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OfflineMicrocosmatrix
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Re: "The day without illigal immigrants" [Re: danlennon3]
    #5577210 - 05/01/06 12:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

danlennon3 said:
I still havent been outside... Is the world over yet?




Why yes, it ended last night at 2:29 A.M. eastern time.


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:orly:



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Offlinequillini
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Re: "The day without illigal immigrants" [Re: Stonerguy]
    #5577352 - 05/01/06 01:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Why is it that nobody mentions NAFTA? Ever since that got passed (making the US and Mexico a single economic bloc), poverty levels in Mexico have skyrocketed. Farmers couldn't trade at a fair price all of a sudden, because American farmers (with better technology) could produce more for less, and flooded the Mexican market with cheap crops. Now, the advantage the US has agriculturally is similar to the advantage Mexico has with labor. After Mexican farmland got bought up by US corporations, there emerged a class of landless ex-farmers who had nothing to trade on but their labor. And who needs labor? The US, of course, most of whose citizens are overqualified for such jobs. But the jobs still need to be done. There's tons of Mexican laborers, and they work cheap. Welcome to trade liberalization, ladies and gents. One of many logical conclusions of capitalism.

I say it's a good thing, and I take exception to the notion that Mexicans don't work. Whoever says this has their ethnic stereotypes confused. Blacks are the ones who don't work; Mexicans don't shower. Duh! Asians can't drive, Jews own the media. I mean, if you're going to be a racist, at least be consistent.

That's the problem with old-school Republicans. They're all for free trade, but they want to be racist at the same time. It just doesn't work that way. Sorry. Free trade means open borders, which means any preexisting economic disparity is bound to result in an influx of goods or labor, depending which side of the disparity you are on. If you want a secure border you shouldn't have free trade; you can't have both.


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No; truth, being alive, was not halfway between anything. It was only to be found by continuous excursions into either realm, and though proportion is the final secret, to espouse it at the outset is to insure sterility.

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OfflinegeokillsA
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Re: "The day without illigal immigrants" [Re: quillini]
    #5577560 - 05/01/06 02:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Interesting perspective regarding the NAFTA. I am not well versed on its impacts as it was implemented before I became politically active - however what you are saying does make sense, and I do agree that to have a truly secure border, the economy must be closed as well. Though this is not to say that I am for such strict design, and would actually prefer it if we, as noted above, formed one nation which would encompass all of North America, and ultimately the World, provided that we could figure out a way to dissuade human corruption and widespread inefficiency. Very tricky business life is, on a finite planet with an ever growing population..

inoculatedGreif: I do understand that we are a product of our environment, and that your perceptions of a specific race have been affected by your experience with members of that race - yet you still acknowledge that you "know it could happen with any other race" - so do you truly believe you are correct for being so quick to single them out, when there are members of every race causing problems which merit an equal amount of concern and impact on their surrounding micro-societies? I hope that you can one day see how unfair it is to pigeonhole a group of people for the actions of a select few, even if those negative actions are more readily apparent in your immediate environment.


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Invisibleeligal
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Re: "The day without illigal immigrants" [Re: quillini]
    #5577571 - 05/01/06 03:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

quillini said:
Blacks are the ones who don't work; Mexicans don't shower.  Duh!  Asians can't drive, Jews own the media.  I mean, if you're going to be a racist, at least be consistent.





:lol:


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\m/ Spanksta \m/

"do you have the freedom to do with your nervous system what you want?"

"MolokoMilkPlus said:
I'll respect you if you let me give you a blow job"

"tactik said:
respect the can."



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InvisibleStonerguy
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Re: "The day without illigal immigrants" [Re: geokills]
    #5577615 - 05/01/06 03:13 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Man I'm really torn on this. I visited one of my old high school teachers today, he was depressed as hell. One of his students is an illegal, but she works her fucking ass off. It really isn't her fault that her parents moved here illegally, what could she do? He showed me her school record or whatever and the lowest grade she had was a 95. For the past 3 days he has talked to countless immigration dep. people and even a senator. They all had the same solution "She has to go back to Mexico and start the immigration process." He even offerd to adopt her, but that dosn't work b/c that would only work if she was under 14. If you didn't know getting accepted as a citizen can take as long as 7 years.

I don't know man any decision that we make sounds like we will be biting into a big shit sandwich.


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yawn...
SG


Edited by Stonerguy (05/01/06 03:14 PM)


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InvisibleOJK
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Re: "The day without illigal immigrants" [Re: Stonerguy]
    #5577631 - 05/01/06 03:20 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

marry her


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OfflineLeanin
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Re: "The day without illigal immigrants" [Re: OJK]
    #5577825 - 05/01/06 04:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

how bout a country without illegals....that would be cool.

as i see it, i will be a minority (caucasian) in less than 20 years....which is totally fucked.


