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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: Tweaking PF jars for super fast colonization! [Re: fastfred]
    #5918447 - 07/31/06 12:33 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I did use a cloned substrain via LC on them... B+ strain, was only tested with that one particular culture - so I suppose different strains might react a little differently, never took it that far.

The jars were refrigerated as they reached full colonization, then birthed together in groups of controls & experimentals, as there was room for them in the FC.  it happened over the period of several weeks, so some of them were held under refrigeration for a few days, others were held for a few weeks.  the ones that colonized quicker obviously were refrigerated slightly longer than the ones that took longer, so who knows, the quicker pinning could be in part related to that if you believe in the cold-shock camp...  all of them experienced refrigeration for at least 24 hours so i think anything beyond that shouldn't have much effect anyway, a stalled jar is a stalled jar IMO...

I tested 10%, 25% and 50%.  10% was a barely noticable increase, not enough to attribute it to the addition of the coffee and could have been due to other variance.  25% there was a noticable increase.  50% gave me lots of problems, a good majority of the jars ended up with bacterial contamination - but not all, so I don't think it was the inoculant or sterilization procedures so much as the acidity making it more suceptible.  So 25% seemed to be a safe bet.  50% or even more might just work great if I could get them to reliably go, could have possibly been prevented with the addition of a pH buffer, assuming the jars became prime targets for the bacteria because of the acidity.

All this was really just an informal test for myself, well before I came up with this thread, never intended this to be a pf-coffee-cake thread :smile:  but i suppose i should have done a better job to back up the suggestion to use it way back when i made it in the first place.

i have gotten tons of PMs from people who have tried this, and many agree there was a noticable difference so i'm confident i don't stand alone here.  if anybody is feeling industrious it would be cool to see other concentrations of coffee tested... i just have some other projects at the moment and dont really intend on re-visiting it any time soon.  i'm happy enough with colonized pf jars consistently in 10 days flat. :smile:


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Tweaking PF jars for super fast colonization! [Re: creamcorn]
    #5918514 - 07/31/06 01:02 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks for the response. It seems like a pretty well done experiment. I think it was done well enough to be proof positive for me.

One thing I would point out, as far as experimental design goes, is that every jar has to follow the defined protocol.

While you could write the protocol to do it the way you did, you might be accused of using too lose of a protocol. You could just birth them at 100% and track the times for all of them, but assuming that you don't have precise temp control you could be accused of insufficiently controlling the environmental variables. To get around that you would have to log the temps and show a high P value for a temperature correlation.

IMO it would be best to split it into two experiments. One for colonization and one for fruiting speed. Then you'd have to start the non-coffee ones first with the right delay between them and the coffee ones to get them birthed at the same time.

Of course, that's a bit of work and I realize you weren't planning to publish this. Great experiment though, it's good to know that the coffee debate is more or less settled.


-FF


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: Tweaking PF jars for super fast colonization! [Re: fastfred]
    #5918580 - 07/31/06 01:30 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I've long been sold on coffee, well before ever trying to put it in cakes... my wbs grows get hydrated with coffee water, and more recently have been tossing used grounds into bulk subs... something about it is just easily digested by the whole fungi kingdom, look how quick your coffee pot will mold if you don't take the used grounds out!

an interesting read about how coffee farms are fertilized... they use so many of the same things to treat their soil as we do... manures, bloodmeal, bonemeal, fishmeal, seaweed, even coir... and, more recycled coffee.  :smile:  lots of nitrogen gets pumped into those fields, so it only stands to reason a lot of it ends up in the coffee beans themselves.  beneficial fungi and bacteria are used in the process to break down the nitrogen into forms usable by the coffee plants so perhaps that's part of the reason its already in the 'correct form'...


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Offlinetreeyei
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Re: Tweaking PF jars for super fast colonization! [Re: creamcorn]
    #5924195 - 08/02/06 01:43 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

about the two tub idea. I read this feelow say this: (((no need for an extra tub. Just add one more inch of geolite and another inch of water, then submerge the fish tank heater into the geolite . In fact i use one inch of geolite at bottom and two inches of perlite on top, i like perlite humidification much more than geolite when using this tubs.)))

What do you think of this idea as compared to two tubs?


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Everything I post (or have posted) on this website is fictional, even this sentence.


