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InvisibleThorA
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
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Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
Theory that was inspired by B+
    #556462 - 02/19/02 04:26 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Here's an interesting read from Mr. G. One of the oldest and most talented cultivators around...

The common believe among mycologists was that the Psilocybes started as a single species and later mutated to climatic and other conditions. Perhaps if a meteor really wiped out the dinosaurs and most life. the most genetically diverse spores from the single Psilocybe were able to adapt and grow in decaying wood, bark and chips. Perhaps the Ph of the ash generated by the volcanic irruption's mutated them. Perhaps the heat from Lava flows mutated some and helped create the Pacific NW kind. Perhaps the B+ is a cubensis turned into a completely new, improperly named Psilocybe of it's own. FMRC has a Psilocybe that has yet to be named. It was discovered in SE Asia I believe. Fungi are mutating and evolution is constantly taking place. I think with the B+ we created a new shroom. It could have originally been a cubensis, a Stuntzii, or any other number of things. Only the person who falsely sold it to JLF in the beginning is the one who will truly know. He may have meant no deception and innocently discovered a new shroom himself. I would estimate there are several hundred Psilocybes yet to be discovered if not thousands as well as pans and other who may be psychoactive and not even use any know chemical at this time. Only time and research will tell.

If anyone has any information on the use of P. Cyanescens, P. Azurescens, or any of the N. Western varieties of Psilocybe by the native Americans so we can get a time line on perhaps the first recorded or rumored or if possible proven use of these fungi, please e-mail to the shroomery admin. and ask to pass it to Mr. G. I am trying very hard to finish a book and i need and i am not to proud to ask for all the help I can get. I greatly appreciate any and all help and thoughts...........Thanks.......Mr.G

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Invisiblemycofile
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Registered: 01/18/99
Posts: 2,336
Loc: Uranus
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Re: Theory that was inspired by B+ [Re: Thor]
    #556480 - 02/19/02 04:49 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Are you telling us that this is a recent post, or that it's an old gem? Mr. G was a cool cat even if he couldn't spell. Wish he were still around.
That said I think some of the stuff he said was incorrect. Matter of opinion strictly, but IMO B+ is a cube. I'm sure there are many unidentified psilocybes, but the B+ doesn't seem to be one to me.


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"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.

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InvisibleThorA
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Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
Re: Theory that was inspired by B+ [Re: mycofile]
    #556484 - 02/19/02 04:54 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Mr G is back, he asked me to post this, so feel free to comment since he will be reading this.....

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OfflineAzure
old hand
Registered: 12/31/98
Posts: 469
Loc: California, USA
Last seen: 21 years, 11 months
Re: Theory that was inspired by B+ [Re: mycofile]
    #556486 - 02/19/02 04:56 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

I don't see how you can question whether the B+ strain is a cube or not...It is one of the very foundations of cubes!

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Anonymous

Re: Theory that was inspired by B+ [Re: Thor]
    #556739 - 02/19/02 08:29 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think any of the listed species were here when then indegionous people ruled. They seem to be introduced species, along with cubensis, and the active Panaeolus. All of these species are associated with introduced animal dung, or with man made disturbed habitats(wood chips). If they were native species they would be associated with natural habitats. Some seem to be getting better at working their way into natural habitats.

Is there some microscopic evidence that differentiates the B+ from the rest of the cubensis complex?

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InvisibleNighted
Ghost

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 698
Loc: Funkytown
Re: Theory that was inspired by B+ [Re: Thor]
    #556750 - 02/19/02 08:36 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

One thing I do know is that the first nations people DID NOT consume cubensis or any other species found growing on dung. Ps. Cyanescens and Ps. Azurescens is a definite possibility though.


--------------------

Freedom defined is freedom denied.

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Anonymous

Re: Theory that was inspired by B+ [Re: Nighted]
    #556947 - 02/19/02 11:41 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Has anyone come across information on the dune grass Ammophila maritima, or is it actually the introduced European dune grass Ammophila arenaria?

ANNO can you do a search on this, please.

When I do searches I come up with Ammophila arenaria and several plants not related, Armeria maritima, Cutandia maritima, Puccinellia maritima. The other species of Ammophila I can find is on the east coast, and great lakes. It is native.


