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Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Don't be fooled.
    #5580678 - 05/02/06 08:18 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

For those who have ears let them hear.

Don't be fooled by anyone (including yourself) that they/you have a handle on any Ultimate truth. Just because someone mouths the same robotic statements, over and over (from a book or whatever) with seeming utter certainty, than doesn't mean that they are sure of anything at all. In fact dear Shroomerites it's the opposite. They are dogmatic because they live constantly in fear of uncertainty, and they do not have the character to face uncertainty (often because of lack of true love and support in their formative years) Their fear is so strong that they cannot consider anything outside of their fear based beliefs and often must condemn (based on their beliefs) anyone who disagrees with them. This includes your girlfriend, your best friend, me, your parents, your school, the church and all religious folk,(including new age) and any so called scientific perspective that wants to tell you something is without a doubt true.

I suggest you trust your own intuition and take a logical look at all these pretenders before you give in to fear based pressure to conform (or else). If you don't you will have limited the scope of your life experience greatly, and all so you won't have to feel how things really are. IMO uncertainty is not nearly as bad as what most people tell you they are certain of. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Don't be fooled. [Re: Icelander]
    #5580761 - 05/02/06 09:04 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Indeed. Ultimate Reality, the Self, God, whatever name you choose to use, I don't think It can be objectively known. That is, I don't think It can be an object of knowledge. Only by agnosia (unknowing) can we know It. Paradoxical almost, eh?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
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Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Don't be fooled. [Re: Icelander]
    #5580765 - 05/02/06 09:06 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

IMO uncertainty is not nearly as bad as what most people tell you they are certain of.

Indeed, and conversely, rational certainty is not nearly as bad as what most people tell you should irrationally uncertain of.

Don't be fooled by the fools who attempt to convince you that certainty is impossible in this world, for they [usually] are typically operating under an out-of-context definition of certainty, or [rarely] are simply immoral and evil as they come. Omnniscience is impossible, but contextual certainty is a very necessity for every living being that wishes to live their life to the fullest - and that I am quite certain of.

At every stage of cognitive development, One has a specific cognitive context; he knows something, but not everything. Only on the basis of this delimited knowledge can One gain new knowledge.

On the whole of the human population, very few are cognizant of the importance of relating a new idea to the full context - of seeking to reduce the idea to the data of sense and to integrate it with the rest of one's conclusions. Once these logical requirements have been met, the idea has been validated. If One evades relevant data; or if, defaulting on the process of logic, he jumps from the data to an unwarranted conclusion; then of course his conclusion does not qualify as knowledge. But if he does consider all the available evidence, and he does employ the method of logic in assessing it, then his interpretation must be regarded as valid.

Logical processing of an idea within a specific context of knowledge is necessary and sufficient to establish the idea's truth.

The point is that One cannot demand omniscience. One cannot ask: "How do I know that a given idea, even if it has been proved on the basis of all knowledge men have gained so far, will not be overthrown one day by new information as yet discovered?" This is plaint is tantamount to the declaration: "Human knowledge is limited; so we cannot trust any of our conclusions." And this amounts to taking the myth of an infinite God as the epistemological standard, by reference to which man's consciousness is condemned as impotent.

Hmph! Don't let 'em fool you, my friends.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
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Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
Re: Don't be fooled. [Re: Icelander]
    #5581411 - 05/02/06 01:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, don't be fooled by those who see contextual truth as absolutes.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: Don't be fooled. [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5581444 - 05/02/06 01:13 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Consider that three men find truth.

Each of them fervently writes about it.

They all know truth, but will their writings be the same?

I don't really think so.

Now confound this by language.

Say a man speaking Greek, a man speaking Arabic, and a man living in present time America find truth.

They really truely find truth. Then they write about it.

First of all, now they are going to be vastly different truths because no matter how well you can translate, you will still lose things.

Now consider the plight of the man who only speaks English.... when faced with an arabic translation he is not reading the truth that the Arab found.... no because to the Arab
truth is this :zzyzyzhhhhhhfhhfhfhf
and if someone were to take: zzyzyzhhhhhhfhhfhfhf
and change it around to : jjjuuufufhfhhfhfhfhf
the Arab man, not knowing what jjjuuufufhfhhfhfhfhf would be appalled.... this is not my truth! He would say.

So the English man is not reading the Arab man's truth. He is reading a translation of it. And so he reads the Greek man's truth..... and maybe it makes more or less sense.... but then he reads the western man's truth.... now here is a language he can understand and connect with.

But what if truth is Z?
And the arab write z as X.
And the greek writes z as Y
and the western man writes z as XYT?
There is truth in Y. There is truth in X. There is truth in XYT. But ultimately truth is Z, which, when attempted to be written about, no longer serves as being that which is true.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (05/02/06 01:13 PM)


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OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: Don't be fooled. [Re: Icelander]
    #5581549 - 05/02/06 01:48 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

dont be fooled by those who claim that truth is unnattainable or non existent either.