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: "The day without illigal immigrants" [Re: geokills]
    #5578040 - 05/01/06 04:56 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Hey Geokills I can give you several reasons to be pissed off about this issue............reason that justify my position.

I just moved to Las Vegas in August of 2005. I used to live in northern Michigan. So I was never really exposed to the " Mexican problem " I think my opinion will be a good even ground for a comparison between the America without illegals and with.


First.......... Education. I tried to get my daughter enrolled in the local school guess what ? I couldn't there was no room .....WHY ?

The principal of the school had no problem explaining it to me. She had far to many illegal students in her school. The illegal parents have the rights to let there kids go to school. So now I have to drive across town twice a day for my AMERICAN born child to go to school. Bullshit dude Bullshit. I pay taxes for a education etc..... Not taxes for criminals to have rights........I know the kids are not criminals but see the point. Second fact about school I send my child to. They are forcing my child to learn Spanish..... FORCING HER !! She can not graduate without this requirement. This really pisses me off...........why ? There is no requirement for the illegal kids to learn ENGLISH........This is a fact not some crap but FACT. My sister in law lives in El Paso TX..........Get this, the high school her kids go to have a population of 40 % illegal students. They drive in everyday from Mexico and drive home everyday. BUT THE SCHOOL IS REQUIRED TO DO THIS ?????? Now as of this year her kid had his art and music programs cut way back. They lost their football team..........you know why ? Too many students not enough cash.......Seriously what the fuck is wrong with this picture ...............As A PARENT I AM NOT HAPPY. There is more to this but you get the idea.



Second...........Jobs

It was said once in this thread but.........I have been helping a good friend here in Vegas with his plastic molding plant. I am kinda like problem solver in a suit:lol: Anyway one problem I see is the fact that he has been thrown into hiring Mexicans because they will work for 6 bucks an hour. He has a handful of Americans that get paid 3 or 4 times more..........I am trying to get him to understand that hiring illegals is illegal..but his financial situation has been built around this huge mistake. Too late he tells me ...........What ever:rolleyes: Point is this the jobs these people are taking are forcing our business owners to make mistakes for profit..........a mistake for sure but understandable. Profit is the key in business right ? SO the jobs that would normally be paid a decent wage are being converted to Slave wages. Mexicans are a Slave class ......simple logic really. I think this problem is as serious as the slave problem that Lincoln had to deal with.


I agree this problem is very complex .............



I think it will lead to a Mexican/ American one Continent country. I see no other choice how ever longs or by what ever means it takes.



Since we invade the private rights of counties all over the globe.....................Lets just inform Mexico there are now U. S. Property..................:lol:



Anyway............The problem I see in Vegas are far reaching and too numerious to list but..............I never seen any of this shit in Michigan................Or shitty paper in so many bathrooms..........Nasty little fuckers


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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OfflineMicrocosmatrix
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Re: "The day without illigal immigrants" [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #5578166 - 05/01/06 05:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Since we invade the private rights of counties all over the globe.....................Lets just inform Mexico there are now U. S. Property..................




The Mexicans would all start partying like crazy and jumping for joy if we did that. We would then have to upgrade their entire country to modern technological and sanitary conditions.


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:orly:



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OfflinegeokillsA
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Re: "The day without illigal immigrants" [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #5578169 - 05/01/06 05:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You do make valid points fucknuckle - however if I may..

> Education

Education has been suffering in this country for considerably longer than our "mexican problem" has been an issue. Our government simply doesn't seem to believe that delegating funds towards educating our youth is worth all that much. I realize that this is sidestepping the issue somewhat, but not entirely - as while the influx of immigrants may be contributing to the problem of congestion in our schools, there is also a very real fundamental problem in terms of the priority that education gets in our governments. Can you imagine if the $8 billion we are spending per month on a useless war were being put towards education? We could have one hell of an intelligent populous with plenty of room for all of our kids and then some.. but sometimes political decisions are not made for the common good. As for your having to drive across town to get your kid in school, that is a small price to pay. Your child is not being denied their education, even if you may need to put a little more effort into getting them there.


> They are forcing my child to learn Spanish.....

Consider for one thing, that we have no legally defined national language on our books (ie. the US Code). Therefore, is it not reasonable to teach a language (any language) that may be predominate and/or significant in a given region of our country, states, or cities? If I sent my child to school in "Little Italy" - I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they were forced to learn Italian. Likewise, if you live in an area with a large Spanish-speaking population, your child learning Spanish may indeed be a great asset during their growth and employment years. For that matter, I know that not anywhere close to all schools force children to learn Spanish, even though very many do in fact require adolescents to study at least one foreign language for two years minimum. I think this is a great thing, as learning a new language - any language - will increase your child's brain power as well as open new opportunities in terms of employment in the future.

