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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Talking with scientologists about drugs.
    #5574226 - 04/30/06 02:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

So I am walking dow the street in Vancouver after picking up a peyote button, and some Kratom etc.

And I see a guy waiting to be tricked by one of Scientologies little helpers, the man is sitting, and holdiong 2 things that look like tin cans connected to a machine, that looks like a bad fisherprice toy for babies, really ugly to.

I say... "its a scam, a way to make money, you have to pay to asscend though the levels", the man, already with looks of doubt on his face stands and leaves.

Then the little scientology guy comes up to me, his eyes are wild, and so wide, he almost looks insane, or like he is about to attack me, I am sure I see hate in his eyes, yet he is smiling, almost like Satan would smile, were he real (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

My GF tightens her grip on my arm as this little freak approches us, and honestly, althought he wasent very big, I was kinda scared to, he was creepy.

He tells me about how they have science, and I tell him that his machines "measure" forces that dont exist.
I explain that you can just "use the word science as if you are invoking truth itself"

"In science you strive for objective reasearch, you cant take your view of something, make something up , and call it science, science, only has power and meaning if its SCIENCE, not opinion!!
(sadly it would appear opinion in some cicrles is just as good as science these days (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) )

I tell him there is nothing wrong with being critical of psycology, but it should be healthy , not phobic.

He spits forths so much funny bullshit , what I really wish is that I would have picked up an mp3 player with voice record, I wish I had clips of this conversation, but I will talk to this guy again I have to, check some of this shit out.....................


"We wont even let people that have done LSD in their past into the highest levels of scientology, because LSD ruinds your mind"
I explain that its not ture, I talk about MAPS(.org) defend the use of mushrooms in cluster headaches, explain that for some people these drugs offer profund "religous" or spiritual experiences, and you cant just write off the experiences of other cultures, past and present, and people, around you.
I say all of this more or less, to no effect.

"we have programs to cleanse your mind of the MEMORIES of doing psychedelic mushrooms"

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
Well fuck ,thats comforting, now all of my problems are solved, all I have to do is pay a fee , and forget all of those good times with friends, the laughing, the insights, the highly philosophical mornings by myself, absorbing what took place the night before, all I have learned about myself, and other people.


I talked about L.Rons sons, no effect, the fact L.Ron just made it all up, and I hear the word SCIENCE again, as if the word, put in any context, used any way, still has meaning.

Thank god for ........................scientology? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)


He just cant understand, that what some people need is therapy, with a real doctor, and for some, even people with serious childhood trauma , LSD, etc etc, often HELP.

I would urge you all to read the amazing, but old, book Psychedelic drugs reconsidered.
There is a thread over at the shroomery with tons of great medical and psychological mushrooms info as well , I will copy some, even if I am .....preaching to the choir.


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Offlinetheuser
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #5574249 - 04/30/06 02:30 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I think LSD could ruin your brain if you did to much of it. I'm sorry you were assaulted.

If I had saw him coming towards my woman and me with a crazy look, I might have broke his nose. :shrug:


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:heart:


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InvisibleBLAST_420
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: theuser]
    #5574326 - 04/30/06 02:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I would have told the guy to fuck off and leave me alone, then I would have made fun of his BS right in front of him.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #5574341 - 04/30/06 03:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

This was one of my biggest problems with Scientology as well: the drugs issue.

But in Scientology's defense, "Therapy" is no more objective and scientific (the entire field of psychology/psychiatry for that matter) than an E-meter.

Mental Health "Science" often makes the mistake of using highly subjective things like emotions and generalized reactions as a constant. It is obvious to anyone that the term "attention span" is completely subjective, but a large portion of the world accepts it as a sound fact produced by rigorous scientific study.

If anything, Psychology is the study of the human mind within an ever expanding and changing society, which even then is impossible to nail down accurately and completely.

So I ask you as many of you sit here and scoff at "how stupid and gullible those Scieno's are" that you are no better, nor less gullible for placing belief into a pseudo-science.


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InvisibleNoetical
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5574354 - 04/30/06 03:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You have such a hard on for psych


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InvisibleStonerguy
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5574566 - 04/30/06 04:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
But in Scientology's defense, "Therapy" is no more objective and scientific (the entire field of psychology/psychiatry for that matter) than an E-meter.





I agree. I think it is more mind over matter type stuff, like you are going to a doctor for a reason so in your mind you tell yourself your getting better(Like when doctors prescribe antibiotics to people with a virus)


--------------------
yawn...
SG


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OfflineHarmonic_Order
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Stonerguy]
    #5575081 - 04/30/06 07:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Scientology, a wide-spread organization with "isolated incidents" of breaking and entering, intimidation of witnesses, extortion, blackmail, torture and mistreatment of its lower echelon (yes, I can cite source)
Yeah, sign me up for that
They came around here at the same time and place as the Lyndon LaRouche zanies
One of them approached me at the train station
At the time, I had a mohawk
I could only think of the hissing mohawk guy from Mad Max the Road Warrior
So I grimaced and hissed at her


--------------------
.oOo. Are you high? .oOo.
.oOo. You look like you're on some kind of drug .oOo.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Harmonic_Order]
    #5575266 - 04/30/06 08:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Can you show documented proof of convictions regarding your allegations that are from reliable new sources?

Im seriously interested.


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OfflineHarmonic_Order
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5575570 - 04/30/06 10:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

(sigh)
Yeah, I can.
Let me get the documents out, this may take a while.

You a Scientologist or something?

[edit] hold on--convictions? Well, let me take a look. But if you believe that strongly in our justice system, I hear Tim Leary got convicted of trying to brainwash America's youth. You believe that? I have sources citing historical documents, legal documents, personal accounts, etc. You have some vested interest in winning this conversation? Just curious.


--------------------
.oOo. Are you high? .oOo.
.oOo. You look like you're on some kind of drug .oOo.


Edited by Harmonic_Order (04/30/06 10:04 PM)


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OfflineHarmonic_Order
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Harmonic_Order]
    #5575791 - 04/30/06 11:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Okay, first part: intimidation of witnesses, malevolence towards underlings and blackmail.
Paul Krassner researched and wrote a book called "The Rise of Sirhan Sirhan in the Scientology Hierarchy."
He intended to reveal his discovery that Sirhan Sirhan, as well as Charles Manson, had both belonged to Scientology.
Krassner announced the intended publication, and the Church of Scientology slapped him with a "three-quarters of a million dollars lawsuit."
The Church then used the suit to leverage Krassner to print an apology article in "The Realist," a Scientologist-owned magazine, but Krassner didn't go for it.
Even before they levied the suit, he had decided not to publish the book.
It later came out in Scientologist records that the Church had earmarked Krassner for an "Operation Dynamite"--code meaning they intended to frame him for some crime as punishment.
Although they eventually rejected that plan, the fact that they even had a code for framing someone tells you a thing or two.

