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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
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Re: dear god [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5581363 - 05/02/06 12:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

God is about the total pattern. Ego can see only narrow parts of it.


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
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Re: dear god [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5581420 - 05/02/06 01:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Something makes me think that what most people construe as "worship" is anything but.....

making glorious holy music and attaining a meditational state and giving that to others.... that is worship.

Praying and meditating very deeply so that you may sense the presence of "God" and commune.... that is worship.

Being overcome with the beauty of life and transcending ego-games..... that is worship.

but sitting in a church having a book read to you, which uses a language somewhat irrelevant to modern times, and then being lead in a simple recitation of MERE WORDS!!! I don't think that is worship.

You can use the Bible for "worship" in a sense of meditating deeply upon the text....... but words are a human construct and can only take you so far, you have to go INWARD to worship properly.... and once you do what use do words have of you?

Saying "I love you God" isn't even remotely as beneficial as actually truly with every fiber of your being BEING LOVE....... if you ARE love...... then there's no need to sit around talking about it, now it's time to turn it back on to the world right?

Not to say there isn't a "God" it just seems like we personify this concept from our narrow understanding of that which lies inward in all of us.... that which we all share on the most spiritual and high levels..... so praying is one way.... but experiencing and BEING and allowing transformation is the "better" way.... and that is worship.

Buying a homeless man food is worship....... not because you are obligated but because it pulls on your compassion and you feel tender warmth and kindness for him....... that is worship......

and what you do with that, if you want to attribute it to metta, or you want to attribute it to Jesus or the Father... and so in doing you may go through gestures such as "Thank you Lord for this" that's fine..... or you may just stay silent and bask in love...... more of a Buddhist approach, cut all the words out, just go experience God for what it is without expectations......

the notion of controlled, unthinking, dogmatic "worship" is not correct I would say...... the God that so desires to be worshipped that he gets "angry" or "jealous" is simply OUR GOD our inner temple that we have defiled and even forgotten that it exists... so no wonder it's "angry" well "it" isn't... it's more like "we" are and we translate those limited understandings to "God"

but God is just... that which is........ by putting a label around it you now have the "essence" of God but you no longer have God, because God cannot be contained......

who knows anything!

This is just what I'm saying and maybe there may be some rightness in it..... or maybe you have to go to church a lot and read the Bible all the time and pray only to Jesus and it doesn't matter that his name used to be Joshua or Yeshua or Jesu .... you have to call him Jesus....... and it doesn't matter if God used to be Yahweh or Jehova, you have to call him God....

see where the problem of words is? Jesus may indeed be..... but not necessarily like people think... not necessarily even "Jesus" or a "person" but still real..... real in the sense of compassion...... real in the sense of a man standing up for what is right, helping out others, and trying to turn other people on to the God frequency, the Christ-Consciousness.....

but I just think the most likely place to find Jesus is in your own heart, not in a book that is somewhat contradictory and hard to understand.

lessons? Morals? Morals are for people who haven't tried to develop their own morals, that need to be told what to do.... it's more of a rigid way of attaining spiirtuality... it works... but the other way is through the direct realization of COMPASSION and LOVE and once you realize that you will come to the same conclusions Jesus did.... it's the same thing as "accepting Christ" I would wager......

sort of a universal religion where any differences and conflicts are man-created, not God created. God, Allah, Tao, NO GOD (Buddhism and other such religions), it's all God...... humanism.

"Kindness is my religion" - Dalai Lama.
How can we know? How can we trust ourselves to know? Those who know try to teach, but those they teach to DO NOT KNOW and those who DO NOT KNOW are the ones who take the teachings and distort them and start weird rituals and churches and social institutions........

cut out the middle man, go to God on your own...... so maybe that means going to a church and worshipping as Christians do, but you'd better be careful to find a church where people are full of love, not dogma and fear and confusion....

great help can be found in a Sangha..... but it needs to be done properly...... so yeah.............

talking onward and onward.......... rambling about and away.