> the high school her kids go to have a population of 40 % illegal students.
> They drive in everyday from Mexico and drive home everyday.
> BUT THE SCHOOL IS REQUIRED TO DO THIS ??????


I do not believe schools are required to do that by any means, and in fact are not even supposed to. What I do believe is happening is that these children are virtually "squatting" upon the address of a local resident, thereby attaining entry to the school district. Having grown up myself in a highly prized school district, I am very familiar with students (including friends of mine) who lived up to 35 miles away, yet made an agreement with a local to list their address as the child's permanent address, such that their child would be eligible for the given district. If these students were found out, they would be expelled from the district plain and simple. Unfortunately, due again to the vast underfunding of our education system, there were little resources to go after these "squatters". My point is, this happens all the time - regardless of race - when people want a better education for their kids. If our government would properly allocate money for education resources, I'd be that the school to which you refer in El Paso would quickly clamp down on students whom do not live within the district lines.

> Second...........Jobs
> I have been helping a good friend here in Vegas with his plastic molding plant
> thrown into hiring Mexicans because they will work for 6 bucks an hour
> but his financial situation has been built around this huge mistake.
> Too late he tells me ...........


You've in effect made my argument for me. It was your friend's choice to hire these non-documented workers in the first place (and might I add, putting himself at risk in the process). He has probably neglected (at least partially) other methods of making his business more efficient, because it is so much easier to simply hire cheap labor instead of working to improve your production line. This falls into why I am for the amnesty of all current immigrants, as they are already integrated into the system and will then be held to the minimum wage laws that all citizens are, thereby being placed on a level playing field with all other citizen workers. Sure even then, some Americans may not want to work for minimum wage where immigrants will - but that is not the immigrant's problem, they simply have a stronger work ethic than most Americans do.

Fight to raise minimum wage if that is your gripe, but realize that the increased expenditure is going to have a ripple effect, and therefore manifest itself in the products that you yourself consume. Your friend at the plastic molding plant is still going to hire the cheapest labor possible, whether they be illegal immigrants or citizens. If the illegals are given citizenship, then your friend will be required to pay minimum wage, and other Americans will have just as much incentive to take the job as any formerly non-documented worker - since they will both be eligible for the same pay. If the illegals stay illegal, well then other Americans will indeed get the shaft if the non-documented workers are willing to work for less than minimum wage. Just because some Americans don't want to work for minimum wage, again, is not the problem of the immigrants.


> these people are taking are forcing our business owners to make mistakes for profit

It may be an "understandable" mistake, since ultimately we are in a capitalistic society where cash flow and profit are the driving factors. Unfortunately, the responsibility of having made these mistakes still lies completely with the employer. If employers would play by the rules and practice ethical employment practices, this problem would not ever be an issue. Feel free to Blame Greed.

These are just my opinions; I do understand that you are emotionally invested in these arguments and I don't mean to be crass - but I just wanted to present a differing perspective you may not have considered.


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InvisibleStonerguy
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Re: "The day without illigal immigrants" [Re: geokills]
    #5578186 - 05/01/06 05:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I know in SC the schools HAVE to let illigals in. A elementary school not to far away is 47% hispanic with around 50% of them illigal so around 25% of that school are illigal aliens.


--------------------
yawn...
SG


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: "The day without illigal immigrants" [Re: geokills]
    #5578263 - 05/01/06 05:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I truly appericate you voice and the time you have put to respond to my post............Yes I see your points.....but I think they are very weak applied to my life.

Lets make some excuses for drunk drivers while were at it. I think ILLEGAL IS ILLEGAL simple really. I could give you several valid reason while we should just let people drive drunk or several reason while they should not be held responsable for killing my friend last year. Shit they sell beer in every store in America..........But I don't give drunk drivers any excuse.........

Just because this is a great country to better your life I give no excuse to illegal Mexicans. Nore do I give any excuse to my friend for hiring them in the first place..............A job is no reason to break the law.


Fact is there is LEGAL way to become a US citizen.


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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OfflinegeokillsA
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Re: "The day without illigal immigrants" [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #5578351 - 05/01/06 06:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Interesting about the South Carolina schools requiring admittance for illegals - that indeed seems absolutely ludacris, unless of course you are talking about children who were born here in the US, which grants them automatic citizenship.. but that is a large debate in and of itself.

Fucknuckle, we do agree that illegal is illegal. I certainly do not condone illegal immigration, or a completely open border (that is, unless there is a massive overhaul of world government). It is simply the fact that they have already integrated themselves into our society and economy, that it would be impractical and likely cost more money to attempt to remove them at this point.. and therefore, amnesty and taxation seems like the considerably more streamlined and less invasive policy to take now that we are where we are. Of course, I simultaneously want to see employers and the border regulated, such that we don't just keep handing out the amnesties every twenty years.