Also, a former member of Scientology's Sea Org, a flotilla of ships that L Ron fled to after legal troubles in the US, recounted his experience. After a lengthy listing of the questions that go along with that box with the wires, in his own words:

"All that information could certainly be used as a source for blackmail. Hubbard had based Scientology's file system on that used by the Nazi spy chief Richard Gehlen. The Ethics exam includes the following disclaimer which an auditor is supposed to read aloud: 'While we cannot guarantee you that matters revealed in this check will be held forever secret, we can promise you faithfully that no part of it nor any answer you make here will be given to the police or state. No Scientologist will ever bear witness against you in court by reason of answers to this security check.' However, one auditor swears that he has often seen pre-Clears' files with information circled, along with notations like, 'We can use this." Indeed, one man had confessed to skimming $25.000 a year from his business, but when he attempted to quit Scientology and get back $40,000 worth of future auditing he'd signed for after getting little sleep for four days, he was told that if he pursued his claim, they would reveal his tax-cheating to the Internal Revenue Service."

Hubbard apparently had so many troubles with various governements' legal actions that he became expatriot. He created a floating nation called Sea Org and made himself the dictator. Krassner's article reveals that as punishment for trying to get his pasport and leave, L Ron had Sirhan silenced, handcuffed in a corner and starved. When he couldn't stand it anymore, Sirhan said he didn't want his passport back and so he regained his freedom.

This comes from Krassner's account of his investigations for that book, an article called "L Ron, Sirhan, Manson and Me." That came out post-2003, and you can read it in "Abuse Your Illusions," Published by Disinformation Press.

And I don't feel like staying up with this subject anymore. Time to smoke a bowl, surf for pr0n, and hit the hay.


--------------------
.oOo. Are you high? .oOo.
.oOo. You look like you're on some kind of drug .oOo.


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OfflineSoulSurfer
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Harmonic_Order]
    #5575949 - 05/01/06 12:07 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Hey man I live near Vancouver. What I want to know is, where the fuck do you get peyote buttons!!!  :crazy2:


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:sunny: :sunny::sunny:


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Offlineilikebigbuds21
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #5575954 - 05/01/06 12:09 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Even if you did want to, how the hell can they erase the memories of psychedelic experiences?


--------------------
I don't think
I just drink

Cowgold said:
Blacks don't eat mushrooms. You can't be black. It's impossible.


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Offlinegregorio
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #5576170 - 05/01/06 01:34 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Psilocybeingzz said:

Then the little scientology guy comes up to me, his eyes are wild, and so wide, he almost looks insane, or like he is about to attack me, I am sure I see hate in his eyes, yet he is smiling, almost like Satan would smile, were he real (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)






That is something that I have noticed about people from that cult---that look that they all have in their eyes. Kind of like they been brainwashed or something. They all have that look in their eyes and that same smile.

It's creepy.


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6444628 - 01/10/07 09:32 AM (17 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

If anything, Psychology is the study of the human mind within an ever expanding and changing society, which even then is impossible to nail down accurately and completely.

So I ask you as many of you sit here and scoff at "how stupid and gullible those Scieno's are" that you are no better, nor less gullible for placing belief into a pseudo-science.





Its NOT pseudo-science. Scientology IS.

I am very critical of psychology, but let me ask you something, have you ever visited someone in the psych ward?? Ever spent large amounts of time there??

I had allot of preconceived notions, and I had allot of theories on the right way to do things from reading all sorts of philosophy and science about the mind, then I realized, this is all very complex, and the more I learn, the less I know(so to speak)  So before you attack psychology(in a Scientology thread no less) think about how HORRIBLE Scientology really is, I have been following this cult for years.

And YES , they DO cover up child abuse, and beatings of adults....they pretty much run the town of Clearwater Florida, as that was L.Rons plan... to take over a town. And they lie about, sue and threaten people that get in their way.

Scientology is nothing short of a criminal institution. And for those of you that might assume I am just reacting to a southpark episode, I am not, it was funny, and I was happy to see it, but I have been following the actions of this SICK CULT, for years.  They should be stripped of any tax exempt status they have. 

This is an old thread, but most of all, I just wanted you all to get a chance to read about my crazy experience with these people, if you are not impressed that I bumped an old thread, or whatever, go to the top of your screen and press BACK.  :tongue: :sun: :heart: :thumbup: :grin: :stoned:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #6445717 - 01/10/07 03:42 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

I talked with a OT7 about psychology and Scientology. (She was one crazy bitch.) There actually didn't seem to be many conflicts between the two. Much of Scientology is actually quite similar to psychotherapy. She was insistant that psychology was an evil, maliceful institution that was trying to destroy mankind. Even when Scientology and psychology agreed on something, psychology was still wrong, but some how Scientology wasn't. :shrug: I've concluded Scientologists hate psychology merely because of dogma and not for any rational reason.

This chick's husband also tried to convert my sister to Scientology (my sister works for him.) Fucking cults.


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InvisibleKerbouchardS
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #6445795 - 01/10/07 04:11 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

I'm so jealous you can just walk down the street and buy peyote buttons!
Are they freshly calloused? are they in condition to be replanted? You're a lucky guy :cool:


--------------------
"War Doesn't Decide Who's Right... It Decides Who's Left."


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Kerbouchard]
    #6445849 - 01/10/07 04:31 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

They are in pots, and range in price, from 15-30$ from what I have seen.

I wont be getting them from there anymore, I might have a cheaper source, and I DONT live in Van. But its a great place. :smile:

The best thing about growing peyote in Canada is that its 100% legal, so I am taking full advantage of that :smile: And once you have a few buttons, some pedro grafting stock, peyote seedlings and perekiopsis, you wont need to BUY any peyote.

Just..... grow, graft, switch stock, pot. Repeat!!!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Words to start your day with, everyday. :laugh:


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Offlinerazmablues
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #6446295 - 01/10/07 06:32 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

scientologists have always pissed me the fck off.

ignorant bigots in my opinion, always trying to prove everyone else wrong, because of course theres an alien Zenu controlling the creation of planet earth...

in my sociology class, we disected scientologists and found that the group is positive towards most if not every trait of a cult, the list was provided by the text book.

i'm not done with those guys yet  :cool:


--------------------
soft silly music is meaningful, magical :heartpump:


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #6446378 - 01/10/07 06:48 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Psilocybeingzz said:
Quote:

If anything, Psychology is the study of the human mind within an ever expanding and changing society, which even then is impossible to nail down accurately and completely.

So I ask you as many of you sit here and scoff at "how stupid and gullible those Scieno's are" that you are no better, nor less gullible for placing belief into a pseudo-science.





Its NOT pseudo-science. Scientology IS.

I am very critical of psychology, but let me ask you something, have you ever visited someone in the psych ward?? Ever spent large amounts of time there??




ever gone and spent any amount of time in a Scientology building? I dont really get what that question is supposed to prove.

Quote:

So before you attack psychology(in a Scientology thread no less) think about how HORRIBLE Scientology really is, I have been following this cult for years.




what a compelling argument. Im sure all of your "research" consists of reading second hand reports from Clambake and Xenu.net.

Quote:

And YES , they DO cover up child abuse, and beatings of adults....they pretty much run the town of Clearwater Florida, as that was L.Rons plan... to take over a town. And they lie about, sue and threaten people that get in their way.




I will agree that they are sue happy.... but everything else in the above quote is unfounded bullshit.
How do I know? I lived in Clearwater for a few years, and even played piano at a few of the Scientology funded buildings that were for public and charity use.
In all the years I lived there, nobody I talked to had a problem with Scientologists. It was no different than your average church down the road.