Maybe some of this is correct. It seems it to me....... but I am not divorced from the fear of being wrong.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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Offlinemikeownow
Humungus fungus

Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 2,856
Loc: WA,USA
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Re: dear god [Re: leery11]
    #5581475 - 05/02/06 01:20 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

God doesnt exist.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: dear god [Re: mikeownow]
    #5581520 - 05/02/06 01:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You mean, he doesn't exist in your mind ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineTheGus
The Walrus

Registered: 09/07/05
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Re: dear god [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5582115 - 05/02/06 04:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

god has been shown to me... quite frankly im not impressed

now, the universal consciousness is fucking brilliant and quite honestly im glad i did not gaze upon it with my physical eyes because im sure i would have been blinded, however my non-physical eyes did the trick.. even if it was only once for an immesurabley small amount of time (actually i was out of the flow of time at the moment so... it was literally no time at all)

god and the devil are powerful, but their just tools, just like me... o well




o, and fearfect (think thats your name)

try praying, if you can't hear someone respond you definately aren't crazy enough to be human (were a pretty crazy bunch of conscious entities) and if that dont work, start praying to lucifer, because i assure you he's real and with any luck you will end up meeting a demon or two before too long (they offer you proof if your willing to learn some truths)

i suggest you research into astral projection firstly, the path you desire shall find you in time however

-peace


--------------------
"It is easier to teach a computer to play chess than to build a mudpie."Sherry Turkle Life on the Screen: Identity in the Age of the Internet
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts"-Einstein
:mrt: I pity the fool who break traffic laws with $870,000 of drugs in the car.      -mo0nlite_sonata
Psythos


Edited by TheGus (05/02/06 05:12 PM)


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: dear god [Re: mikeownow]
    #5582278 - 05/02/06 05:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mikeownow said:
God doesnt exist.




Just because you don't have a conscious relationship with God doesn't mean that He does not exist.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: dear god [Re: Basilides]
    #5582323 - 05/02/06 05:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Perhaps he meant it in the Nietzschean "God is dead" sense?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: dear god [Re: dblaney]
    #5582349 - 05/02/06 06:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I never understood what Neitzche meant by that


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: dear god [Re: Basilides]
    #5582378 - 05/02/06 06:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

""God is dead" is not meant literally, as in, "God is now physically dead;" rather, it is Nietzsche's method of explicating how God has ceased to be a reckoning force in people's lives, even if they do not recognize it. Thus, as further propounded by Nietzsche, it is necessary that individuals go beyond normative considerations of God and morality, due to what the values of Christian morality signify, in both thought and action."

This reminds me of a funny shirt. On the front it says:

"God is dead."
- Nietzsche

and on the back it says:

"Nietzsche is dead."
- God

:grin:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: dear god [Re: Basilides]
    #5582387 - 05/02/06 06:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
I never understood what Neitzche meant by that



He meant that God is dead as a source of morality. He saw that people were no longer turning to the church or the bible as their source of moral guidance, and he feared that this would lead to nihilism. So he set out to establish a philosophy that would prevent nihilism in a world where God is dead.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: dear god [Re: dblaney]
    #5582392 - 05/02/06 06:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Hah

I saw that shirt before. And Dr. Hoeller joked about it in an audio lecture once.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Offlinequillini
one meanmotorscooter
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Registered: 04/18/06
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Re: dear god [Re: fearfect]
    #5582461 - 05/02/06 06:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I still need to read this thread, but dude, I know EXACTLY what you mean. I'm at that point myself, though it's been protracted over many years. This is serious shit, probably the single biggest reason my fiancee and I broke up. It's not that I look down on Christians; in a way I envy them and wish I felt what they feel. But I don't. I grew up believing, and I would stil believe if I was able to understand it or if it touched me in a way different from, say, Santa Claus or some shit. It's hard losing faith, and it would be nice if Christians understood what someone goes through when they really wrestle with the concept of God. But since most Christians never question it, we have no common ground where we can understand each other.


--------------------
No; truth, being alive, was not halfway between anything. It was only to be found by continuous excursions into either realm, and though proportion is the final secret, to espouse it at the outset is to insure sterility.

Only connect...


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: dear god [Re: fearfect]
    #5583371 - 05/02/06 09:42 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

If you had even a glimpse of the outer radiance, you'd fall on your face and worship. You don't have a clue to the Experience. It's all an intellectual exercise and about ego for you. You just don't get it.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinequillini
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Re: dear god [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5583536 - 05/02/06 10:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
If you had even a glimpse of the outer radiance, you'd fall on your face and worship. You don't have a clue to the Experience. It's all an intellectual exercise and about ego for you. You just don't get it.




