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quillini
one meanmotorscooter


Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 255
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: Maybe I am alone on this... [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5585926 - 05/03/06 01:53 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said:
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quillini said: But really I think it has less to do with "political correctness" and more to do with this orthodox leftist bullshit that some professors seem to buy into.
I consider those two things to be the same thing.
They're not the same thing; "political correctness", as it is couched in present discourse, involves an element of coercion. That is, there are things you can say and things you cannot say, as dictated by an all-powerful entity of some sort. In reality, so such thing exists. Nobody is forced to say or not say certain things. In the US, at least, you can say whatever you want. Period. But that doesn't mean people won't be offended.
Professors have no such coercive power. The worst they can do is lower your grade or fail you, and a student is free to drop a class the minute they see what's going on. It is insidious because of the power structure involved, but this power structure is not such that it absolutely limits free speech. In other words, I look down on the simplistic ideology that is used at times, but I don't feel like I have been violated. It's just bullshit, the same bullshit you have to put up with no matter where you are. It's a disagreement between two people, one of whom is in charge. I'm not forced to think or speak differently, I just drop the class and make a note to avoid that professor.
Ultimately it's about my choice, how I choose to express myself. Society reflects it, but does not control it unless I choose to abdicate control. Therefore, "political correctness" is merely an excuse used by people who allow fear to prevent them from expressing themselves.
-------------------- No; truth, being alive, was not halfway between anything. It was only to be found by continuous excursions into either realm, and though proportion is the final secret, to espouse it at the outset is to insure sterility. Only connect...
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quillini
one meanmotorscooter


Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 255
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: Maybe I am alone on this... [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5586010 - 05/03/06 02:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said:
Quote:
quillini said: Everyone has a right to be as offensive as they want to be. All I'm saying is sometimes it is more practical to avoid being offensive. The first amendment has to do with what you can legally say and not say, and in this case it really doesn't enter into it. She's not going to jail for her comments, after all.
But, she was given a lower grade merely for using a particular term. Then she was castigated in front of the entire class. This is completely innapropriate and the teacher should be disciplined.
I agree it was inappropriate. It's a hell of a way to treat somebody just speaking their mind. But who should be disciplined? It's a tricky issue.
Suppose one of the people in the class was an illegal immigrant, the only illegal immigrant in the class. It's not hard to imagine, then, that the girl's speech might be offensive to this illegal immigrant. In fact, the illegal immigrant might feel as though they are being castigated in front of the whole class for being, well, illegal. Then would the teacher be justified in disciplining the student who made such a speech that hurt the illegal immigrant's feelings so badly? Of course not. It is entirely possible that the girl's speech contained inappropriate material, but it makes no difference. As long as it's not obscene, it's fair game.
You might say that the girl, by using the word "illegal", was just calling somebody what they are. This teacher could have been thinking the same way, calling the girl a racist because that simply is what she is. If another classmate called the girl a racist and not the teacher, should they be punished? I say no because that's their opinion and they're entitled to it. Using a different standard for the teacher sets a poor example because in the real world, there is usually no means of recourse to rectify offense caused by someone expressing a disfavorable opinion of you. The line is drawn at slander or libel, and this is neither because "racist" is not a concrete term that means a specific thing. It can't be proven or disproven, and as such it's akin to saying someone is a doody-head.
It happens. That's life. Move on.
As far as the grade is concerned, if it's just for the word then that's bullshit and the girl should drop the class. A professor can be childish and have childish opinions of me or whatever, but when a grade is involved, that's grounds for dropping the course. She would be justified in reporting the teacher over it; I'm just not sure how far she would get. It depends on how bullshit leftist the department chair is.
Personally, I would have taken off for misreading the audience, but that's it.
-------------------- No; truth, being alive, was not halfway between anything. It was only to be found by continuous excursions into either realm, and though proportion is the final secret, to espouse it at the outset is to insure sterility. Only connect...
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist



Registered: 03/06/02
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Re: Maybe I am alone on this... [Re: quillini]
#5586333 - 05/03/06 03:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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But it's going to be the same audience every time. I think it would be better if they were allowed to "call their shot" and say that they are addressing the audience as if they were a group of retired veterans in a nursing home or a nun basketball team.
These type classes are based on the assumption that you have no control over your choice of audience;which suggests to me that they assume that you will be talking for somebody else in an employment situation or something.
It assumes at least that the speaker should be telling the audience something they want to hear, or in other words, you're expected to blow smoke up the audience's ass.
-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum


Registered: 12/20/00
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Re: Maybe I am alone on this... [Re: quillini]
#5586518 - 05/03/06 04:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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quillini said: Ultimately it's about my choice, how I choose to express myself. Society reflects it, but does not control it unless I choose to abdicate control. Therefore, "political correctness" is merely an excuse used by people who allow fear to prevent them from expressing themselves.
Right on. Why are people always complaining about the appearance of political correctness? If you don't want to be PC, than don't be. No one is going to fine you or send you to jail for calling gay people "fags," if that's how you think of them. It's just that for the first time in history you can't bash gay people for being gay or black people for being black or women for being women without running the risk of being called out as an asshole.
This case is a fine example of when you just ignore Political Correctness because someone is being dumb. It sounds like the prof was trying to blow the PC whistle, and if I had been in that class I just would have ignored him. He's causing more harm than he is good.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
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Re: Maybe I am alone on this... [Re: gluke bastid]
#5586536 - 05/03/06 04:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I cant wait till its politically correct to talk shit to fat people...
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: Maybe I am alone on this... [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#5586542 - 05/03/06 04:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Stuff like this pisses me off to no end. I'm going to say some ageist stuff and I know most of you are very young, but I was once young too and I know I couldn't have appropriately responded then. . This jackass abused her position of authority to promote an agenda that was utterly irrelevant to the subject matter, which was simply public speaking. Content was irrelevant. She would have been better off in this asshole's mind had she delivered a speech about the value of epidemics in strengthening the species. . Your girlfriend is young, probably quite sweet, and not used to being shit on. When someone shits on her she is most likely astonished and speechless. It's a sucker punch. Especially in public. Hopefully she will learn from this and not be so surprised next time. Or the time after or the time after that. Because they will come. The ability to respond to real shit (I don't mean generally imaginary "disses") only comes with experince of real shit. I'm glad for her that she was flabbergasted. It means she has not been exposed to an endless series of shitheads her whole life. The bad news is they're coming. The tricky part is recognizing what is bullshit right away. Because if you can't pick it up right away they get in too many shots before you can respond. In this case, the immediate response would be to ask "Is it not appropriate to refer to people who illegally immigrate "illegals? And what makes you think all illegal immigrants are Hispanic? Isn't that a racist assumption?" Now, I can do this because I am ready for morons and assholes because I have met and read a lot of them. I'm always ready. In your girlfriend's blessed naivete, she is never ready. And you have to be quick. So, be happy. She met an asshole, got some real world experience and only got a somewhat lessened grade on one thing. Unless she pursues the issue. And I do think some kind of complaint is in order. At least to save the next victim of this asshole.
As to the personal questions, that too was bullshit. Absent a blackeye, this asshole has no business asking any personal questions, and that only inasmuch as she would of any stranger. She needs to teach the subject she was hired to teach and otherwise butt out. I can't imagine any professor ever having done that shit 30 years ago. I'm sorry we left you with this. Dysfunctional jerk-off hippies in a position of power over young people at their most vulnerable.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Maybe I am alone on this... [Re: quillini]
#5586624 - 05/03/06 04:48 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
quillini said: Professors have no such coercive power. The worst they can do is lower your grade or fail you
That seems pretty coercive to me.
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AaronEvil
The GuitarVillain


Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 1,706
Loc: California
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Re: Maybe I am alone on this... [Re: quillini]
#5587084 - 05/03/06 06:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
quillini said:
Suppose one of the people in the class was an illegal immigrant, the only illegal immigrant in the class. It's not hard to imagine, then, that the girl's speech might be offensive to this illegal immigrant. In fact, the illegal immigrant might feel as though they are being castigated in front of the whole class for being, well, illegal. Then would the teacher be justified in disciplining the student who made such a speech that hurt the illegal immigrant's feelings so badly? Of course not. It is entirely possible that the girl's speech contained inappropriate material, but it makes no difference. As long as it's not obscene, it's fair game.
You might say that the girl, by using the word "illegal", was just calling somebody what they are. This teacher could have been thinking the same way, calling the girl a racist because that simply is what she is. If another classmate called the girl a racist and not the teacher, should they be punished? I say no because that's their opinion and they're entitled to it. Using a different standard for the teacher sets a poor example because in the real world, there is usually no means of recourse to rectify offense caused by someone expressing a disfavorable opinion of you. The line is drawn at slander or libel, and this is neither because "racist" is not a concrete term that means a specific thing. It can't be proven or disproven, and as such it's akin to saying someone is a doody-head.
If someone was over here illegally and they were offended by the word illegal no one should care. Dont come over here illegally and the word wont apply to you. Point and case. Secondly, how is my girlfriend a racist for calling 56 illegal immigrants illegal? She wasnt saying the entire hispanic population is filled with law breaking illegals. She was simply giving commentary on a news story about illegals coming over in a minivan, which was essentially what the assignment was. Also, just to clarify since I didnt mention it earlier, the only person who was upset about the word illegal used in the speech was the instructor. The students thought it was appropriate to use based on the circumstances.
Ill see if I can get a copy of her speech so I can show you how it was used in context. I guess without hearing/reading the speech we are all assuming different things.
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There is not a lot of difference between a fox hole and a grave; but knowing that you dug your ditch and climbed in anyway.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Maybe I am alone on this... [Re: AaronEvil]
#5587219 - 05/03/06 06:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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To reiterate a point I made earler, "illegal" is not racist. Nowhere near all illegals are "beaners" or "wetbacks". A great many are Eastern Europeans. We don't have a "racist" word for them. The "spit" professor was being racist in assuming that all illegals are "beaners."
Is "beaner" racist or just a stereotype based on actual behavior (i.e. they eat a lot of beans)? In which case it would just be a proper description. As would "wetback" seeing as how it derives from their having swum across the Rio Grande. This professor is a cunt. Is that cuntish or just a judgement based on her behaviour. Great idea for the next topic of your girlfriend's next assignment. "Is it always sexist to call someone a cunt? Wnat if the cunt in question is a male?"
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Hank, FTW
Looking for the Answer

Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 3,912
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Re: Maybe I am alone on this... [Re: zappaisgod]
#5642293 - 05/17/06 03:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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The problem is your president referring to these ILLEGAL ALIANS as "undocumented workers"
That's like me breaking into your house and you calling me an "uninvited houseguest"
It's insanity, the USA government is insane.
-------------------- Capliberty: "I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "
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quillini
one meanmotorscooter


Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 255
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Re: Maybe I am alone on this... [Re: AaronEvil]
#5643888 - 05/17/06 09:48 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I should clarify, I never said your girlfriend was a racist. I was merely saying that it's obvious that's what the teacher thought. Read my post carefully.
And as for no one caring if the illegal immigrant is offended, how is that relevant? The same thing witnessed from different points of view often results in a clusterfuck such as what happened to your girlfriend. That was my whole point. I never gave an opinion of your girlfriend or what she said, just of the situation as you presented it.
-------------------- No; truth, being alive, was not halfway between anything. It was only to be found by continuous excursions into either realm, and though proportion is the final secret, to espouse it at the outset is to insure sterility. Only connect...
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quillini
one meanmotorscooter


Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 255
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: Maybe I am alone on this... [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#5643918 - 05/17/06 09:53 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Baby_Hitler said: But it's going to be the same audience every time. I think it would be better if they were allowed to "call their shot" and say that they are addressing the audience as if they were a group of retired veterans in a nursing home or a nun basketball team.
These type classes are based on the assumption that you have no control over your choice of audience;which suggests to me that they assume that you will be talking for somebody else in an employment situation or something.
It assumes at least that the speaker should be telling the audience something they want to hear, or in other words, you're expected to blow smoke up the audience's ass.
99% of the time, public speaking involves blowing smoke up the audience's ass. And, unless you're the president or something, you really have little to no control over your audience, so, yeah.
Example: Bill Clinton
-------------------- No; truth, being alive, was not halfway between anything. It was only to be found by continuous excursions into either realm, and though proportion is the final secret, to espouse it at the outset is to insure sterility. Only connect...
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kaiowas
lest we baguette


Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
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Re: Maybe I am alone on this... [Re: AaronEvil]
#5652559 - 05/20/06 08:07 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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ok, its a 'public speaking class' which signals to me that he needs to be very careful in what she says and how she says it. now I don't know the context of it, but yeah the term is very loaded. he might not have called her racist, but the ideas as such. again I don't know the context and how she said it, and how the instructor used her as an example. if he belittlered her and not the idea itself, then thats plain wrong anda complaint should be filed.
as far as the teacher asking about her personal life, thats BS as well and is illogical at best.
-------------------- Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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