Quote:

Scientology is nothing short of a criminal institution. And for those of you that might assume I am just reacting to a southpark episode, I am not, it was funny, and I was happy to see it, but I have been following the actions of this SICK CULT, for years. They should be stripped of any tax exempt status they have.




Hmmm.... child abuse.... that does sound like a certain church.....<cough...catholic...<cough>... not Scientology though. Most Scientology churched have the equivalent of the mcDonalds Playground for children, as well as day care.

I have nothing against people disliking Scientology, but spewing lies based on the hatred and fiction of other people is kind of petty and seems like a waste of time.

And before you babble on about how I am part of their grand, diabolical scheme to brainwash everyone.... I am not a Scientologist.
But I am well read on the subject, as well as have way more personal experience with the beliefs and inner workings of Scientology than anyone else.

here is a little story about the EVIL SADISTIC ORGANIZATION..... their vatican is called Flag, and it is a renovated hotel in clearwater, FL. In the lobby there is a coffee shop / whole foods store where the majority of people get snacks, watch some movies and socialize. It seats probably 30-40 people.
Eveything is priced the same as any convenience store..... but there is no cashier. About every hour someone comes by and puts all the money in a cash register.

It isn't really a big deal, but it is kind of nice to know that the 300 plus people that go through there every day are honest. It is a very communal and relaxed society.... and while I agree there are problems with the religion, as there are any religion, the people and its parishoners are the most honest and solid people I have ever met.


Edited by psilocyberin (01/10/07 06:50 PM)


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OfflineIrdamage
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6446518 - 01/10/07 07:22 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

Good posts everyone. Specially Psilo. Its very easy to forget that not every scientologist is L Ron Hubbard or Tom Cruise. On a related topic, does anyone else find Issac Hayes resigning from South Park due to the scientology episode a little hipocritical? simply for the fact that it finally got around to turning his religion into a satire.(Behind a long list of others)


Edited by Irdamage (01/10/07 07:22 PM)


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Irdamage]
    #6446565 - 01/10/07 07:32 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

I really thought that was douchebaggery as well.

Scientology has its own vocabulary/language in a sense, and like many other religions, things it deems in one way or another to be detrimental to spiritual progression can get you "cast out".
Im willing to bet they deemed South Park (atleast its crew) as SP's.... suppressive person.
So, the church made Isaac decide between Scientology and South Park. Sadly, Scientology can't take jokes.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6446774 - 01/10/07 08:38 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
I've concluded Scientologists hate psychology merely because of dogma and not for any rational reason.



I think it has to do with the fact that every person who goes to a psychologist represents lost revenue for their cult.


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InvisibleDNKYD
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #6446798 - 01/10/07 08:51 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

Scientology is nothing but a sci-fi author's wet dream run amok. Anybody who claims to be a scientologist might as well tattoo "gullible" on their forehead.


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InvisibleGnuBobo
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6446822 - 01/10/07 08:59 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
This was one of my biggest problems with Scientology as well: the drugs issue.

But in Scientology's defense, "Therapy" is no more objective and scientific (the entire field of psychology/psychiatry for that matter) than an E-meter.

Mental Health "Science" often makes the mistake of using highly subjective things like emotions and generalized reactions as a constant. It is obvious to anyone that the term "attention span" is completely subjective, but a large portion of the world accepts it as a sound fact produced by rigorous scientific study.

If anything, Psychology is the study of the human mind within an ever expanding and changing society, which even then is impossible to nail down accurately and completely.

So I ask you as many of you sit here and scoff at "how stupid and gullible those Scieno's are" that you are no better, nor less gullible for placing belief into a pseudo-science.




It's called real, measureable differences of natural chemicals in the brain. You can fairly accurately account for a normative level of given chemicals in your head--so you can tell if something's off. In a strictly biological assessment.

Scientologists, on the other hand, believe in some seriously fucked-up construct of aliens and souls and their "prophet" was a sci-fi writer. And they make you pay for your "salvation"--essentially the same scam as indulgences were for the Catholic church.

It's utter bullshit.


--------------------
Jerry Garcia. JERRY GARCIA! JERRY GARCIA!!!!


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: GnuBobo]
    #6447552 - 01/11/07 01:52 AM (17 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

GnuBobo said:
Quote:

psilocyberin said:
This was one of my biggest problems with Scientology as well: the drugs issue.

But in Scientology's defense, "Therapy" is no more objective and scientific (the entire field of psychology/psychiatry for that matter) than an E-meter.

Mental Health "Science" often makes the mistake of using highly subjective things like emotions and generalized reactions as a constant. It is obvious to anyone that the term "attention span" is completely subjective, but a large portion of the world accepts it as a sound fact produced by rigorous scientific study.

If anything, Psychology is the study of the human mind within an ever expanding and changing society, which even then is impossible to nail down accurately and completely.

So I ask you as many of you sit here and scoff at "how stupid and gullible those Scieno's are" that you are no better, nor less gullible for placing belief into a pseudo-science.




Quote:

It's called real, measureable differences of natural chemicals in the brain. You can fairly accurately account for a normative level of given chemicals in your head--so you can tell if something's off. In a strictly biological assessment.




Yes, that is neurophysiology... also, there is surgical neurophysiology which doesn't require a license or certification to perform.
So, how does psychiatry and psychology accurately measure your brain chemicals by talking to you as you lay on a couch?

Quote:

Scientologists, on the other hand, believe in some seriously fucked-up construct of aliens and souls and their "prophet" was a sci-fi writer. And they make you pay for your "salvation"--essentially the same scam as indulgences were for the Catholic church.




1) what does their belief of aliens have to do with psychology?
2) Scientology has no "prophet". they dont pray to L. Ron Hubbard.... they merely acknowledge him as the founder of Scientology.
3) Almost every organized religion involves money, tithes, dues etc.... even the church of Bob.

Look, you are at a huge disadvantage here.... I know about Scientology, and psychotherapy.... you however dont know dick about shit in either of those realms.

Psych "science" has yet to even come close to proving cause and effect regarding chemicals in the brain, yet continues to go ahead and act upon it as if it were fact.
BTW, the etymology of the word Scientology is "The Study of Knowledge".... or sometimes considered "Learning how to Learn".

Also, if you were to search through the mountain of books, articles and papers written by L. Ron Hubbard, you would probably only find 5 or 6 references to Xenu or aliens. Aliens and Xenu have nothing to do, at all, with the core beliefs and doctrines of Scientology.

So, why dont you come back when you actually know something about Scientology, and then debate it with me.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6447695 - 01/11/07 04:45 AM (17 years, 22 days ago)

dude, you really need to learn how to use the quote tags


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: niteowl]
    #6447713 - 01/11/07 05:07 AM (17 years, 22 days ago)

well, recently my computer started bringing up some toolbar when I hit the forward slash key, so I have been clicking the quote tag and having to delete, and somewhere in all that I lose track of open and closed quotes.


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OfflineIrdamage
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6448311 - 01/11/07 10:32 AM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
Look, you are at a huge disadvantage here.... I know about Scientology, and psychotherapy.... you however dont know dick about shit in either of those realms.




K actually I take my statement back...that did kinda sound like Tom Cruise in all fairness.

Tom Cruise "You Don't know about the history of psychiatry, I do!"