Of course he doesn't get it. He's been saying over and over that he doesn't get it. Have you ever experienced wanting so badly to feel something that you see others feel, that gives them peace, before which they would bow with fear and trembling and recognize as the almighty? Have you experienced the sickening aloneness of an empty universe, calling out to God and always getting an away message?

Maybe this universe is connected, maybe there is a God, but God is so brutal and arbitrary, it often seems fruitless to appeal to him. I mean, God lets millions of people in Africa starve to death and die of AIDS. What makes you think he gives a shit about your prayer or mine? It's all either random and meaningless, or this vengeful, jealous, cruel, unjust, and most unrighteous God has found a good bunker to hide in.

You don't know what someone has experienced, and it is entirely possible you're the one not getting it.


--------------------
No; truth, being alive, was not halfway between anything. It was only to be found by continuous excursions into either realm, and though proportion is the final secret, to espouse it at the outset is to insure sterility.

Only connect...


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Invisiblefearfect
Registered: 01/15/04
Posts: 1,845
Loc: Flag
Re: dear god [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5584087 - 05/02/06 11:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"the outer radiance"

Would it be so much to ask for some of you to define the terms you use? Criticise me all you want for not understanding, but please, I am a realist; I need to know what you are talking about. What is "the outer radiance" or the "Experience"?

If "its all about ego", I need you to define what "it" is. What is all about ego? Tell me, what is it that I am not experiencing?

Are there any ascended masters here? Is there anyone who understands existence in a universal consciousness?

I'm just throwing out bones, but if you think you understand some higher power or consciousness, I'd be glad to hear you out. I just need you to be as REAL as possible. Don't talk in circles or give out "mumbo jumbo" cliche says or speak with a cryptic tongue. I need step by step instructions in the realest way possible.

So far in my study, Crowley's Book 7 on step by step meditation and enlightenment has been almost exactly what i'm looking for. He promises when and describes the experiences that the practitioner will go through regarding control of the mind. I'm not going to get too deep into this here, but if anyone can point me to similar readings i'd be very interested.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: dear god [Re: fearfect]
    #5584323 - 05/03/06 12:42 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You are using the ego the fathom the egoless. You are using rationality to fathom the transrational. It seems to me that you're trying to know God on an impossible empirical level, not the heart. There is no step by step process. Spirituality is not a mechanical process. It is deep love, to fall in love, to become love.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
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Re: dear god [Re: Basilides]
    #5584402 - 05/03/06 02:36 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
You are using the ego the fathom the egoless. You are using rationality to fathom the transrational. It seems to me that you're trying to know God on an impossible empirical level, not the heart. There is no step by step process. Spirituality is not a mechanical process. It is deep love, to fall in love, to become love.




:thumbup:


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OfflineSporetacus
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Registered: 04/19/06
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Re: dear god [Re: Deviate]
    #5584408 - 05/03/06 02:48 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

You are using the ego the fathom the egoless.




So? I can fathom my egoless car engine (using rationality). What does that have to do with anything?


--------------------
I'm Sporetacus!


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: dear god [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5584481 - 05/03/06 04:22 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Can you become your car engine?


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Invisiblefearfect
Registered: 01/15/04
Posts: 1,845
Loc: Flag
Re: dear god [Re: Basilides]
    #5584616 - 05/03/06 06:47 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Last I checked, "Love" is a chemical reaction in your hypothalamus. It can be distorted and triggered off randomly in cases.


I don't think "transrational" is a word, perhaps you meant to cleverly disguise "irrational", and if you claim that god (being what i was seeking) is irrational, then my search was still for naught.

you're right, I do need something concrete. something logical.

what I really don't need is to hear that this god everyone talks about is just a feeling, i.e. something that is not real; something they know so very little about, yet still manage to become hopelessly attached (re: in love) with it.

Before I personally commit anything to anything, my first edict is that it must exist and I must either know that it exists or have strong reason for it to exist by way of well-deserved trusted authority (authority meaning one who has 'supposed' higher insight into something relative to me. There are very few of these people that I personally hold). Jesus was this authority for many people. Muhammad for others. To garnish my respect, this so called "authority" or teacher must show and explain to me a logical and methodical approach to this being and/or utopia.

for example, Jesus' "believe and love in me" version of reaching his nirvana is not methodical or concrete in any way. It cannot be tested, there is nothing but unmeasurable "feelings" at stake here. What threshhold of loving or believing in Jesus does one need to get to heaven? 50%? .0001%? 100%? Surely no mortal can believe or love something absolutely completely.


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