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Icelander
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Something to think about.
#5582538 - 05/02/06 06:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"Anytime you wish to be relieved of false responsibilities, and compulsive duties, remember this: You owe everything to Reality and nothing to humanity."
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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habitat0789
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: Icelander]
#5582553 - 05/02/06 06:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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good call.
--------------------
ilove my woods...
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LunarEclipse
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: Icelander]
#5583085 - 05/02/06 08:48 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"You owe everything to reality and nothing to humanity."
So then is it morally OK to declare bankruptcy?
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Icelander
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: LunarEclipse]
#5583138 - 05/02/06 08:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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False responsibilities are responsibilities we have invented for ourselves or what Albert Ellis calls "shoulding all over yourself".
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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justAkid
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: Icelander]
#5583255 - 05/02/06 09:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
"Anytime you wish to be relieved of false responsibilities, and compulsive duties, remember this: You owe everything to Reality and nothing to humanity."
Why do feel a need to abandon you fellow human beings and your country?
Isn't love for fellow human beings an essential part of our nature?
Now I know the media and society expect us to participate in continuing to feed the "fat cats", and this may call for abandonment of societies' "false responcibilites, but these are responcilities are foriegn and come from society. We have every duty to humanity; to caring for, to protecting, and most importantly to loving the ones that are important to us and sometimes those that are not.
-------------------- Trust thyself.
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Icelander
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: justAkid]
#5583306 - 05/02/06 09:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'm abandoning no one. I just prefer reality.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (05/02/06 09:32 PM)
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justAkid
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: Icelander]
#5583421 - 05/02/06 09:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
I'm abandoning no one. I just prefer reality.
It just seems selfish to me to care more about your reality that human beings.
-------------------- Trust thyself.
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Icelander
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: justAkid]
#5583533 - 05/02/06 10:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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That's because you don't understand the nature of reality or my post.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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justAkid
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: Icelander]
#5584093 - 05/02/06 11:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
That's because you don't understand the nature of reality or my post.
I am genuinely shocked by your arrogance. I can't reason with your superior understanding. I'm sorry to have taken your time with questioning ideas. I should learn to just accept everything that Icelander says by faith it seems.
-------------------- Trust thyself.
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CUBErt
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: Icelander]
#5584107 - 05/02/06 11:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: That's because you don't understand the nature of reality or my post.
Maybe I don't understand either, but that sounded dreadfully similar to the words of many a clergyman who use the notion of some higher truth that only they understand to gain and keep leverage over their followers.
-------------------- -CUBErt
 
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a_h_w
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: Icelander]
#5584686 - 05/03/06 07:32 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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what you don't understand is that you're clinging to your dancing penis. get real and realize that reality does not exist, only life, interdependent and miraculously free.
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Icelander
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: a_h_w]
#5584747 - 05/03/06 08:11 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Here's what that Vernon Howard quote says to me. We owe our alliegence to the reality of who we are, to ourselves as individuals. To honor who we are and not the things that everyone else tells us we should be or what we imagine others think we should be.
Too bad you don't agree, but that's up to you.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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a_h_w
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: Icelander]
#5584808 - 05/03/06 08:33 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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for has much has you think you can survive all on your own, you can't, for ultimately you depend on the light from a star. have you ever tried to listen to what people tell you without thinking? life is always speaking to you through every word and picture. you just have to go behind intention. there's a whole world revealing itself in every creature.
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LunarEclipse
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: Icelander]
#5584875 - 05/03/06 08:58 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"False responsibilitiesare responsibilities we have invented for ourselves or what Albert Ellis calls "shoulding all over yourself."
You didn't answer my question but in the context that we can shirk whatever "responsibility we have invented for ourselves" that makes sense too. In other words, even though it's a debate and normal protocol to address the other debater's question or point, now given this new attitude, you just ignore their question and go on with your previous monologue.
I asked if this makes declaring bankruptcy morally OK?
OK instead of bankruptcy, here's another example. Let's assume you buy a new car and at first make payments, but then other more "real" responsibilities come up in your life that replace this "false" responsibility of the car that you "really don't want now". So that makes it OK to not pay Ford for the car? Does it make it OK for you to keep the car? Does it make it OK to also move and hide the car from the repo man? I mean what if you still "really" need to drive the car, but "really" don't want to make the payments, and "really" don't want the repo man to snag it. Keep it, drive it, don't pay for it, and above all QUIT shoulding all over yourself??
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
Edited by LunarEclipse (05/03/06 09:02 AM)
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Bikerfool
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: LunarEclipse]
#5584924 - 05/03/06 09:15 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I agree with the original point. We're not born into debt. I owe nothing to everyone. If I'm going to do anything for any one it's from my heart not because I have to do it.
-------------------- Just an angsty teen contributing to the pubs decline with contentless posts.
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Icelander
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: LunarEclipse]
#5585114 - 05/03/06 10:11 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said: "False responsibilitiesare responsibilities we have invented for ourselves or what Albert Ellis calls "shoulding all over yourself."