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: Tweaking PF jars for super fast colonization! [Re: treeyei]
    #5924782 - 08/02/06 09:03 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

i think you're describing a fruiting chamber, rather than an incubator, which are two very different things.  take a closer look and get the differences straight. :smile:


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OfflineDr_Weird
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Re: Tweaking PF jars for super fast colonization! [Re: creamcorn]
    #5946409 - 08/09/06 01:39 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I found out that coffee shaves at least 3-4 days off my colonization times (except for the stubborn b+). I've been using it ever since creamcorn linked to this thread from mine (thanks man!)
I use the 25/75 coffee to water approach, though another older thread talks about using 50/50. Anyways, I can only do my substrate work late at night so the coffee has two purposes! :biggrin:


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Offlinesoma_seeker
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Re: Tweaking PF jars for super fast colonization! [Re: Dr_Weird]
    #5946522 - 08/09/06 03:50 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

has anyone tried this with instant coffee? do u think there would be a significant difference?

sorry if covered elsewhere, didn't come across it.


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Offlineetam
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Re: Tweaking PF jars for super fast colonization! [Re: soma_seeker]
    #6013780 - 08/30/06 09:59 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I'm sure instant coffee would work fine.  It just doesn't taste so good. :smile:.

Quote:

soma_seeker said:
has anyone tried this with instant coffee? do u think there would be a significant difference?

sorry if covered elsewhere, didn't come across it.




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Offlinedampkring
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Re: Tweaking PF jars for super fast colonization! [Re: creamcorn]
    #6014939 - 08/31/06 09:52 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Great post! I swear by using 2cc rather than the standard 1cc. I don't know why I have never thought of using 5 holes. I am going to give this a try next time. I remove the tape after the first week and put a surgical mask over the tops (held with a rubber band.


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The poor have to labour in the face of the majestic equality of the law, which forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.

Existence would be intolerable if we were never to dream.

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Offlinemrsage
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Re: Tweaking PF jars for super fast colonization! [Re: dampkring]
    #6097265 - 09/24/06 11:51 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Thank you sir! I will definately try out the coffee trick on my next batch of jars.

Cheers!


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OfflinePr0_X
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Re: Tweaking PF jars for super fast colonization! [Re: mrsage]
    #6139519 - 10/06/06 06:18 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I have to correct something...

baking BRF is a bad idea, it will cook some of it and render it uselesss.
Also, it's just a waste of electricity. Sterilization of the jar's is enough to kill any mold spores/bacteria that land in the cake mixture.
Also, Straw water/hpoo water does not speed up cake colonization or produce larger flushes or do much of anything expect add another vector for contamination.

Havn't tryed the coffee yet but it sounds neato :smile:


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: Tweaking PF jars for super fast colonization! [Re: Pr0_X]
    #6139926 - 10/06/06 09:53 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

The point of the baking is to get the moisture out.  Do an experiment for yourself and weigh a bit of BRF then bake it as I suggest and weigh it again.  Remember that 1ml water = 1 gram.  You'll notice BRF out of the package contains a surprising amount of moisture.  If you live in a humid area and/or don't seal up your container of BRF well, it will absorb even more from the air.  Its a bit of a perfectionist thing but if you really want to nail your moisture content, its helpful to bake it to that totally dry baseline first.  That's the purpose of it... not to sterilize.  Like I said you get a head-start on the sterilization as a side effect, but the point is to dry it so you're working with the same level of moisture in your starting ingredients each time.

As for rendering it useless when cooked, that's not true either.  If that were true than all the cooked food you eat would be useless... not the case eh? :smile:  I can tell you for 100% certain it works even overcooked - one of the first times I baked my ingredients I had the heat way too high, the BRF turned a dark brown and smelled kinda off... just for experimentation sake I used it anyway, and I can tell you it colonized and fruited just fine.  So baking the BRF lightly and NOT to the point of browning/burning it as I explained, is certainly not a problem from a nutritive standpoint.  But trust me, I test and experiment with things thoroughly well before I ever suggest others try them. :smile:

Skip the pre-bake if its not for you, do whatever works (and it certainly works fine if you skip that step.)  Its just a little more "scientific minded" to assure you're using the same exact recipe each time and not leaving moisture content to chance, and I just prefer it from the consistentcy standpoint. :thumbup:


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Offlinekdmmontana
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Re: Tweaking PF jars for super fast colonization! [Re: creamcorn]
    #13683268 - 12/25/10 02:19 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

To the TS:

Ive used coffee in my BRF PF Jars and theyve all outmatched the others by far. After only 15 days (vs 25-30) after knocking the mycelia is already at the bottom of the Jar...