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InvisibleMicronMagick
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Registered: 10/16/01
Posts: 1,026
Post deleted by users_request [Re: ]
    #556955 - 02/19/02 11:57 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Post deleted by administrator.

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Anonymous

Re: Theory that was inspired by B+ [Re: MicronMagick]
    #556975 - 02/20/02 12:20 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Spores, Pleurocystidia, Cheilocystidia : shape, size, quantity.

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Offlinezeronio
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Registered: 10/16/01
Posts: 2,349
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Re: Theory that was inspired by B+ [Re: ]
    #557039 - 02/20/02 01:20 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

We should try to mate B+ with other cubensis species to confirm/refuse that theory.

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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
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Re: Theory that was inspired by B+ [Re: Nighted]
    #557109 - 02/20/02 03:17 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

There is no evidence of Australian Indigenous peoples consuming Australian native woodlovers - whilest from Mjshroomers work, it becomes clear that Cubensis, Pan Cyans, Ps.Semilanceata and a few others came through imported livestock - we also have native Australian varieties, such as the Ps.Subaeruginosa which is strikingly similar macroscopically to Azurescens and Australiana that are far more prevelant now with the spread of both landscape gardens and Pinus Radiata plantations.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Registered: 01/18/99
Posts: 2,336
Loc: Uranus
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Re: Theory that was inspired by B+ [Re: Thor]
    #558306 - 02/21/02 08:42 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Wow! Well Mr. G, I guess you're reading this if Thor says so. I tried tracking you down several times after you left, but my emails were never answered even though I think they were getting delivered. Anyway, I have no idea what any of the several important things I wanted to discuss back then are now. Probably about polyploidism and mutation for breeding, but I just don't remember now. You know you were a great assett to the community and should start posting again.

Anyway, I'll see what I can dig up about your topic...


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.

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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Theory that was inspired by B+ [Re: Thor]
    #558315 - 02/21/02 08:52 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Well, my first thought about the subject of native use is that I don't know much about the pacific NW traditional use. I've studied the central and south american ancestors much more thoroughly than our domestic ones. One thing to consider is the link between parts of central as well as south america and the pacific northwest region. The spread of the natives down the pacific to south america was much faster than most would think. I would find it hard to believe that usage of P. mexicanna and P. cubensis in the south didn't have a direct cultural link to the usage of woodlovers in the pacific NW and perhaps even a link to the usage of amanitas or tropical psilocybes depending on where in asia they came from.

I should have some extensive info on early usage further south, as well as interesting info on migration and trade links between the two regions that may help make the connection more solid. Then again, so would any good anthropology book on the subject.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.

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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Theory that was inspired by B+ [Re: mycofile]
    #558504 - 02/21/02 12:09 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

As an example, the mexican natives (Mayas, Aztecs, etc) never consumed P.cubensis, they were dedicated to local psylocibes (e.g.,P. mexicana, P. mazapotec), it looks like P.Cubensis trip was not the same as native species and the porpuse of the rituals required specific mushrooms, so the natives didn't use or like the "imported" cubensis.

Peace,
MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Offlinerommstein2001
Rise ye Must!
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Registered: 05/10/01
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Re: Theory that was inspired by B+ [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #558509 - 02/21/02 12:15 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

I don't believe that B+ is a species all it's own, but a simple hybrid breeding test should proove or disproove this theory. The thing about thousands of new species yet to be discovered..Of course there are. every day at least 10 species die and 15 new ones pop up. This is for all the mushroom kingdom, but occasionally there wil be a new psilocybe or pan.


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Registered: 06/18/01
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Re: Theory that was inspired by B+ [Re: mycofile]
    #558775 - 02/21/02 04:45 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

I have to state here again that i have found very little or no evidence of South-East Asian peoples actually consuming psilocybes. Im sure one could try and prove a case about ancient Khmer civilisations using psychoactive fungi, but my Archaeology books say otherwise.
As for thailand, the locals didnt even know about these mushrooms (and i spoke to many about them) until the 60s when German tourists arrived on Ko Samui and Ko Pha Ngan. From there, the locals started collecting the shrooms to sell them to tourists just the same way they try to sell you e's and speed at their fullmoon parties - to try and cash in on the tourist dollar. Its fair enough, but we never spoke to one thai person who had actually tried the 'buffalo-shit' mushrooms.
A doctor at Bandon international hospital also told us how the shrooms are often dipped in LSD to ensure effect.
yeah - from what ive read, the south americans didnt like the imported san isidros (cubensis) for their rituals.


