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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Good?
    #5586634 - 05/03/06 04:50 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Is it possible to objectively define what is "good," as in the opposite of evil?

It seems to me that, when defining good, we will always be influenced by the subjectivity of our context (American, 21st century, male/female, lower/middle/upper class, religious/agnostic/atheist, family beliefs, etc...), just as we are in defining what we mean by "evil."


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Good? [Re: Veritas]
    #5586636 - 05/03/06 04:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

That's good. :thumbup: :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
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Re: Good? [Re: Veritas]
    #5586674 - 05/03/06 04:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Objectively, what is "good" is subjective.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
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Re: Good? [Re: Veritas]
    #5586697 - 05/03/06 05:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, "good" is just as subjective and relative as "bad".


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Good? [Re: dblaney]
    #5586736 - 05/03/06 05:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

well ive seen many people here claim that delusion/ignorance is never good. if that is so then it would follow that good could be defined as knowledge or truth. i personally like to think of good as love and truth.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Good? [Re: Deviate]
    #5586750 - 05/03/06 05:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Love, devotion and surrender.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Good? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #5586774 - 05/03/06 05:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Love of what (or whom)?, devotion to what (or whom)?, surrender to what (or whom)?

The power of subjectivity:

Many stalkers claim that they are deeply in love with the focus of their obsession.

Hitler was devoted to eliminating threats to the genetic superiority of the Aryan race.

Surrendering your power to others results in an unhealthy relationship.

You'll have to be more specific. :grin:


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Good? [Re: Deviate]
    #5586785 - 05/03/06 05:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

well ive seen many people here claim that delusion/ignorance is never good.

It's not good to them because they are seeking the goal of knowledge, thus ignorance is very bad. But for someone who has no interest in knowledge, ignorance certainly isn't a bad thing. In and of itself, delusion/ignorance is just delusion/igorance. Good and bad are terms that humans assign to things; they are subjective.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineSporetacus
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Registered: 04/19/06
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Re: Good? [Re: Veritas]
    #5586794 - 05/03/06 05:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Breyer's chocolate ice cream with fresh sliced strawberries is 'good'.


--------------------
I'm Sporetacus!


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Good? [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5586803 - 05/03/06 05:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

No, it is delicious.  Ice cream is amoral.  :wink:


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Good? [Re: dblaney]
    #5586805 - 05/03/06 05:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
well ive seen many people here claim that delusion/ignorance is never good.

It's not good to them because they are seeking the goal of knowledge, thus ignorance is very bad. But for someone who has no interest in knowledge, ignorance certainly isn't a bad thing. In and of itself, delusion/ignorance is just delusion/igorance. Good and bad are terms that humans assign to things; they are subjective.




ignorance is still bad for someone who isnt seeking knowledge because it could lead to make decisions which were not conductive to something else that they were seeking. but i'm not sure i dissagree with you, id like to see one of the many users here who has claimed delusion is always bad to try to argue this since i dont really understand their position.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Good? [Re: Deviate]
    #5586908 - 05/03/06 05:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
well ive seen many people here claim that delusion/ignorance is never good.




I personally claim that delusion and ignorance are never beneficial to an individual and their successful navigation of reality. "Good" is an extremely relative term that I would not apply in regards to the situation, if at all. :wink:

Quote:


if that is so then it would follow that good could be defined as knowledge or truth.




A definition of what something is not does not necessitate that the opposite of what it is not is the definition of what it is, if you follow me. :smirk:

If one were to state that ignorance is never good, then it does not follow that knowledge is good. :wink:

:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Good? [Re: Deviate]
    #5586994 - 05/03/06 06:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

ignorance is still bad for someone who isnt seeking knowledge because it could lead to make decisions which were not conductive to something else that they were seeking.

Right, but their seeking is still in search of a goal. When you desire to reach a goal, it is very easy to classify things as "good" or bad" depending on whether or not it will help you achieve that goal. In and of itself however, something is neither "good" nor "bad".


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Good? [Re: dblaney]
    #5587064 - 05/03/06 06:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
Right, but their seeking is still in search of a goal. When you desire to reach a goal, it is very easy to classify things as "good" or bad" depending on whether or not it will help you achieve that goal. In and of itself however, something is neither "good" nor "bad".




"Good" and "bad" are not well-equipped concepts to be utilized in one's relationship with goals and their process. Terms such as "effective" and "obstructive" have more ability to serve the purpose of interpreting an event or aspect of reality in terms of one's goals.

"Good" and "bad" are simple. Vauge. Ineffective in representing value and meaning.

Throw them out the fucking window. ....sorry, Skorp, I can't bring myself to utilize "defenestrate" :lol:.

:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: Good? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5587158 - 05/03/06 06:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

well of course good and bad are entirely subjective in the sense that any particular event can be interpretated as good or bad or neither by any individual.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Good? [Re: Deviate]
    #5587177 - 05/03/06 06:42 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
well of course good and bad are entirely subjective in the sense that any particular event can be interpretated as good or bad or neither by any individual.




Which statement of mine is this in response to?