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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6448882 - 01/11/07 01:52 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Look, you are at a huge disadvantage here.... I know about Scientology, and psychotherapy.... you however dont know dick about shit in either of those realms.

Psych "science" has yet to even come close to proving cause and effect regarding chemicals in the brain, yet continues to go ahead and act upon it as if it were fact.




First of all, you clearly do not know as much as you claim. For example, if I hang out with a few Christian or whatnot, I do not know all there is to know about that group.

Also, Scientology IS A CULT. And they DO cover up abuses by their members, Xenu.net(or whatever it is) is a great site, but dont act like 2 small groups are attacking Scientology, there is plenty of reason to criticize this CULT, weather you understand the issues or not. 

As for psychology, we don't have perfect models no, and I for one am always the first person to attack SSRI's and the way they have been pushed on the public. But that doesn't mean all of Psychology is bad, or untrue. Ever known someone with mental illness?? I shudder to think what would have happened if one of my friend (currently in the psych ward) would have got mixed up with a bunch of lunatics like the people involved in Scientology.

Just because you meet a few of them and they seemed nice, that does not mean your life experience= worldwide, or even country wide fact.

How would Scientology deal with my friend in the psych ward??(keep in mind I a critical of his treatment there too, and I have been pushing hard for them to lower his meds, and use more natural stuff like 5HTP, and I hope he will be off ALL MEDS ASAP)

They would "prescribe" all sorts of expensive bullshit pseudo-science. And use all sorts a "machines" that often have less going on inside of them then a children's toy! Its a fucking scam, and a criminal organization. I will be popping champagne the day I hear they have lost their tax exempt status.
join me, wont you?  :smirk:


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #6449257 - 01/11/07 03:16 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

actually, I do know a lot about Scientology... atleast in comparison to the people on this website. How about checking out the thread "Tom Cruise is Da Man" (I didnt start the thread btw).... which has about 200 very long posts.... thats if you want to see just how much I know about it.

Quote:

Also, Scientology IS A CULT.




Ok.... how about going and finding the definition of the word "Cult" instead of trying to invoke a completely hollow, negative buzz word.

Quote:

And they DO cover up abuses by their members




1) how are they repeatedly getting away with this, especially while under such immense scrutiny by cult sleuths such as yourself?
2) Through years of personal exposure and experience to Scientology I can sit here and tell you that the above quote is complete bullshit and is purely the product of someones malicious imagination.


Quote:

They would "prescribe" all sorts of expensive bullshit pseudo-science. And use all sorts a "machines" that often have less going on inside of them then a children's toy! Its a fucking scam, and a criminal organization. I will be popping champagne the day I hear they have lost their tax exempt status.
join me, wont you?




See, this is exactly the kind of ignorance begat ignorance that bothers me. You havent even received second hand knowledge, it is second hand fiction.
There is no "prescription"....

You are just spewing malinformed hatred of a group based on hand me down opinions of others.
If you really want to know about the beliefs and practices of Scientology, I can try to field the questions to the best of my ability..... but if you wish to continue talking out of your ass about Scientology, I will continue to reveal your ignorance of the subject.

Its cool if you dislike Scientology, even if it is based on other peoples opinions (kind of like being a republican because your dad is.... sad), but dont spout things like abuse without backing it up by credible sources.


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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6449663 - 01/11/07 05:06 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

I will respond to your verbal hubris in a moment....

For now a few links before I get into grow mode :mushroomgrow:

Scientologists teaching impressionable young children Scientology-doctrine in public schools

What is truly alarming is that Scientology, using its "Narconon Drug Prevention & Education program" label, is able to teach young children some of its doctrine about drugs and detoxification, a method which is called "pseudoscience" by Dr. Peter Banys, director of substance abuse programs at the VA Medical Center in San Francisco.

After public outcry has the San Francisco Unified School District (SFUSD) told Narconon to "stop teaching what the district calls inaccurate and misleading information" before June the 24th 2004, or get "removed from the list of Community Based Organizations". Narconon can not really change what they teach, it is officially carved in stone by L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of the Scientology corporation. Hubbard, internally referred to as "Source", ruled that only he could change the doctrine of Scientology, and he's been dead since 1986.. But Scientology - it has to be admitted - has found new ways to change some Hubbard. One of the tricks they employ is using his trademarked name as part of the title of rewritten books. No one sees the difference and only the copyright registrations at the copyright office reveal the fraud.

How this will end is very interesting. Of course the proper way would have been to kick Scientology's Narconon out of schools because of the state/church separation issue and the program is called by experts "irresponsible" and "pseudoscience," charging that students are being introduced to Scientology beliefs and methods without their knowledge.

On 17 June 2004 the latest news was that Superintendent Jack O'Connell of the California Department of Education, has ordered an investigation of Narconon's program in schools: "We have an obligation to inform school districts of potentially inaccurate and misleading information being distributed," O'Connell said. "We'll start following this. We can send a memo to all school districts with the flip of a switch."

Items on this important issue

    * San Franciso Chronical - 9 June 2004
      - Scientology link to public schools As early as the third grade, students in S.F. and elsewhere are subtly introduced to church's concepts via anti-drug teachings
    * Scientology emails unmask Narconon - 9 June 2004
      - http://Stop-Narconon.org/Documents/scientology-emails.html
    * San Franciso Chronical - 10 June 2004
      - Narconon put on notice by schools -- Scientology-linked program ordered to fix inaccuracies
    * San Franciso Chronical - 17 June 2004
      - Probe of antidrug program ordered State schools chief says he could bar Narconon teachings
    * San Franciso Chronical - 20 June 2004
      - EDITORIAL Common sense prevails
    * San Franciso Chronical - 23 June 2004
      - L.A. schools look hard at Narconon
    * UPI - 23 June 2004
      - LA probes Scientology drug program
    * San Franciso Chronical - 2 July 2004
      CALIFORNIA State to evaluate Narconon Research group tapped to look at anti-drug teachings
    * San Franciso Chronical - 25 August 2004
      Narconon banned from S.F. schools
    * NPR - 12 September 2004
      Schools Nix Drug Speeches from Scientology Group
    * San Franciso Chronical - 2 October 2004
      Church's drug program flunks San Francisco test
    * San Franciso Chronical - 23 February 2005
      Schools urged to drop antidrug program Scientology-linked teachings inaccurate, superintendent says
    * San Franciso Chronical - 27 March 2005
      [Californian] Doctors back schools dropping flawed antidrug program


Their stance on drugs alone should be reason to pause, L.Ron was wacked out on speed,for YEARS!, he wrote allot his stuff fucked up, had crazy deluions while at sea fucked up on speed and rug use is bad?

SEE. Secret Lives, L.Ron Hubbard.


Child Abuse??
Scientology: L. Ron Hubbard's Great-Grandson(FUNN and he knows the facts)
Scientology front group WISE: first hand accounts of harassment and recruiting in the workplace

Scientology exhibit won’t help the mentally ill
Scientology may be monitored in Berlin 
Revealed: how Scientologists infiltrated Britain's schools

Excerpt of Channel 4 (UK, 1997): "Secret Lives - L. Ron Hubbard"Clip 1

Excerpt of Channel 4 (UK, 1997): "Secret Lives - L. Ron Hubbard"Clip 2
UK Chan.4 Doc Secret Lives of L. Rob Hubbard Clip 3

More later, I'm a little busy :wink:

Psilocybeing
:mushroomgrow: :mushroomgrow: :mushroomgrow: :mushroomgrow: :mushroomgrow:


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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #6449702 - 01/11/07 05:15 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

PWNT?


