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InvisibleIcelander
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Long Range Hedonism
    #5567932 - 04/28/06 06:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

This is not a new post but one I dug up from the past at another forum I belong to. Lets see if it's worth discussion here. Do me one favor please. Don't take any of my terms too seriously (like nihilism or hedonism) they may not be defined as usual. Instead take a look at the basic idea I'm presenting and see if it makes any sense to you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may not be the smartest guys on the planet, but it's become clear enough to me that no one (NO ONE) knows what is really going on.(if we're being honest IMO). Millions of opinions (each a little or a lot different) but nothing conclusive, we have yet to agree on or prove to a majority what is reality or truth or anything.

  I kind of agree with Nihilism when it says nothing matters myself.But Nihilists tend to be a dreary lot. Hey, if nothing "matters" why not choose whatever is the most fun and satisfying and do it?

I like a term coined by Albert Ellis; Long Range Hedonism because of its nice balance. You still brush your teeth at night even though it's not fun, but you know that there is a nice long term pleasure pay off for that little bit of discomfort. In fact you can have that nice piece of chocolate cake now and not fret.

Now here comes the important part.

Now Ellis discovered the best way to practice LRH is to never give yourself a global rating. You can rate the things you do so you can see how they are serving your happiness, but you don't have enough knowledge of the Ultimate Meaning of life to know if you are good or bad for being exactly what you are. So Logically you can't really rate yourself good or bad. For example if you call your self good, then does that mean everything you have ever done is good? Or if you say you're a shit and bad, does that mean you are completely bad and everything you have ever done has been bad?

I DON'T THINK SO.

So why tell your self such nonsense?(I'm good or I'm bad) It's NOT LOGICAL, and usually brings on the suffering and dissatisfaction big time. And really, don't you want to be happy? THEN QUIT WITH THE GLOBAL RATINGS. IN FACT REFUSE TO RATE YOURSELF AT ALL.

OK, now do what you really find brings you happiness. See if you can choose the things that bring you pleasure and joy. Go ahead, try it.

You may need to stalk yourself(ala Don Juan) for awhile to get the hang of this. Watch your self talk and see what you are telling yourself about yourself. If you are rating yourself instead of your acts then don't tell your self not to do that; instead challenge your self talk using LOGIC. Can you really logically defend the things you tell yourself about yourself? If you start to pay attention to your thoughts it will freak you out. Did you know very few of us think very logically? It's true and this is true of the brilliant as well as the stupid on the emotional level at least.

I finally began adopting this philosophy after 50+ years of struggle and self lothing and SHOULDING ALL OVER MYSELF, AND MUSTERBATING MADLY. I was pretty unhappy and pissed off not to mention sad. I'm a little bit better/happier now and I'm working on getting more. :grin:

These ideas came from the neo-shamanic use of psychedelics and the rational emotive behavior ideas if Elbert Ellis and Ken Keyes.

I wanted to share this because it is the ONLY THING that worked towards my happiness in this fairly crazy life on this kooky planet.I'm not saying it's the only truth or the only way, but maybe it's worth a look and maybe you might find that it works for you.

--------------------


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (04/28/06 07:12 PM)


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Invisibledorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
Re: Long Range Hedonism [Re: Icelander]
    #5568066 - 04/28/06 07:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Excellent post. Thank you, Sir.


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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Long Range Hedonism [Re: Icelander]
    #5568287 - 04/28/06 08:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Interesting views. The only thing I dislike about it is that it seems to be an extraordinarily egocentric way of thinking. That anyone who follows LRH would evaluate actions based on whether or not it has the potential to bring pleasure in the long run to him/herself. This would really emphasize the division between self and other, between "you" and "I". And this is not the Way it is, so why practice a philosophy that enhances such feelings? Correct me if my interpretation is incorrect.

