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EquilibriuM
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Re: The May 1st March. [Re: AaronEvil]
#5577393 - 05/01/06 01:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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It is about immigration reform. What does it matter that everyone agrees with it, if no one DOES ANYTHING about it?
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AaronEvil
The GuitarVillain


Registered: 09/27/04
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Quote:
EquilibriuM said: It is about immigration reform. What does it matter that everyone agrees with it, if no one DOES ANYTHING about it?
That issue has been talked about in Congress for many years. Its just a hard issue to resolve. I agree that the bill proposed recently is a bad bill, which is why it didnt pass. What I dont understand is the PROTESTING. The ditching work and school to make a "point" that immigration needs to be reformed, which is something we know in every branch of Government. When I say WE I am speaking of the national government (as far as I have read), not you and I. It seems to me people just want some reason to leave work and school. To me, it makes more of a statement if you go to work, go to school and protest in your free time. It says to me that you are an upstanding citizen and the issue is something you care enough about that you will spend your free time fighting for it. With that said, I have yet to hear a solution from the people protesting that doesnt involve rewarding criminals. I still think its a BS reason to take a day off without having to take responsibility for your actions. I hope many of them get fired or fail classes.
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There is not a lot of difference between a fox hole and a grave; but knowing that you dug your ditch and climbed in anyway.
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EquilibriuM
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Re: The May 1st March. [Re: AaronEvil]
#5577439 - 05/01/06 02:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
AaronEvil said:
Quote:
EquilibriuM said: It is about immigration reform. What does it matter that everyone agrees with it, if no one DOES ANYTHING about it?
That issue has been talked about in Congress for many years. Its just a hard issue to resolve. I agree that the bill proposed recently is a bad bill, which is why it didnt pass. What I dont understand is the PROTESTING. The ditching work and school to make a "point" that immigration needs to be reformed, which is something we know in every branch of Government. When I say WE I am speaking of the national government (as far as I have read), not you and I. It seems to me people just want some reason to leave work and school. To me, it makes more of a statement if you go to work, go to school and protest in your free time. It says to me that you are an upstanding citizen and the issue is something you care enough about that you will spend your free time fighting for it. With that said, I have yet to hear a solution from the people protesting that doesnt involve rewarding criminals. I still think its a BS reason to take a day off without having to take responsibility for your actions. I hope many of them get fired or fail classes.
I don't know if you have been watching the news, but alot of the protesters have been encouraging people to go after work or after school, alot of the protesters have requested/been given the day off of work. They aren't going to be paid if they don't show up, what kind of responsibility should they have to face?
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AaronEvil
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Im speaking based on what I am seeing rather than what is being encouraged. I had a Psycology class this morning which has a very diverse population. There were 10 kids out of about 35 that showed up. There were notes on a lot of the classroom doors where teachers posted absent slips because they were not showing up. I left my class at one of the most crowded points in the day and the parking lots were fairly empty. I would love to say that what I see is responsibility, but based on the facts (again only the things I have seen) I have to conclude that a majority of people are not doing this in their free time.
My girlfriend also told me here work is very under staffed today. She works for a government contractor. To me... its ridiculous. Im not asking anyone to agree, I just want to know WHY they are protesting an idea everyone agrees on and what their resolution to the issue is.
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There is not a lot of difference between a fox hole and a grave; but knowing that you dug your ditch and climbed in anyway.
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EquilibriuM
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Re: The May 1st March. [Re: AaronEvil]
#5577502 - 05/01/06 02:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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..... double post...
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Edited by EquilibriuM (05/01/06 02:38 PM)
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EquilibriuM
dream stalker

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Re: The May 1st March. [Re: AaronEvil]
#5577503 - 05/01/06 02:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I think that the point of the protest is to put pressure on politicians to take action. All they have done so far is beat around the bush, sure they talk about it, but they haven't done shit. I'm not sure the protesters have the solution, I'm also not sure it is their job to produce one...
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geokills
∙∙∙∙☼ º¿° ☼∙∙∙∙