I wasn't discussing good and bad and their subjectiveness, but rather the logic that you used to come to the if/then statement that you did. :wink:

:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineDeviate
newbie
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Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: Good? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5587252 - 05/03/06 06:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

no, no, your logic is correct. i was wrong in implying it logically followed, i meant that reply to be to dblaney. i often forget to use to the correct reply function. i should have said that those who believe delusion is never beneficial tend to also believe that truth is always beneficial.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Good? [Re: Deviate]
    #5587274 - 05/03/06 07:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Sweet. :thumbup:

:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
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Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
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Re: Good? [Re: Veritas]
    #5587459 - 05/03/06 07:50 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

To serve and never be tired is love.
To learn and never be filled is devotion.
To offer and never to end is surrender.

Love is man's reality.
Devotion is man's divinity.
Surrender is man's immortality.

Reality is all-pervading.
Divinity is all-elevating.
Immortality is all-fulfilling.

-Sri Chinmoy


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (05/03/06 07:53 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Good? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #5587472 - 05/03/06 07:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Surrender is man's immortality.


For some reason I like this.^^^^

That used to be one of my favorite works from Santana. Unfortunately I no longer have it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Good? [Re: Icelander]
    #5587673 - 05/03/06 08:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You are correct, Santana and John McLaughlin of Mahavishnu Orchestra.  I have the album and listened to it just last night.  :grin:


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Good? [Re: Veritas]
    #5587802 - 05/03/06 09:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Is it possible to objectively define what is "good," as in the opposite of evil?


Nope. But that doesn't mean there aren't objective requirements for a specific individual to achieve their own happiness [good].




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Good? [Re: Veritas]
    #5590120 - 05/04/06 01:30 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

If I may simply throw that in:
Primarily, good is everything that benefits oneself.
Everybody will riddle this out in...the smalles group, the family... If the family is 'moraly' unhealthy [meaning, if only ONE of them tries to harm the other, so group-trust is destroyed], the good inside the family vanishes. Then good is everything, which benefits the family. This leads to the next group, society. If the society is 'moraly' un-healthy, the good inside it vanishes and good is everything which benefits society .. and so on for count[r]ies and so on for the whole planet earth and so on...
That's how I see it.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: Good? [Re: Veritas]
    #5604073 - 05/08/06 05:50 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Is it possible to objectively define what is "good," as in the opposite of evil?





How would it be possibile to define anything objectively?

The distinction between good and evil is a distinction made by those that are looking for security and harm in everything they encounter;
it is a distinction for those that feel threatened and have an oppressed mentality.

The same goes for objective definitions, especially objective definitions of values. The people that define and seek these have no values! and must create them, and convince others of them, to gain control in a world where they feel they have none. These persons, for these reasons, abstain from responsibility of their defining, their action, their living -- they do not know how to live, and act, upon that which they find GOOD within and from their lifeworld. Veritably, there is nothing GOOD in their lifeworld, and therefore they have the dichotomy of GOOD and EVIL (a GOOD that comes from outside [objectively] the lifeworld and and EVIL that threatens it [their very meager lives]), instead of a knowledge of what is GOOD divined from the lives they live.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Good? [Re: Lakefingers]
    #5604077 - 05/08/06 05:57 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

laughter is good.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Good? [Re: Veritas]
    #5604084 - 05/08/06 06:09 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Is it possible to objectively define what is "good," as in the opposite of evil?

It seems to me that, when defining good, we will always be influenced by the subjectivity of our context (American, 21st century, male/female, lower/middle/upper class, religious/agnostic/atheist, family beliefs, etc...), just as we are in defining what we mean by "evil."




good and bad are social concepts. When you have one isolated human being on a lone island, there is no good or bad.
Good is what tries to benefits the collective and each individual in it, and bad is what destroyes the harmony of the society and its collective progress.

Such a definition pushes the idea you have obeseved: that
good depents on which community we are talking about.

But the most noble ideas of good are often those aiming at humanity as a whole, instead of your willage, your street gang, your country etc.

That being said, even if you specify what kind of collective should benefit from this "good", the idea of what is good for THAT collective depends on the intelligence and wisedom of the thinker.

One can have noble intentions: try to benefit the whole humanity with his idea of "good", yet do damage to it due to his limited understanding of the consequences of this "good"

But I think, objective good is right there waiting for our intelligence to reach it.
Objective good is that which would trully bring harmony to the human society, but we have not reached that idea of good, due to our limited understanding of consequences of EVERY action we take.

Limited vision of what good is is as good as evil in its action, even though intentions may be noble.
For example, the church did a lot of damage and evil in its history, thinking that is what good is, but all because of its limited vision of what good is, in other words, what would trully bring love peace and harmony into society. Sertainly their actions wouldn't.


So good and evil are just two directions one can take in a realisation of a plan. The plan is growth and harmony of a certain community. And good is that which works FOR that plan, evil is that which works against it. There is nothing mystical about good and bad, these are just usefull and uneusefull approaches regarding that plan.

Again, where there are no two people, there is no good and bad, which is one of the blessings of being a hermit


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: Good? [Re: kotik]
    #5604209 - 05/08/06 08:25 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

kotik said:
laughter is good.




:laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:  :laugh: :laugh:  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
:laugh: :laugh:  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:    :laugh: :laugh:  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
:laugh:  :laugh: :laugh:  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
:laugh: :laugh:  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh: :laugh:


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