It works...:smile:


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Offlinewindowpaine
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Re: Tweaking PF jars for super fast colonization! [Re: kdmmontana]
    #13683309 - 12/25/10 02:34 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

LOL. My shrooms would like a vente half-caf please. I'm totally going to try a 25% coffee hydration next time.


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Offlinekdmmontana
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Re: Tweaking PF jars for super fast colonization! [Re: windowpaine]
    #13683522 - 12/25/10 03:49 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I think you should, I was amazed because I doubted that it would grow at all. Im making all my PF Jars with coffee from now on! :smile:

Someone should include this in a TEK:P


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OfflineCAP_TURTLE
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Re: Tweaking PF jars for super fast colonization! [Re: kdmmontana]
    #13683628 - 12/25/10 04:29 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not sure what your other factors are but, my jars fully colonize and consolidate for nearly a week in 15 days. No coffee. So maybe it was something else you did or if it seriously speeds it up, maybe there are other things you can tweak to drop that 15 days down to 10 i dont know. Just thought I'd share. The only time it took longer was when i tamped down my jars.


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InvisibleHar-Si-Ese

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Re: Tweaking PF jars for super fast colonization! [Re: CAP_TURTLE]
    #13683798 - 12/25/10 05:31 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I'm on day 16 right now and most of my BRF cakes (shot with LC) are almost done. Hey Cap, what temp are yours set at? I think that may be the difference in time between mine and yours. Just curious.


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OfflineCAP_TURTLE
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Re: Tweaking PF jars for super fast colonization! [Re: Har-Si-Ese]
    #13685787 - 12/26/10 07:48 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I kind of try for around 80 but tbh I dont know what temp they have been setting at for this last batch. I'll set a thermometer by them and check today. Do you tamp down your jars and what strain are you using. Maybe what you are using is known to be a slow colonizer. I'm gonna try messing around with some coffee my next round though, with pf cakes and grains, and i'll be sure to share my results with you.


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Offlinekdmmontana
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Re: Tweaking PF jars for super fast colonization! [Re: CAP_TURTLE]
    #13685984 - 12/26/10 09:24 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I think the variety im using is simply growing slower than others.
The variety im growing now is called "The Star Gazer" (some nickname), and its a cubensis. I think my main issue with the first batched was the temps. Now I have a metal safe, placed near a radiator that seems to keep a perfect temperature. I think it was the temps, but even before that they grew slightly faster.

I used honeywater and coffee for the last 7.

Im going to be more careful about temperature now:)

Im not sure what you mean about "tamp", but I assume its tape, there are two layers of microspore tape on my jars, as adviced. It doesnt seem to affect growing speeds at all. Rather they seem to be dependant on water and heat. The last batch had a slightly higher water content, im thinking its that, because the first 20 jars werent that wet. Just my guess..


Edited by kdmmontana (12/26/10 09:27 AM)


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OfflineCAP_TURTLE
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Re: Tweaking PF jars for super fast colonization! [Re: kdmmontana]
    #13686044 - 12/26/10 09:55 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

When I say "tamp" I'm refering to what is written in the original pf tek. It calls for you to fill the jars to the rim then tap the bottoms of the jars till the substrate level falls to 1/2" or so below the rim. I did this years ago and in my first set when i started again before i realised people weren't doing this anymore. I did another set of jars nearly 2 weeks later not doing this and both sets colonised fully at the same time.  Now as for your micropore taping the holes, I also experimented with this and not having the micropore tape over the holes (my holes are fairly small, the size of a small nail) provided for faster colonisation it seemed and even if it wasn't the micropore tape isn't necessary so long as you have the added dry verm layer and aren't playing with your jars too much(though I was often guilty of this and still had no problems). So to sum it all up if your "tamping" your jars, try not doing it.  And maybe try removing the micropore tape, although if it was me and my cakes were almost colonised I would just leave it on for this round as the added fae in your jar could cause premature pinning. It did for me but i also turned them upside down :/ also probably drawing in fresh air. Sorry for the book. lol


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