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Re: The May 1st March. [Re: AaronEvil]
#5577526 - 05/01/06 02:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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What is this idea that "everyone agrees on" ? I understand that most people believe something needs to be done about immigration policy... however as for what specifically needs to be done, I do not see universal agreement at all. If there were, reform bills would be passing both the house and the senate, and there would be little need for such large protest. Granted, I don't believe that today's protests are necessary - as supporters of more lenient immigration reform already have gained considerable momentum through protests over the last month. To call for a nationwide boycott may even be counterproductive given that a boycott is something that I feel should be used in the event of political a roadblock - however the issue of immigration has made it to light and is being actively discussed, perhaps not by the House, but certainly by the Senate and the populous at large. A boycott may work against proponents of lenient reform in that it will harden the stance of their opponents, in essense - taking this a step too far. Then again, I do see clearly the intention to let more Americans know and experience within their own daily lives, the impact that the immigrant community has on our society and economy. Even so, I don't think the results of today's protests will be easily quantifiable by any means.
Speaking personally - here in Los Angeles this matter is getting widespread press, as I'm sure it is over much of the nation, but it is also fairly visible here in public. Driving around today I noticed a marked decrease in traffic on the roadways, and generally a quieter atmosphere all around the outskirts of the city from northern Los Angeles into Orange County. I do see some businesses closed, but many are still open in the outlaying communities. One thing for certain, here in Los Angeles the public interest has been tapped well and this matter will not be drying up anytime soon.
I think one of the most interesting contradictions in this debate is that a large portion of the proponents should arguably have no place in our political process - as policy governing our nation should be hashed out through its citizens and congressmen, and therefore many have stated that the opinions of the illegal immigrants who are protesting should really hold no bearing. I'd like to know the answer to a question which was proposed today on "To the Point" (an NPR day program produced here in Los Angeles): Is policy made in Washington, or is it made in the streets? It will be interesting to see..
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-------------------- ┼ ··∙ long live the shroomery ∙·· ┼ ...╬π╥ ╥π╬...
Edited by geokills (05/01/06 02:50 PM)
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AaronEvil
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Re: The May 1st March. [Re: geokills]
#5577551 - 05/01/06 02:56 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Im saying the idea of immigration reform is agreed upon. That being said, they are (in my opinion) prostesting nothing. I dont see a solution to the issue, nor am I proposing one, just the same as I am not protesting. I think they should lobby for immigration reform rather than boycott. We cant all agree on a resolution because we all disagree on what that resolution would be. That is why we should be writing our representatives and let them know what it is WE want. I dont think a public outrage like this is necessary at this point in time. I do think that in some circumstances this situation would benefit some sort of group. But as of now... its pointless and can get irritable.
Quote:
I think one of the most interesting contradictions in this debate is that a large portion of the proponents should arguably have no place in our political process - as policy governing our nation should be hashed out through its citizens and congressmen, and therefore many have stated that the opinions of the illegal immigrants who are protesting should really hold no bearing. I'd like to know the answer to a question which was proposed today on "To the Point" (an NPR day program produced here in Los Angeles): Is policy made in Washington, or is it made in the streets? It will be interesting to see..
I would assume that they arent in support of immigration, but in support of legal immigration reform. At least that is what I have been taking from all these stances people have. If they are infact supporting illegal immigration, I would probably hold a counter protest.
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There is not a lot of difference between a fox hole and a grave; but knowing that you dug your ditch and climbed in anyway.
Edited by AaronEvil (05/01/06 02:58 PM)
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geokills
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Re: The May 1st March. [Re: AaronEvil]
#5577696 - 05/01/06 03:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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> I dont see a solution to the issue, nor am I proposing one, just the same as I am not protesting.
Well, I am not protesting either; but I would like to propose a potential solution that I outlined in the Pub thread I linked above. The underlying necessity to any type of immigration reform, is to effectively protect/police both our borders and our employers. Afterall, regardless of whether or not the current lot of illegal immigrants are granted amnesty; unless employers are given an incentive to stop hiring illegal immigrants, and unless our border is protected - more illegal immigrants will continue to arrive as long as there are jobs here willing to take them. Therefore, in line with suggestions proposed by Chris Matthews of NBC's Hardball program, I would like to see:- Amnesty for current immigrants: They are here, they are working, and our economy has been flexible enough to assimilate them into it. To suddenly remove millions of immigrants from our working economy would cause serious economic and social tremors in the near term. The only practical thing to do, is to let them stay, work, tax them, and the system goes on as it has for the past many years, without any disruption or rearrangement necessary.