You didn't answer my question but in the context that we can shirk whatever "responsibility we have invented for ourselves" that makes sense too. In other words, even though it's a debate and normal protocol to address the other debater's question or point, now given this new attitude, you just ignore their question and go on with your previous monologue.
I asked if this makes declaring bankruptcy morally OK?
OK instead of bankruptcy, here's another example. Let's assume you buy a new car and at first make payments, but then other more "real" responsibilities come up in your life that replace this "false" responsibility of the car that you "really don't want now". So that makes it OK to not pay Ford for the car? Does it make it OK for you to keep the car? Does it make it OK to also move and hide the car from the repo man? I mean what if you still "really" need to drive the car, but "really" don't want to make the payments, and "really" don't want the repo man to snag it. Keep it, drive it, don't pay for it, and above all QUIT shoulding all over yourself??
I'm having trouble relating this to the quote. You seem to have a different view on it that I frankly, don't understand. Same with Albert Ellis.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: a_h_w]
#5585118 - 05/03/06 10:13 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
a_h_w said: for has much has you think you can survive all on your own, you can't, for ultimately you depend on the light from a star. have you ever tried to listen to what people tell you without thinking? life is always speaking to you through every word and picture. you just have to go behind intention. there's a whole world revealing itself in every creature.
You lost me. Sorry. I have no idea what this has to do with the subject here.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Veritas

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Re: Something to think about. [Re: LunarEclipse]
#5585156 - 05/03/06 10:29 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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You are applying the quote to the material responsibilities which go along with our agreement to be consumers. These are "invented" responsibilities, but not ones which go away when we stop thinking they exist. 
"False reponsibilities and compulsive duties," in the Vernon Howard quote referenced, describe the spiritual/energetic duties we create in our own minds.
"I should spend time with my parents, even though they abused me as a child, continue to express negativity whenever I speak to them, have no wisdom to offer me, and do not appreciate my company."
"I should disguise my true self from others in order to win their love and approval."
"It is not OK for me to enjoy being single, because everyone else thinks I should want to get married."
Etc....etc....etc... All the mental "tapes" we play to keep ourselves in a rut, avoid taking risks, avoid alienating our companions.
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Octavius
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: Icelander]
#5585157 - 05/03/06 10:30 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well it depends on your priorities. I hold my reality higher then human contact, for human contact is sort of like a subdivision of my reality.
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: Icelander]
#5585512 - 05/03/06 12:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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And you also don't depend on Albert Elvis or Howard Venom
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Icelander
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5585563 - 05/03/06 12:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said: And you also don't depend on Albert Elvis or Howard Venom
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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LunarEclipse
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: Veritas]
#5585648 - 05/03/06 12:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'm all for trying to dismantle the "mental tape" machine if it has garbage on it. The problem is much of the really bad stuff is so old you can't even find it in the archives.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Icelander
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: LunarEclipse]
#5585668 - 05/03/06 12:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yes it's a problem. But you don't need to find it according to Ellis. All you need to do is start thinking rationally.
Hey that shouldn't be a problem for you.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: LunarEclipse]
#5585716 - 05/03/06 12:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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hehe, sorry..I simply don't like reading the quotings of unknowns over and over. I more like the original personal thoughts of knowns (of course even influenced by others), but it shows me more of someones character and reality. I will try to do my best to understand the personal thoughts of known interactive persons, so I will with yours, but those quotings distract me everytime and make me think someone bases his whole existence upon some writings, you know 

Sorry, I didn't want to go off topic, I have to think about your comments about your original quote. From whom is it anyways ?
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Icelander
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5585859 - 05/03/06 01:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Is this meant to be posted to me? If it is I need to tell you my name is Icelander.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: Icelander]
#5586012 - 05/03/06 02:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yes, sorry, it was meant to you. Why did you put your original statement into quotation marks then ? I will try to be more on concept.
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: Icelander]
#5586037 - 05/03/06 02:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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contextual: So it is better to be anti-social, to support his own egoistical reality ?
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Icelander
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5586094 - 05/03/06 02:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said: Yes, sorry, it was meant to you. Why did you put your original statement into quotation marks then ? I will try to be more on concept.
It's a quote by Vernon Howard.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5586106 - 05/03/06 02:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Have you been reading any of this? I mean reading and then thinking about what you have read? Just asking, because from my end it isn't clear that you have.
I have already responded to this.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Sporetacus
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: Icelander]
#5586128 - 05/03/06 02:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I thought I read that VH and his teachings were verboten on this board, but I could be wrong...
-------------------- I'm Sporetacus!
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Icelander
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: Sporetacus]
#5586169 - 05/03/06 03:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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They were only verboten in the context of who was reading or quoting them. But our ever faithful, honest and talented moderators are making sure only the right people quote him.