That's my feeling on the matter, but to each his own.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Invisibledorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
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Re: Long Range Hedonism [Re: dblaney]
    #5568458 - 04/28/06 09:00 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Not if there is an understanding of the underlying unity and one acts from the perspective of being what one perceives.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Long Range Hedonism [Re: Icelander]
    #5568491 - 04/28/06 09:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I more like a good balance of egoistic and altruistic 'hedonism'.
The long range is good, but it shouldn't be coupled with bad things in the moment, as we, with limited human understanding, can not forsee the whole of correlations which lead to effects in the future...assumed it is all predeterministic.
There lies all in the moment. You may enjoy chocolate with cleaning teeth perhaps once a day (not 3 times a day), IF you live healthy and eat some fibres afterwards, for example. And to add: If you enjoy the essence of chocolate (with no artificial sugar), then your teeth won't be hurt :smile:
[So, perhaps I see it like: Humans do artificial unnatural things for their pleasure (adding sugar to everything) without considering longterm consequences. If they can grasp the consequences they provoked, they try to use artificial shit again (clean teeth 3 times a day with flouride, a neuro toxin), to get rid of their own produced problems...again not overlooking the consequences. So the circle will be enforced to circle and de-neturalise us farther and farther from reality, into human made concepts of vage self arrogance]

I don't think the results will justify every mean.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (04/28/06 09:29 PM)


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Invisibledorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
Re: Long Range Hedonism [Re: dblaney]
    #5568684 - 04/28/06 09:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Think of it as many people gathered around a giant flag to lift it up together. All have their position and are supposed to stand there and keep the flag in the air. Sometimes you see other people struggling to keep their end of the flag in the air, they might have harder terms or the wind might mess with it. You get tempted to keep your flag in the air, but at the same time move over to help them. This messes up the whole scheme of things, and the flag gets twisted and distorted. You should focus on keeping your part of the flag stable and uplifted, which in turn makes it easier for others to hold their part up. If the people around you struggle and are not able to hold the flag in the air, your part will be so much heavier. You will struggle more. So giving advice to help stabilize everyone will be helpful both for your part and for theirs. People are only receptive when they question though, so forcing advice on them will never help. That creates more tension and frustration.

Politics is messing up the flag. It goes against acceptance and creates suffering. It is trying to change people by influence and outside force. Change can only come from the inside. Collective change is born out of collective insight and internal realizations. It might never happen, and it might never have been meant to happen. Life lives on.

If it is all a dream, and we are all one, then being self centred around the individual perspective you are currently incarnating is not a bad thing at all. Why would we be so obsessed with survival, clinging to life?


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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: Long Range Hedonism [Re: dorkus]
    #5569045 - 04/28/06 11:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I think Buddhism is named "The Middle Way" quite aptly. There are two extremes: one can be entirely self-denying, even to the point of asceticism which really is self-torture; or one can be entirely self-indulgent, which is what I feel this LRH is. The Middle Way involves a balance between the two: satisfying your natural needs and intuitions, but not going to the excesses of seeking all sorts of sensual pleasure and gratification and such. If such gratification happens to arise, then great! Welcome it in. And when it goes, don't worry about it or give it a second thought. This is being unattached.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Invisibledorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
Re: Long Range Hedonism [Re: dblaney]
    #5569445 - 04/29/06 01:43 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Does the suffering of the past still hurt? If we wake up from a nightmare is the suffering we experienced in that dream still suffering or is it transformed into joyous relief upon awakening (death)? Why is the Buddha laughing his ass off?

The middle way you talk of is also a self centred philosophy to eradicate suffering in ones own life. It just says that being attached to gratification creates more personal suffering. Therefore one should follow the middle way of unattachment. It doesn't go against LRH, as the example of toothbrushing showed. It is only the wisest and most efficient way to end ones suffering. It is myself I seek to set free. Correct me if I'm wrong, please. :smile:

Maybe LRH is closer to the Tantric path though. I don't know.


Edited by dr_mandelbrot (04/29/06 01:58 AM)


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Invisibledorkus
don't look back
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Posts: 1,511
Re: Long Range Hedonism [Re: dorkus]
    #5569544 - 04/29/06 02:56 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The rebel drops his facade. He is not against any regime, against any society. He is not bothered by all that nonsense. Those who are interested in that, let them do their work. The rebel is simply very self-oriented. I have been condemned by many sources around the world because I teach people selfishness. Yes, I teach selfishness. It is not a condemnation, this is my whole philosophy. I teach you to be selfish because unselfishness has been taught for thousands of years and it has not helped anybody.

I teach you to be just self-oriented.