- Actively monitor and punish employers who hire non-documented immigrants: As stated above, if employers realize that they can't get away with hiring illegals, then it stands to reason that they will hire legal workers instead, even if they have to pay them slightly more. A 10% increase in worker pay is a small price compared to serious federal fines and even jail time... and once the employers stop hiring non-documented workers, the rapid influx of illegal immigrants will naturally slow due to the reduced incentive.
- Strengthen Border Security: In conjunction with policing American employers, a strengthening of the border will aid in further reducing the influx of illegal immigrants who may wish to work "under the table" jobs such as house cleaning or baby-sitting. While our borders are probably too large to fully protect on a reasonable budget at the current time, there should still be additional measures to reduce the relative ease of human smugglers from bringing in immigrants. Every little bit of added security will help, however I do feel that this part of the solution is secondary to the active policing of American businesses.
- Set new & flexible standards for legal immigration: The idea here is to maintain active review of emerging job opportunities in the United States, and accordingly increase or hold steady the number of allotted legal immigrants that are eligible for green cards or citizenship. As it stands, there most certainly seems to be a disparity, as domestic unemployment has been falling, while the number of immigrants (legal + illegal) has been rising, and therefore a logical conclusion is that in fact our economy can support an additional immigrant work force. It just so happens that with the current immigration policies, we are restricting this to too great of a degree, and therefore the fundamental laws of supply & demand are what is driving more immigrants to illegally gain entry to the country.
In my view, the aforementioned courses of action could serve well to appease both the growing immigrant community as well as those concerned that illegal immigration is getting out of control; simultaneously allowing our economy to operate smoothly without any additional hindrance or serious restructuring necessary, while also improving the quality of life for all Americans by finally legitimizing something that we have always "quietly accepted" and made good use of (namely, cheap labor). These quality of life improvements would manifest themselves through increased tax revenue as well as increased safety on the job, where I'm sure many employers who are hiring non-documented workers overlook many standards and practices for worker safety, simply because they know that no undocumented worker is going to file a suit against them should anything go wrong.
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-------------------- ┼ ··∙ long live the shroomery ∙·· ┼ ...╬π╥ ╥π╬...
Edited by geokills (05/01/06 03:48 PM)
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gluke bastid
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Re: The May 1st March. [Re: AaronEvil]
#5577713 - 05/01/06 03:48 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
AaronEvil said:
Its just a hard issue to resolve. I agree that the bill proposed recently is a bad bill, which is why it didnt pass. What I dont understand is the PROTESTING. The ditching work and school to make a "point" that immigration needs to be reformed, which is something we know in every branch of Government.
The protest has a lot more cultural significance than it does political significance...you are right to highlight the fact that today's (non)activity will not make a solution any more apparent. I think the whole point of the boycotting etc. is that illegals seem to think that people don't understand that, while they aren't supposed to be are, they are actually here in large numbers and do have a significant presence in America. Which you can't argue. You can argue whether or not they should be deported on the grounds of economics, justice, compassion, or even just legal dogma. However I think they seek to prove that there are so many of them that when they all get together to organize a boycott there will be significant effects.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: The May 1st March. [Re: Ekstaza]
#5577851 - 05/01/06 04:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ekstaza said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Ekstaza said: Not in all cases. Farm laborers do not have to paid minimum wage. Immigrants or citizens.
Bullshit.
Read it and weep sucker
Give it a fucking rest. From the link.
Section 13(a)(6) of the Act exempts from the minimum wage requirements of section 6 and from the overtime pay requirements of section 7:
Any employee employed in agriculture: (A) If such employee is employed by an employer who did not, during any calendar quarter during the preceding calendar year, use more than 500 man-days of agricultural labor, (B) if such employee is the parent, spouse, child, or other member of his employer's immediate family, (C) if such employee (i) is employed as a hand harvest laborer and is paid on a piece-rate basis in an operation which has been, and is customarily and generally recognized as having been, paid on a piece- rate basis in the region of employment, (ii) commutes daily from his permanent residence to the farm on which he is so employed, and (iii) has been employed in agriculture less than 13 weeks during the preceding calendar year, (D) if such employee (other than an employee described in clause (C) of this subsection) (i) is 16 years of age or under and is employed as a hand harvest laborer, is paid on a piece-rate basis in an operation which has been, and is customarily and generally recognized as having been, paid on a piece-rate basis in the region of employment, (ii) is employed on the same farm as his parent or person standing in the place of his parent, and (iii) is paid at the same piece rate as employees over age 16 are paid on the same farm, or (E) if such employee is principally engaged in the range production of livestock."
It goes on. What? Children working on their parent's farm or working to replace their piece work parents. "16 or under". Children.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: The May 1st March. [Re: zappaisgod]
#5578248 - 05/01/06 05:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Oh my fucking God!!!
The economy came to a screching halt today!!!
(my ass)
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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downforpot
Stranger