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OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Don't be fooled. [Re: Icelander]
    #5581663 - 05/02/06 02:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Iron Pyrite:

Don't be fooled!


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Don't be fooled. [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5581680 - 05/02/06 02:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

One cannot ask: "How do I know that a given idea, even if it has been proved on the basis of all knowledge men have gained so far, will not be overthrown one day by new information as yet discovered?"

Why not? Science depends on such questions. The true test of a hypothesis is not whether it can gain evidence, something nearly any hypothesis can easily do, but whether it can resist falsification. (Not to be confused with being unfalsifable.) Much 'knowledge' has been overthrown by new information.

"Human knowledge is limited; so we cannot trust any of our conclusions."

We can trust scientific conclusions as the best information we currently have available, but I think it is quite irrational to believe in them religiously. Conclusions should always be open to future evidence that may falsify them and, since I cannot honestly predict the future, I'd be a charlatan to claim that a conclusion will definitely not be falsified eventually.


Edited by MushmanTheManic (05/02/06 02:59 PM)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Posts: 6,697
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Re: Don't be fooled. [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5581709 - 05/02/06 03:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

...because science is strongly contextual, too.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Don't be fooled. [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5581822 - 05/02/06 03:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

yer contextual


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Don't be fooled. [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5581876 - 05/02/06 03:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

of course. Typing needs ego :lol:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: Don't be fooled. [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5581936 - 05/02/06 04:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

what if you auto-type and undergo ego-dissolution while doing so?


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
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Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
Re: Don't be fooled. [Re: leery11]
    #5582018 - 05/02/06 04:30 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Then you will not be able to take any responsibilities for that writing, becaue it is out of your context.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
Re: Don't be fooled. [Re: Icelander]
    #5582060 - 05/02/06 04:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Icelander, surely you have spoken ultimate truth. May we kneel as we bask in the light of such ultimate wisdom.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
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Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
Re: Don't be fooled. [Re: leery11]
    #5582253 - 05/02/06 05:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
what if you auto-type and undergo ego-dissolution while doing so?




The fact that something is not done consciously means that there isn't a mental process that makes decisions on how to act? :wtf:

:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: Don't be fooled. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5582267 - 05/02/06 05:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

leery11 said:
what if you auto-type and undergo ego-dissolution while doing so?




The fact that something is not done consciously means that there isn't a mental process that makes decisions on how to act? :wtf:

:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:



???

I've heard of people that channel through their typing... don't seem to be doing it of conscoius volition.

But what I was meaning was like the musician who isn't really playing per se, they are just automatically doing things and going with the flow......

you can type like that. the ideas come from somewhere but you're just churning them out without really putting anything into them at all just seeing what comes.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
Re: Don't be fooled. [Re: leery11]
    #5582319 - 05/02/06 05:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
But what I was meaning was like the musician who isn't really playing per se, they are just automatically doing things and going with the flow......

you can type like that. the ideas come from somewhere but you're just churning them out without really putting anything into them at all just seeing what comes.




I'm asking what the ego has to do with any of this. I guess I must first ask what you mean when you refer to the ego. A musician is able to enter a state of mind wherein they do not need to consciously think in order for the playing to be produced through them; however, they have created a subconscious program that has resulted from their previous playings and the decisions they made then.

There is much ambiguity involved with the word "ego". I personally refer to it as a mental sense of self. Dissolution of one's sense of self? Certainly, and no inability to function effectively will result in situations, such as the performance of a musician, any task that one has experience carrying out, essentially.

Naturally, a sense of self, in itself (:grin:), has no negative attribute, and does not obstruct one's experience or behavior in any way. It is simply a mental "acknowledgement" (in a sense) of the self, that which is directly perceived and experienced.

The self does not require a mental sense of the self in order to participate in reality, to be the self. :wink:

:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Don't be fooled. [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5582445 - 05/02/06 06:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Icelander, surely you have spoken ultimate truth. May we kneel as we bask in the light of such ultimate wisdom.




You may. If you must.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBasilides
Servent ofWisdom
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Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
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Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Don't be fooled. [Re: Icelander]
    #5582458 - 05/02/06 06:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I got some of it figured out for myself


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Don't be fooled. [Re: Deviate]
    #5582469 - 05/02/06 06:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
dont be fooled by those who claim that truth is unnattainable or non existent either.




What is truth?

While I don't know if it is unattainable or non existant I also don't know anyone who knows this. If you have to believe in "truth" believe in the one you decide on, free from any fear or greed, but even then you will not know if your truth is ultimately true or not.

So if you have some basis for your statement. Lets have it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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