Drop all the rubbish that is in you. Clean yourself and start living as if you are the first and the last man in the world. The first, so that you don't have to carry the burden of the past, because there is no past. And the last, so that you need not worry about the future, about what will happen to your children. They will take care of themselves.


Osho gives his definition of a rebel


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Long Range Hedonism [Re: dorkus]
    #5569580 - 04/29/06 03:47 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

don't worry about your children ??
I am sorry, I can't take someone serious, who isn't worried about the mess he will leave for his children [even meant picturely] if he lives a pure self-oriented way of life.

Irony on: Who needs elephants or rainforests any more, as long as I can live a happy live, get my cheap flesh and go on fun-safari every year ? I even make debts without ends, because I haven't to pay it back, my children will take care of themselves. Haha, good live !

I am shuddered. The argument that the other way has been practiced for thousands of years and did not get anywhere is fatal. Its effectiveness is quite short ranged, because there are still too view people practicing it. If nobody will practice it and everybody does the self-oriented way, human devastation will speed up a lot !


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Invisibledorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
Re: Long Range Hedonism [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5569603 - 04/29/06 04:41 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

As to the roaming of sages,
They move in utter emptiness,
Let their minds meander in the great nothingness;
They run beyond convention
And go through where there is no gateway.
They listen to the soundless
And look at the formless,
They are not constrained by society
And not bound to its customs.

- Lao-tze

I think Osho believes in anarchism. That we should stop playing the old game altogether. Maybe it is too radical? I need to think about this. :smile: Some claim suffering purifies and destruction speeds up evolution. Are volcanoes evil in their destructive nature? Are humanity another destructive evolutionary tool for earth? Or maybe society and culture as we know it is some kind of virus? Ambition and lack of acceptance in things as they were would be the spark of that.


Edited by dr_mandelbrot (04/29/06 04:47 AM)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Long Range Hedonism [Re: dorkus]
    #5569611 - 04/29/06 05:01 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I am partially anarchist, too. Hedonism and anarchy don't mix very well, imho, because one crosses the boarders to the needs of others too often, one even doesn't see them.
Anarchism with care for the needs of the others (I don't know if that is possible) is a good thing of course. Everyone should be able to do everything, if it doesn't cross the NEEDS of others.
Imho, the good everlasting moment should be a right for every sentient living creature on earth.
Perhaps, if the human individuals are spiritual mature for themselves, there could be a good anarchism. The individuums would know when something is enough for them or when they are in essential need of something, and would search a balanced way to achieve it. That could automatically stop the harm on others.
I have to think about it :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Long Range Hedonism [Re: dblaney]
    #5569847 - 04/29/06 09:26 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
Interesting views. The only thing I dislike about it is that it seems to be an extraordinarily egocentric way of thinking. That anyone who follows LRH would evaluate actions based on whether or not it has the potential to bring pleasure in the long run to him/herself. This would really emphasize the division between self and other, between "you" and "I". And this is not the Way it is, so why practice a philosophy that enhances such feelings? Correct me if my interpretation is incorrect.

That's my feeling on the matter, but to each his own.




Exactly. Real pleasure. That benefits everyone and not just yourself. You're thinking along different lines then I am. If you really want to be happy you don't hord everything for yourself, that's how you're seeing this. Rational thinking takes care of that. Yet almost no one thinks far enough to get there. Sharing resorces and emotional energy brings pleasure, hording is a fear addiction and does not. See where I'm going with the idea of enlightened self-interest?

Behold the wisdom of Veritas

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...rue#Post4300784


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Long Range Hedonism [Re: Icelander]
    #5569934 - 04/29/06 11:40 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

yo dr mandelbrot, that rebel stuff is pretty slick, thanks

icelander, also on using logic to regulate selftalk and therefore emotion, i think alot of people fall into the trap, i feel so therefore i am. which is illogical yet Very real to them, creating a self digging pit. illogical since feelings are the result of the thoughts.


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Offlinebobjones
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Re: Long Range Hedonism [Re: Icelander]
    #5569947 - 04/29/06 11:48 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

*makes note to read all posts by icelander and veritas  :smirk:


--------------------
"Outside of a dog a book is a man's friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read"
-Groucho Marx


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