Registered: 06/25/01
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businesses did. A lot of stores and warehouses were closed today.
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http://www.myspace.com/4th25 "And I don't care if he was handcuffed Then shot in his head All I know is dead bodies Can't fuck with me again"
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GabbaDj
BTH


Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,679
Loc: By The Lake
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Re: The May 1st March. [Re: downforpot]
#5578544 - 05/01/06 07:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Even more proof that we need to kick the Mexicans out and give them jobs to Americans.
Right now the city of Burbank is debating a law that would make illegal to hire undocumented workers. Those caught doing so are fined several thousand dollars and lose their business license for 5 years..
Im all for letting Imigrants into our country but they must agree to be Americans. For those who have never been to L.A. let me tell you it sucks.
More than half the city is writen all in spanish and you cant even tell your even in America cuz EVERYONE you see is Mexican.
First thing I said at work today. "I stoped to pick up breakfast for everyone today but theirs nobody selling fruit on the offramp so looks like its just coffee.
-------------------- GabbaDj FAMM.ORG
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Ekstaza
stranger than most


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Re: The May 1st March. [Re: zappaisgod]
#5578585 - 05/01/06 07:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Ekstaza said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Ekstaza said: Not in all cases. Farm laborers do not have to paid minimum wage. Immigrants or citizens.
Bullshit.
Read it and weep sucker
Give it a fucking rest. From the link.
It goes on. What? Children working on their parent's farm or working to replace their piece work parents. "16 or under". Children.
I assumed you knew to follow the links and continue reading. My bad. Farmworkers
There are many ways that a farmer can deny minimum wage to their farm hands. I live in a rural area where there are nothing but farms everywhere. I see it happen all of the time. I questioned the practice and was led to the Department of Labor farmworkers website to be assured that the farmers were in fact within the letter of the law(if not the spirit).
Do, say, post or whatever you need to do to feel comfortable about what you believe, but it happens.
-------------------- YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Minorities can't reach positions of power? You must have missed the memo about Condi Rice and Mr. Powell.
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EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
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Re: The May 1st March. [Re: Redstorm]
#5579986 - 05/02/06 12:45 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: Minorities can't reach positions of power? You must have missed the memo about Condi Rice and Mr. Powell.
You are hearing but not listening. Those are not real positions of power, they are programmed.
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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What about Supreme Court Justice Thomas? That is a position of extreme power.
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EquilibriuM
dream stalker

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Re: The May 1st March. [Re: Redstorm]
#5580021 - 05/02/06 12:58 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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You make a good point, I'll have to reconsider some of my thoughts.
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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I understand what you're saying, though, and agree to an extent. While many minorites may have to work harder to escape poverty, I don't believe there is an institutionalized barrier that purposely keeps them out of power.
It's not a black and white issue. You have to look at the gray.
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