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Offlinesplifner180
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Re: "The day without illigal immigrants" [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #5578389 - 05/01/06 06:39 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

We're all aliens. I know it's been said but it bears repeating.

Me, I consider borders scars on the face of the earth. "This is ours" is just another way of saying "this isn't yours." And while I'm on a rant, national pride is just a way of saying "we're better." How can you be prideful of something you had absolutely no say in?

Last time I checked the planet was still round.

Me, I say let them in. If you can obey the laws and you pay your taxes, please, come.

splif


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: "The day without illigal immigrants" [Re: splifner180]
    #5578449 - 05/01/06 07:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

All Animals hold territory in one form or another. Man is no different. I agree we all live on this planet but to deny the fact of territorial instinctive behaviors due to long term survival and the facts of life is very ignorant :smirk:. And to say " we all share the space, let's all live in harmony " is complete bullshit and we might as well just also deny the fact that humans kill for food............

I think the posters who say these things, are out of touch with what is real just so they can " Feel good " about a dream world that has no real bearing on the real and crule world. Man is a beast who fucks, kills, fights for the best places to find food etc......

That is who we are face it or not. Our DNA dictates that we protect our space. The days of the hippie failed for a reason. The idea that the world is a "one shared place" is way out of touch with what is real.

Nice dream though..one which I at times share.


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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InvisibleStonerguy
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Re: "The day without illigal immigrants" [Re: splifner180]
    #5578693 - 05/01/06 08:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

splifner180 said:
Me, I say let them in. If you can obey the laws and you pay your taxes, please, come.

splif




Where does it end then? If we let them in what about 20 years down the line when there are 24 million illigals wanting to get in?

Also what about welfare? America already has a big problem with this. No not all 12 million will not try to get it, but remember they are starting from the ground up.


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: "The day without illigal immigrants" [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #5578818 - 05/01/06 08:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Fucknuckle said:
All Animals hold territory in one form or another. Man is no different. I agree we all live on this planet but to deny the fact of territorial instinctive behaviors due to long term survival and the facts of life is very ignorant :smirk:. And to say " we all share the space, let's all live in harmony " is complete bullshit and we might as well just also deny the fact that humans kill for food............

I think the posters who say these things, are out of touch with what is real just so they can " Feel good " about a dream world that has no real bearing on the real and crule world. Man is a beast who fucks, kills, fights for the best places to find food etc......

That is who we are face it or not. Our DNA dictates that we protect our space. The days of the hippie failed for a reason. The idea that the world is a "one shared place" is way out of touch with what is real.

Nice dream though..one which I at times share.




I see how that applies to the individual, to the family, and to the tribe (immediate community one engages communication with on a daily basis)
...............................

But, to the country? Seems more like an illusion, an imaginary creation designed to control masses of people by those who are after power.


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: "The day without illigal immigrants" [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5578926 - 05/01/06 09:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

My mum manages a computer store that had great sales yesterday.

You see, the mexicans are going to convince us of their power by letting us go a day without their economic input. In order to somehow hurt our business. Of course the fact that they all just stocked up the day before really undermines their point. Not only does it make them look weak, but I'll be damned if it doesn't balance out any damage their whiny selves accomplish today.

The reason this whole thing is a bad idea is because it draws into the light how unbeleivably ungrateful they are. America is not exactly a miserable place to be an illegal immigrant in. Lots of illegal immigrants manage to make a living here. Many have spent a large number of years here without being deported. A number of other countries would not be so forgiving of people who disregarded border laws. For example, if they snuck into russia like they did here, they'd find themselves being sentenced and sent to prison. Yes, russia actually considers it a punishable crime when people break immigration laws.

Here in the U.S. we just put them back into mexico and let them try again. We don't jail them like criminals, despite the fact that they knowingly broke our country's laws.

They have no respect for our government. To them it's an entity from whom they demand things be given to them. They are NOT willing to obey our laws, but they of course expect the laws to protect them. They are not willing to go through the legal process to become a citizen, but they still expect to be treated like citizens.

Many illegal immigrants are people who want to be given something that they weren't willing to earn. Not only that, but a large part of why mexico has become so horrid is because so many quitters leave the country and flee to america when things get tough. Instead of making their own country better they just run away and expect our country to take care of them. Mexico does not want it's citizens to keep flocking away and abandoning their country. America does not want to be flooded with illegal, undocumented immigrants. These people do not have respect for america, and they don't have respect for mexico. Their behavior causes far more harm than good and we should not reward them for what they have done.


--------------------

I find your lack of faith disturbing


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