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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #6449723 - 01/11/07 05:20 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

haha you cant take those guys too seriously :smile:

arguing with the fanatic ones much like arguing with anyone who is fanatic often leads in non-sensical circles.

i havent read the whole thread but i am curious if there are any scientologist shroomerites.


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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #6450030 - 01/11/07 06:48 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

:grin:
Back to work.......



Psilocybeing

:mushroomgrow: :mushroomgrow: :mushroomgrow: :mushroomgrow:  :mushroomgrow:


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #6450584 - 01/11/07 09:47 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Oh wow.....

First, let me say that you have now created the most ridiculous strawman argument I have ever seen. It is so bad, it isnt even really in the context of what we were previously talking about.

now....

Here is a paragraph that really pwned me....

Quote:

teach young children some of its doctrine...... a method which is called "pseudoscience" by Dr. Peter Banys



How can something be dogmatic, yet pseudo-science? in the same sentence no less?
SPOOKY LANGUAGE! he labelled it with a word that has a negative connotation... its gotta be bad.... :lol:

Quote:

Narconon can not really change what they teach, it is officially carved in stone by L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of the Scientology corporation. Hubbard, internally referred to as "Source", ruled that only he could change the doctrine of Scientology




this is just a flat out lie. They can and have changed certain things. I would go into detail, but that would require you to have a modicum of real knowledge regarding Scientology. There are certain things which L. Ron Hubbard "carved into stone" but it isnt even close to being "My word is Law".

I will be the first to agree that any religiously funded organizations should stay out of school affairs, and schools for that matter..... but what does this have to do with anything we were talking about previously?
How does a public outcry, from San Fran no less, show the scam and villanous intentions of Scientology?
If we want to let strawmen arguments fly, then remember that San Francisco allows for sex change operations to be covered under city workers healthcare plan. A move which had a loud, public outcry from a multitude of organizations and intra-state cities.
see how that works?

Quote:

On 17 June 2004 the latest news was that Superintendent Jack O'Connell of the California Department of Education, has ordered an investigation of Narconon's program in schools: "We have an obligation to inform school districts of potentially inaccurate and misleading information being distributed," O'Connell said. "We'll start following this. We can send a memo to all school districts with the flip of a switch."




Yeah, that put the nail in my coffin.... a superintendant is gonna put memos out... move over dan rather, psilocybeings is on your tail with some hard core proof that Scientology is a scam! He also has a list of organizations which have written letters to the newspaper, or have probed a satellite organization by the church of Scientology... :lol:

Now, here comes the really big proof.... the links!

Now, even if everyone just skimmed over Psilocybeingz post without clicking the links, please, please, please click on the first one titled "Child Abuse?".
Because once you stop laughing, you will realize that Psilocybeingz DIDN'T EVEN WATCH THE VIDEO!
It has nothing to do with Child Abuse, it actually is some sort of video claiming that a person who in in the British Media is a Scientologist, and the person had the words "Lie" at one point on the screen, followed by "Hubbard was a pedophile".... even though it had nothing to do with the clip being played.

See, this is why I feel the need to raise awareness about the widespread ignorance regarding Scientology. Psilocybeingz doesn't want to hear anything other than bad things about the church, even if it is obviously unfounded and fictional.

The next video is a guy who really digs himself... it is like a spoken word poem about L. Ron Hubbard.
This is another good video for you anyone to watch. I think it supports a good point: Scientology could very well be purely fiction. Lets say that all the help all of the Scientologists have experienced was merely placebo fluff... what is the difference between a group of people blindly believing and eating up every word of a science fiction writer, and a group of people blindly believing and eating up every word of someone with unfounded claims?
It is one thing to actually study Scientology, like an atheist would study the bible, and then blow it off as complete bullshit. But it is fairly juvenile to refuse to learn anything about the beliefs and doctrines of the religion, while exerting energy to find sources of ad hominems to further bolster your ignorant hatred of Scientology.


The third link is what psilocybeingz quoted before the links.

The fourth is an article which uses the words "Allegedly", "probably" in front of its biggest claims. But it is obvious that this person has no first hand knowledge of Scientology, and is a very big Psychiatry advocate. Which is the equivalent of the Anti-drug.com people writing a report on marijuana. Nothing but slanted journalism.

The 5th link is about a christian Democratic party, from Germany no less, whose economy is almost entirely based on Pharmaceuticals,  "keeping their eye" on Scientology.... seriously Psilocybeingz, did you do anything besides google search "Scientology sucks" and post the links?

The 6th link is about the same thing as the quoted link, but in britain... but does nothing more than claim that Scientology is probably trying to use drug awareness to proselytize.

See, most of this comes from an outrage over Narcanon telling kids that Ritalin and the like are amphetamine salts, which is one methyl group away from methamphetamines, and then going on to tell them similar amphetamines.

The 7th is a 1:30 minute video clip talking about L. Ron's son, from Xenu.net no less. Xenu.net is the number one anti-scientology propaganda manufacturer (read: made up bullshit).

the 8th and 9th links are continuations of that "story".


So, Psilocybeingz, I realize you are really busy and all, but dont get into a debate that you dont have time for. Try doing some real research on the subject, before letting other peoples words speak for you, because.... they just let you down.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6450628 - 01/11/07 10:09 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

:popcorn:


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Don't be bogged down by your past
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6451037 - 01/12/07 02:10 AM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
Quote:

GnuBobo said:
Quote:

psilocyberin said:
This was one of my biggest problems with Scientology as well: the drugs issue.

But in Scientology's defense, "Therapy" is no more objective and scientific (the entire field of psychology/psychiatry for that matter) than an E-meter.

Mental Health "Science" often makes the mistake of using highly subjective things like emotions and generalized reactions as a constant. It is obvious to anyone that the term "attention span" is completely subjective, but a large portion of the world accepts it as a sound fact produced by rigorous scientific study.

If anything, Psychology is the study of the human mind within an ever expanding and changing society, which even then is impossible to nail down accurately and completely.

So I ask you as many of you sit here and scoff at "how stupid and gullible those Scieno's are" that you are no better, nor less gullible for placing belief into a pseudo-science.




Quote:

It's called real, measureable differences of natural chemicals in the brain. You can fairly accurately account for a normative level of given chemicals in your head--so you can tell if something's off. In a strictly biological assessment.




Yes, that is neurophysiology... also, there is surgical neurophysiology which doesn't require a license or certification to perform.
So, how does psychiatry and psychology accurately measure your brain chemicals by talking to you as you lay on a couch?

Quote:

Scientologists, on the other hand, believe in some seriously fucked-up construct of aliens and souls and their "prophet" was a sci-fi writer. And they make you pay for your "salvation"--essentially the same scam as indulgences were for the Catholic church.




1) what does their belief of aliens have to do with psychology?
2) Scientology has no "prophet". they dont pray to L. Ron Hubbard.... they merely acknowledge him as the founder of Scientology.
3) Almost every organized religion involves money, tithes, dues etc.... even the church of Bob.

