: Under U.S. pressure, president backs off decriminalization bill [Re: Phred]
    #5591461 - 05/04/06 08:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Man, you just don't give up do you? It says that he will sign the bill! "How its written" is clearly implied! You want everyone to spell everything out for you or what?


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Under U.S. pressure, president backs off decriminalization bill [Re: Phred]
    #5591466 - 05/04/06 08:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I think you're alone in your thinking on this one my friend...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Under U.S. pressure, president backs off decriminalization bill [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5591475 - 05/04/06 08:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I read a whole hell of a lot of things in news articles that later turn out to be bullshit. That's why I want to see a quote from Fox saying he would sign the bill as written.

Did it ever occur to you the reason you can't find such a statement from Fox is because he didn't make such a statement?




Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Under U.S. pressure, president backs off decriminalization bill [Re: Rono]
    #5591533 - 05/04/06 08:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I think you're alone in your thinking on this one my friend...




Probably because I'm the only one who is thinking. The rest of y'all are just making assumptions.

Assumption 1 -- Fox won't sign because the US "bullied" or "intimidated" him into not signing.

Assumption 2 -- He would have signed the bill as written had the US said nothing

Assumption 3 -- He cares more about what the US says than what concerned members of the Mexican government say

Assumption 4 -- He won't sign it no matter how the wording is changed, because the US doesn't want him to

None of you have even READ the details of this bill at all, have you? It's a bullshit bill from the standpoint of easing drug penalties in Mexico. The courts ALREADY have the power to dismiss cases brought before them involving such miniscule quantities of drugs. And it makes things WORSE -- much worse -- for small drug dealers and even for users caught with anything over the laughably tiny amounts the law considers "personal" amounts.

Have you read the amounts they're talking about? One fortieth of a gram of heroin. One quarter gram of cocaine. Two standard Ecstasy pills. A quarter dose of LSD. A tenth of a dose of fresh mushrooms. It's a freaking JOKE!

All it was intended to do was to relieve the court system of having to process junkies up to the point where they get turned loose by the judge anyway by allowing cops to turn them loose at the scene. In every other respect, it makes things harsher. If I were a Mexican doper, I'd fight to have the bill discarded and continue to take my chances with the old system.





Phred


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Under U.S. pressure, president backs off decriminalization bill [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5591809 - 05/04/06 09:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
blaze2 said
Quote:

Your right the only thing that would have satisfied me is if America had kept its nose out of other countries buisness. They have no right to exert ANY influence on a seperate soveriegn state. This is why the world hates America.




Bullshit. The US government has an obligation to it's citizens to do what it thinks is best for them. From your absurd position, you clearly think we should completely shut the borders and end all trade with other nations. This is not going to happen. The world is, after all, flat.




Of course there is an obligation to its citizens that said that cannot and should not infringe on teh rights of a seperate soveriegn nation. If this is truly a free and democratic world that the US keeps using to justify all of its bullshit foriegn policies lately, then any state has a right to vote for personal rights, WITHOUT FEAR OF REPRECUSSION.

The resposibility does not lie in teh government to protect our kids from crossing teh border to get drugs, it belongs on the parents to not let their Kids go to mexico if they dont want their kids doing drugs. Thats a parents right, a state has no right to tell a Free grown man what he can, and cant put in his body.

I cant think of a single justification you or anyone else can have that would not make hippocrites out of the US. Unless you think its allright to be a hipporcrite? Well?


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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