Thanks for caring enough to give me the heads up.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: Icelander]
#5586184 - 05/03/06 03:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yes, I did read them. And as even Veritas tellings didn't make any sense to me, I want to sharpen the question, as I think the concept of reality is presented very egoistical (contextual) objective (what is subjective) here and on the other hand humanity is presented as not related to objectivity, very irationaly, perhaps even more personally subjective. That is plainly wrong, as humanity carries a lot of realism and objectivity as like reality carries so much real humanity and subjectivity (damned words, perhaps I will find them sometimes). I can easily change the accent of these both concepts, as it seemed to have happened in your quote.
So, it is better to be anti-social, to support his own egoistical reality ?
Edited by BlueCoyote (05/03/06 03:23 PM)
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LunarEclipse
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: Icelander]
#5586637 - 05/03/06 04:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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If you say so.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: Icelander]
#5597000 - 05/06/06 05:52 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Come on, you answered nothing. False responsibilities are responsibilities we have invented for ourselves or what Albert Ellis calls "shoulding all over yourself". There is a reason to be responsible for somethings and someones, one can find real reasons for shoulds, they are not all invented.
I'm abandoning no one. I just prefer reality. What if you had to choose either your happy reality or the misery of someone based on your deeds ?
That's because you don't understand the nature of reality or my post. That what you owe to reality, not to humanity ? Humanity is as real as well. So isn't Howards statement not quite egoistic ?
I'm having trouble relating this to the quote. You seem to have a different view on it that I frankly, don't understand. Same with Albert Ellis. You didn't either answer the very good question of Lunar. He asked you about your personal outlook on the subject.
You lost me. Sorry. I have no idea what this has to do with the subject here. same here
Yes it's a problem. But you don't need to find it according to Ellis. All you need to do is start thinking rationally.
Hey that shouldn't be a problem for you. That is exactly, why I started participating in that thread, turning this to you, formerly.
So,I have already responded to this.. No, you did not. The quote is about the discrepancy of humanity and egoistical reality. Your answers skidded always around that discrepancy and you didn't post your personal answer related to that.
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Icelander
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5597342 - 05/06/06 10:01 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said: Come on, you answered nothing. False responsibilities are responsibilities we have invented for ourselves or what Albert Ellis calls "shoulding all over yourself". There is a reason to be responsible for somethings and someones, one can find real reasons for shoulds, they are not all invented.
I'm abandoning no one. I just prefer reality. What if you had to choose either your happy reality or the misery of someone based on your deeds ?
That's because you don't understand the nature of reality or my post. That what you owe to reality, not to humanity ? Humanity is as real as well. So isn't Howards statement not quite egoistic ?
I'm having trouble relating this to the quote. You seem to have a different view on it that I frankly, don't understand. Same with Albert Ellis. You didn't either answer the very good question of Lunar. He asked you about your personal outlook on the subject.
You lost me. Sorry. I have no idea what this has to do with the subject here. same here
Yes it's a problem. But you don't need to find it according to Ellis. All you need to do is start thinking rationally.
Hey that shouldn't be a problem for you. That is exactly, why I started participating in that thread, turning this to you, formerly.
So,I have already responded to this.. No, you did not. The quote is about the discrepancy of humanity and egoistical reality. Your answers skidded always around that discrepancy and you didn't post your personal answer related to that.
OK here we go.
1)A false responsibility would be something like. If I don't go to Joes wedding then I'm not a good person because he really needs me there for support, even though I hate weddings and his bride.
2) I would choose my happy reality. My real happiness has never caused harm to anyone else, although many sure thought I should be different for their convenience.
3)You misunderstand this. Reality vs humanity's shoulds and musts.
4)As I said I don't understand the question.
Finally I'm afraid you don't understand this concept at all the way I do. Reality isn't egotistical, that's human, Reality is just reality.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OldWoodSpecter
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: Icelander]
#5597352 - 05/06/06 10:04 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: 1)A false responsibility would be something like. If I don't go to Joes wedding then I'm not a good person because he really needs me there for support, even though I hate weddings and his bride.
All responsibilities are like that, you can't put them in two groups like you do. Either all are false or not. Because every responsibility fits the above description
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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Icelander
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A real responsibility is one that you have accepted for yourself by free will or that you have created for yourself, as in having children and then caring for them. A false responsibility would be bowing to pressure from the community to take your children to church because they think that's responsible even though you don't believe church would be good for your children and you don't believe in god.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (05/06/06 10:10 AM)
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: Icelander]
#5597592 - 05/06/06 11:55 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Others thinking of your responsibility is not your responsibility. I even don't know, because I have forgotten, what others thought for me to be responsible of  Either, you are responsible or not, as woody said. 3)You misunderstand this. Reality vs humanity's shoulds and musts. Quote:
You owe everything to Reality and nothing to humanity
That sounds really different. Also, humanity is a part of reality. Very artificial constructed case, far from natural reality what VH did there and that is why I can't understand him. [I collected many quotes from his site, but every one is wicked, biased and twisted as the one above] But if it feeds you, may it be, as it be. I thought I would have known you better.
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Icelander
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5597598 - 05/06/06 11:59 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I thought I would have known you better.
Guess you were wrong.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Something to think about. [Re: Icelander]
#5597675 - 05/06/06 12:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Obviously
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