Look, you are at a huge disadvantage here.... I know about Scientology, and psychotherapy.... you however dont know dick about shit in either of those realms.

Psych "science" has yet to even come close to proving cause and effect regarding chemicals in the brain, yet continues to go ahead and act upon it as if it were fact.
BTW, the etymology of the word Scientology is "The Study of Knowledge".... or sometimes considered "Learning how to Learn".

Also, if you were to search through the mountain of books, articles and papers written by L. Ron Hubbard, you would probably only find 5 or 6 references to Xenu or aliens. Aliens and Xenu have nothing to do, at all, with the core beliefs and doctrines of Scientology.

So, why dont you come back when you actually know something about Scientology, and then debate it with me.




Oh, Christ. I have too many demerits to get into this in this forum.


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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: GnuBobo]
    #6451350 - 01/12/07 06:57 AM (17 years, 21 days ago)

if scientology wants to bring it on, ill bring it back.

with a headbutt.



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Edited by blacksun (01/12/07 07:00 AM)


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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6452029 - 01/12/07 12:16 PM (17 years, 20 days ago)

I just don't care that you believe their shit. The DOC was made by chah.4!!!!!!! from Britain, its highly respected and has NOTHING!!! to do with Xenu.net.
Did you read any of the news articles, or LISTEN to ex-Scientology members??
Or L.Rons great grandson?? Wake the fuck up :wink:
And I guess Lisa's trust is just in it for?....well.. what exactly?? Not $$ They don't have allot, certainly not as much as Scientology.

Quote:

The 5th link is about a christian Democratic party, from Germany no less, whose economy is almost entirely based on Pharmaceuticals, "keeping their eye" on Scientology.... seriously Psilocybeingz, did you do anything besides google search "Scientology sucks" and post the links?




What the fuck? Thats your argument? Your SO WEAK. :lol:
Whatever man, believe it all you want, hey not every sheep makes it out of the meadow, enjoy your stay.

MAYBE, I will have time for this shit later. But I believe Psychology can be improved, unlike Scientology which isn't Science, its Pseudo-science bullshit.

Sorry if I have a life outside of attacking what is obviously a criminal institution.

Quote:

Because once you stop laughing, you will realize that Psilocybeingz DIDN'T EVEN WATCH THE VIDEO!
It has nothing to do with Child Abuse, it actually is some sort of video claiming that a person who in in the British Media is a Scientologist, and the person had the words "Lie" at one point on the screen, followed by "Hubbard was a pedophile".... even though it had nothing to do with the clip being played.




I found it funny, and if you KNOW the history the WORDS that pop up make sense, sorry I liked it! and I DID watch it. Your a BELIEVER good for you. Have fun with that, and give my regards to XENU :wink:

Quote:

But it is obvious that this person has no first hand knowledge of Scientology, and is a very big Psychiatry advocate. Which is the equivalent of the Anti-drug.com people writing a report on marijuana. Nothing but slanted journalism.




Right, and when Scientologists tell children not to use drugs, and join Scientology thats OK right?? Narconon is a good program correct?? Slanted?? and its OBVIOUS he has no knowledge?? and he is a Psychiatry advocate?? Sure, man.
They are coming to get you, the whole world is against you, and Scientology.

I have plenty of problems with Psychology, and even more with the Phrarm-corps. But you are just fucking crazy, no offence, but open your fucking eyes and see Scientology for what it really is, an exploitve INDUSTRY, that takes peoples money.... makes them PAY to ascended through the levels. And has NO SCIECNE to it, at all. Other then the fact it was made up by a man that wrote SCI-Fiction, treated people like crap, had numerous psychological problems himself, and told people not to do drugs while he was whacked out on speed.

But EX-Scienctologists work for the  psychologists right? L.Rons first test, his first "clear" did well right?? And Scientology has proven benefits right??
Why are so many people in his family against him??
Did you know he pretty much said, the real way to make some money, is to start a religion, and then did just that? I think I figured out why you are so blind.
Your a Scientologist!! :lol: ............. maybe :smile:

EVIDENCE for SCIENTOLOGY'S claims PLEASE :laugh:???????
WELL DO YOU HAVE ANY????? From an independent source??? ANY PROOF??



EVERYONE PLEASE SEE
SECRET LIVES: L.Ron Hubbard. MADE BY CHAN.4 (yes its a doc, not a hit piece)
CHAN.4 does lots of good docs. I saw one about the US prison industry a week ago, get your facts straight before you attack sources.
Its really sad. Your arguments are so weak, that I have trouble figuring out what to respond to, cause you didn't really prove anything by tossing your opinions all over articles, docs, ex-scentology members, and Hubbards decedents. Your a fool. IMO.

I have a life to live, regardless of XENU :wink:
Gotta go, I might pop in again after you post some more opinion, but PLEASE, some PROOF of ANY CLAIM SCIENTOLOGY MAKES PLEASE, SHOW ME SOMETHING THAT PROVES ANYTHING THEY SAY, SHOW ME PEOPLE "CURED" OF THEIR PROBLEMS. PLEASE :laugh:

:mushroomgrow:
Psilocybeing


Edited by Psilocybeingzz (01/12/07 12:24 PM)


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #6452550 - 01/12/07 03:07 PM (17 years, 20 days ago)

jesus...... how can I show proof against something which has absolutely no truth to it?
Nothing you have stated (as your opinion no less) has had any shred of truth to it, it is merely your unfounded opinion, or the regurgitation of other peoples opinions.

Many people in L. Rons family were quite pissed off to find out that all of their inheretance had gone to Scientology and not them.... so understandably they could be pissed.

Also.... Scientology doesn't claim to be a science...

see this is what I am talking about, you make claims, which you think are solid fact, and then expect me to disprove them? how can i do that when you only offer opinions or other peoples opinions, which I personally know to be delusions born from ignorance of the subject?

Do you realize that you have yet to actually bring up anything about the churchs beliefs or framework? Do you realize that your entire argument has been to attack L. Ron Hubbard. It is like saying Pope Benedict was a member of the nazi party, so all of catholocism is pure bullshit.
Catholocism could very well be pure bullshit, but attack a pope doesn't prove your point.

Maybe if you offered something more than ad hominems and strawmen arguments, I could offer proof, but until then I am stuck showing hopw ignorant you are regarding this matter.


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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6452673 - 01/12/07 03:36 PM (17 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Nothing you have stated (as your opinion no less) has had any shred of truth to it, it is merely your unfounded opinion, or the regurgitation of other peoples opinions.



Unture.

Quote:

jesus...... how can I show proof against something which has absolutely no truth to it?



I asked for proof of all the claims Scientology makes, thats all, a few success stories, why don't you have any??

Quote:

Many people in L. Rons family were quite pissed off to find out that all of their inheretance had gone to Scientology and not them.... so understandably they could be pissed.



Right, I'm sure thats all there is to that story. They knew he was crazy, and many of them have said it.

Quote:

Also.... Scientology doesn't claim to be a science...



Yes it does. It claims to help people, using their techniques. And tell me, why the name Scientology?
Quote:

see this is what I am talking about, you make claims, which you think are solid fact, and then expect me to disprove them? how can i do that when you only offer opinions or other peoples opinions, which I personally know to be delusions born from ignorance of the subject?




Show me some evidence that its helped people, and didn't exploit them, show me show proof?? I mean there must be countless stories of people whom then have helped..... RIGHT?
Quote:

Do you realize that you have yet to actually bring up anything about the churchs beliefs or framework? Do you realize that your entire argument has been to attack L. Ron Hubbard. It is like saying Pope Benedict was a member of the nazi party, so all of catholocism is pure bullshit.



We are not talking about any other religions, we are talking about Scientology.
And thats why I didn't bring them up. As for Catholicism, they should give away some of the 60 or so billion they have if they really care about the world.
Thats ridiculous, being in a religion like that, and not asking,  hey why so little charity? I mean,.. we have over 60 billion dollars.
Back on topic.

I DIDN'T just attack L.Ron, I attacked the "religion" , because its a scam, and they hurt people that get in their way. I didn't just repeat opinions. I have seen these "churches" I have met people both in Scientology, and those that have left. My thread started with one really messed up encounter with one of them.

Quote:

Maybe if you offered something more than ad hominems and strawmen arguments, I could offer proof, but until then I am stuck showing hopw ignorant you are regarding this matter.




So no proof then?  :tongue:
Not even ONE STORY of someone Scientology has helped from an independent source?
Ad hominies and straw men huh? Thats your argument? Do you know the meaning of the words you are using?I gave you a few links, and plenty of evidence, not to mention an opinion or 2 from what I have SEEN, not just heard. And thats what you say in return.

Well, I don't want to get ahead of myself here. But SET POINT MATCH.
YOU LOSE. :wink:
Unless you have something to offer? Some proof? Anything???

And BTW, a CHILD can often see through Scientology's techniques, and fraudulent therapy. So try and grow up a little huh?  Your last post was the weakest of all. I am no expert on debate, but I would say your losing bro :wink:


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #6453122 - 01/12/07 05:32 PM (17 years, 20 days ago)

:lol:

ok Napoleon, I didn't know that was the kind of "proof" you wanted.

First off, regarding the name Scientology, as I have stated in this thread, and many other, translates in to the "Study of Knowledge" or sometimes considered "learning how to Learn".....

If you want success stories, then search for them online. Here.... really quick..

http://www.seekers-of-truth.com/success_stories.htm

in fact, there a probably a million success stories online..... but I dont really consider that "proof" just as I dont consider someones account of being scammed as "proof" against... it is biased both ways.

And if you want a personal account.... I personally know a bunch of people whos lives are better because of Scientology.

Quote:

Yes it does. It claims to help people, using their techniques. And tell me, why the name Scientology?




yes, it claims to help people, like any other church or charity.

As for "evidence".... there is no real evidence to be had for or against... I know you think you have shown evidence, but it is no different than the above link being evidence.

So... here is some more personal revelation from me regarding Scientology.... My mother is an OT7, but hasnt practiced Scientology for about 8-10 years.
She harbors no ill-feelings against the church, and stopped because she was at a point in her life where she wanted to be, she was/is happy and basically felt there was no further need to continue.

BTW, while she was a single mother, making a little under 40k a year, she achieved one of the highest levels of Scientology, while putting me through college..... so... there goes that big scam theory.
She isnt in debt either.

Also, no child is ever forced to be a Scientologist, which is why I am not one. Granted I have studied it, and taken some courses to see what it was all about, but that was all on my own volition.

So, now it is my turn to ask you some questions.... id you dont mind explaining to me the core beliefs of Scientology, and maybe even explaining some of their practices and "techniques" since you have been so immersed in the Scientology society..... you must know a lot about it, right?
Lets just see how much you know, because I can personally verify it all and later even show you sources which state so.

You see... anything can be considered helpful or hurtful, benevolent, or malevolent. If I wanted to expend enough energy and time showing you the great conspiracy of the Girl Scouts of America, I could throw down a fairly convincing case against it.
One of the first things you do in Scientology is called the Purification Rundown, where you spend 1-3 weeks taking fish oil, lecithin, salt, potassium, and lots of other vitamins, then jog a mile and spend a few hours in the sauna after taking enough niacin to dialate your capillaries.
But how easy would it be to slant it and say " they forced me to consume countless amounts of pills and forced me to run til exhaustion, then kept me in a sauna until I couldnt take it anymore, and then charged me 500$ for this torture"......
see, it is all how you wish to recount the experience. It isn't scientific, it is health sense, and it isnt really any more expensive than if you were to do it yourself.

Really.... can you believe the audacity of those evil Scientologists? getting people healthy and all? the nerve!

So play on if you want to.... I will sit by while you scramble to educate yourself in a cliff note fashion so you can respond to my aforementioned question regarding their beliefs, practices and "techniques".


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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6453980 - 01/12/07 10:26 PM (17 years, 20 days ago)

just wanted to bump it because :

(you pick)

1: didnt want the thread getting buried with your hectic schedule and all.....
2: Didnt want your victory to go unnoticed.


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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6454105 - 01/12/07 11:24 PM (17 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

So play on if you want to.... I will sit by while you scramble to educate yourself in a cliff note fashion so you can respond to my aforementioned question regarding their beliefs, practices and "techniques".





I haven't read your whole post yet, but you often attack me personally, and my methods, maybe because you realize you have lost. I will admit it, I went right to the bottom of your post, I wouldn't doubt everything above it is just as "educational."  :rolleyes:

If I were to take a vote, you would lose, I don't feel like rubbing it in, and I really don't want to discuss some stupid cult and the people that blindly accept them, maybe tomorrow. When I feel like it. I have to "ruin" my mind with some Cannabis and have dinner.  Then maybe a movie, or I might install a video game, both of which will be more interesting then talking to you.  :smirk:


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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #6454143 - 01/12/07 11:40 PM (17 years, 20 days ago)

:shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:
:shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:
:shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:
:shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:
:shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:
:shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:
:shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:
:shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:
:shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:
:shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:
:shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:
:shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:  :shitstorm:


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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6454157 - 01/12/07 11:47 PM (17 years, 20 days ago)

Wow. You sure are a good debater.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #6454217 - 01/13/07 12:06 AM (17 years, 20 days ago)

Scientologists can choke on their own vomit.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #6454676 - 01/13/07 05:07 AM (17 years, 20 days ago)

how exactly can you critique my debating skills when you refuse to not only understand what I am saying, but go as far as to not read what my rebuttal is?

You asked me for personal accounts and success stories regarding members of Scientology..... twice no less..... in fact, you hung your entire argument on that.....
and I have provided it for you.

Then I pose a simple question for you to relate to me any shred of knowledge you have regarding Scientology and its beliefs, practices or "techniques" and you can't even face it.... you have to run away and hide behind personal attacks.

You accuse me of mounting personal attacks yet the only thing I have done outside of debating your "proof", is attack your credibility and knowledge of Scientology... which you have only dodged and mounted further personal attacks.

How about sticking to the issue at hand and stop pussing out. You want to claim that you have won this argument, yet refuse to even acknowledge my side of the debate.
If you cant even reply to my answers, and cannot step up to my one offensive challenge I have presented you with, then just admit that while you have no counter for my rebuttal, (then picture yourself sticking fingers in your ears and yelling "i cant hear you! I cant hear you! nah nah nah nah, la la la la la la...... ")


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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6454677 - 01/13/07 05:09 AM (17 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
Scientologists can choke on their own vomit.




Yes, it is possible for them to choke on their own vomit..... much like Jimi Hendrix. :headbanger:


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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6457517 - 01/14/07 03:44 AM (17 years, 19 days ago)

had to bump it again.......

I just cant wait to hear all about the mountain of knowledge you have about the beliefs, practices and "techniques" of Scientology....!!!


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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6457633 - 01/14/07 05:38 AM (17 years, 19 days ago)

You seem very defensive about Scientology. Are you Tom Cruise? Or have you simply been brainwashed through a Scientology schooling program?


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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6459235 - 01/14/07 04:15 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

Would you mind explaining what, in the Scientologists view, constitutes the 'soul', or the essence of self? Scientology makes it very clear that they are a religion and that they provide methods to empower the individual who chooses Scientology. They also make it clear that they are not fatalists, they don't believe the human animal is the true individual, but that you and I are somehow everlasting. Shit, don't take my word for it, read the following which I took straight out of the final sequence of the Scientology Orientation Video:

"In this brief moment, we have our temporary chance for handling and continuing life. Clouds loom over this culture and planet. In this short interval, in this one place, we have our freedom before us. We can arise above the decay; the final flash that will inevitably extinguish this planet. It is not our mission to save it. It is our mission to free you. You are an immortal being. Your life will not halt because this planet halts. You can go on."


So...where do we "go on"? In what form? What constitutes my "immortal being"?


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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Viveka]
    #6459245 - 01/14/07 04:19 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

Scientology is a religion for those who can afford it. Plain and simple. Its no different from any other "legitimate" religion except for the fact that it costs more.


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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6459451 - 01/14/07 05:32 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
You seem very defensive about Scientology. Are you Tom Cruise? Or have you simply been brainwashed through a Scientology schooling program?




are those my only two choices? seems like a "do you still beat your wife" type of question.
Let me ask you this sinbad: If you heard someone talking about mushrooms, and talking about how they make you impotent, can cause brain cancer, and cause gingivitis.... would you attempt to "Defend" mushrooms against that persons ignorance and set the record straight, and atleast be a retarding force against the spread of false and often damaging information?


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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Viveka]
    #6459495 - 01/14/07 05:43 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Viveka said:
Would you mind explaining what, in the Scientologists view, constitutes the 'soul', or the essence of self? Scientology makes it very clear that they are a religion and that they provide methods to empower the individual who chooses Scientology. They also make it clear that they are not fatalists, they don't believe the human animal is the true individual, but that you and I are somehow everlasting. Shit, don't take my word for it, read the following which I took straight out of the final sequence of the Scientology Orientation Video:

"In this brief moment, we have our temporary chance for handling and continuing life. Clouds loom over this culture and planet. In this short interval, in this one place, we have our freedom before us. We can arise above the decay; the final flash that will inevitably extinguish this planet. It is not our mission to save it. It is our mission to free you. You are an immortal being. Your life will not halt because this planet halts. You can go on."


So...where do we "go on"? In what form? What constitutes my "immortal being"?




well.... it is the same concept as the widespread concept of a "soul". The only difference is that they call it something different, as well as delve into more particular characterization of the soul.... They believe that you are a soul, and you dont "have a soul".
They believe that your soul is pure energy, and therefor cannot be destroyed and that a soul can enter into anything it wishes. They look at the body much like we would look at a car, it is a vehicle.... but the human body isnt the only possible vessel or vehicle.

Thanks for actually asking a serious question instead of making flagrant, unfounded accusations. I hope that answered it for you, if not, tell me and I will try to explain it to my best ability.


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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #6459542 - 01/14/07 05:59 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

It's just another mindless religion. Scientology, Christianity, Islam; it's all rubbish anyways.


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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6459672 - 01/14/07 06:27 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

By "particular characterization" of the soul are you refering to body thetans? What of the whole thetan thing anyway? Is that just part of the science fiction element of Scientology that should be ignored entirely by those looking to understand the practical worth of the religion and its practices or is the body thetan thing an integral part of the whole auditing process? My understanding is that it was and if it is, don't you think it shines a pretty unfavorable light on the whole affair?

Another red flag about the paragraph I quoted above is that it seems designed to address and allay prospective members fears of the unknown, or to provide an escape from the concept of their own annihilation. Not only is that dishonest but it perpetuates an even bigger problem, ego identificatiion. It's telling people YOU are this concrete identity and what you understand to be YOU from a human perspective is this important everlasting thing, so much so that you will continue to thrive when the planet is scorched, so long as you join Scientology. It's no different than the priest who says, accept Jesus and you'll ride his coattails to everlasting paradise, or the fatwah that declares, kill this infidel and you'll enjoy 69 virgins to the end of time. The essential similarity is that neither the priest, the cleric, nor L. Ron Hubbard have any idea what happens to the individual upon death. So why not drop the whole "spiritual" element and just present Scientology as something to improve human experience? The answer(s) to that question is what puts the whole affair in question.


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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Viveka]
    #6459794 - 01/14/07 06:50 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Viveka said:
By "particular characterization" of the soul are you refering to body thetans? What of the whole thetan thing anyway? Is that just part of the science fiction element of Scientology that should be ignored entirely by those looking to understand the practical worth of the religion and its practices or is the body thetan thing an integral part of the whole auditing process? My understanding is that it was and if it is, don't you think it shines a pretty unfavorable light on the whole affair?




Frankly, I have never heard the term "body thetans". It could exist, but in all the books I have read, it was never mentioned. But the term "Thetan is just another word for "soul".

Quote:

Another red flag about the paragraph I quoted above is that it seems designed to address and allay prospective members fears of the unknown, or to provide an escape from the concept of their own annihilation. Not only is that dishonest but it perpetuates an even bigger problem, ego identificatiion. It's telling people YOU are this concrete identity and what you understand to be YOU from a human perspective is this important everlasting thing, so much so that you will continue to thrive when the planet is scorched, so long as you join Scientology. It's no different than the priest who says, accept Jesus and you'll ride his coattails to everlasting paradise, or the fatwah that declares, kill this infidel and you'll enjoy 69 virgins to the end of time. The essential similarity is that neither the priest, the cleric, nor L. Ron Hubbard have any idea what happens to the individual upon death. So why not drop the whole "spiritual" element and just present Scientology as something to improve human experience? The answer(s) to that question is what puts the whole affair in question.




Well, I partially agree with you here. It is a promise of "afterlife", just like any other religion.... but they do have processes, which are active participations designed for personal cognition. It isnt ritualistic, nor is it something as passive as prayer, but rather "excercises".


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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #6460247 - 01/14/07 08:28 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

There's alot of controversy and rumor surrounding L. Ron, but isn't it pretty well established that he was a heavy drug user, and we are talking cocaine/heroin- things that can be spiritually detrimental as opposed to LSD


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Re: Talking with scientologists about drugs. [Re: CUBErt]
    #6460406 - 01/14/07 09:20 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

not to my knowledge, all i have heard regarding L. Ron's drug use was rumours that he was taking amphetamines.... but as for it being well established.... i mean, its someones word against a dead man..... but people will still believe what they wish, as long as it allows them to not have to re-evaluate their stance on the matter.


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