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Offlinecamel
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Registered: 04/02/99
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Re: Theory that was inspired by B+ [Re: Thor]
    #562071 - 02/25/02 12:11 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Psilocybe subcubensis...

peace
camel


--------------------
Don't do drugs.

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OfflineZorba
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Registered: 02/11/02
Posts: 77
Loc: Victoria, B.C.
Last seen: 21 years, 11 months
Re: Theory that was inspired by B+ [Re: Thor]
    #562094 - 02/25/02 12:49 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Mutations actually play quite a minor role in evolution. Adaptation to a new environment over millions of years usually through something called repetitive differentiation is the major evolutionary driving force. Because spores are so light and can easily migrate over great distances, mushrooms are a good example of adaptive radiation- a species travelling to a new location and evolving through adapting to the new suroundings. I don't know if you are planning on putting anything about the evolution of species in the book but you probably don't want to mention mutations everywhere if you do.

I was also wondering something as I wrote that. Are all the cubensis strains able to be crossbred? If they are not crossable, then they are actually seperate species by definition. I haven't tried to cross any varieties so if anyone could enlighten me on the subject it would be appreciated.

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InvisibleGGreatOne234
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 8,946
Re: Theory that was inspired by B+ [Re: Thor]
    #562441 - 02/25/02 10:39 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

B+ is a test tube baby.

Wild Cubensis havent changed any.

Subcubensis is another option as to what B+ ever was in the first place.

Subcube's have been documented from several Carribean island countries.
-And if B+ was originally brought to us from florida,
then that is close enough for me to believe florida shroomers also find subcube unknowingly.

Bust out the microscopes kiddies...

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InvisibleSixTango
Mycota

Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 1,996
Loc: A little North of Paradis...
Re: Theory that was inspired by B+ [Re: Thor]
    #562672 - 02/25/02 02:16 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

For whatever it's worth;

English Marram grass (ammophila arenaria) & Baltic Marram grass (Calammophila baltica) were intoduced into the US, Australia & elsewhere by the British botonists around mid to late 1700's for use in sand dune & silt control around Colonial ports, jetties & river mouths.

It was brought to the US & Canadian west coast, for the same purpose around the mid 1850's. Azures can be found near or in it along the Pacific Northwest coast & Dunes National Recreation area of Oregon (Coos Bay to Florence).

SixTango - out


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~whiskey river rafting, hot tubbing, dirty dancing & spending money on - wild women - having fun & just gonna waste the rest~

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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Theory that was inspired by B+ [Re: GGreatOne234]
    #562876 - 02/25/02 05:49 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

A once asked Workman which cubensis he believed to be Subcubensis - he never got back to me on that one :-(


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Anonymous

Re: Theory that was inspired by B+ [Re: SixTango]
    #564161 - 02/26/02 08:14 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks again SixTango!!! It is amazing what can be introduced into new habitats totally unintentional.

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Anonymous

Re: Theory that was inspired by B+ [Re: Nighted]
    #566704 - 03/01/02 09:28 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

I live on the west coast of BC and as far as I know, Native Americans in this area had no interest at all in mushrooms. Even edible ones.

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InvisibleAssHumper10K
enthusiast
Registered: 11/11/01
Posts: 249
Loc: Up, Your, Ass
Re: Theory that was inspired by B+ [Re: Thor]
    #569373 - 03/04/02 07:31 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, smells like a duck, shits like a duck and tastes like a duck, its a duck dumbass...lolz

Hybrid my ass...lolz

Laterz, Ass


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InvisibleMr. G
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Registered: 04/23/99
Posts: 46
Loc: Treasure Coast
Re: Theory that was inspired by B+ [Re: AssHumper10K]
    #594912 - 03/31/02 08:31 PM (22 years, 20 days ago)

Your right, I agree. It is a Duck! What kind though? Peking, Mallard, Muschovie. Look at the pictures Workman took of the B+ fruiting that are labeled "Herben's B+". Herben said it was a hybrid I NEVER EVER said such a thing. I gave herben a start in the business just like i did Hawk. What they say and do is up to them not me. I just gave some spores away, perfectly legal. I say and still say it is a mutant. Look at the pictures! Ever see a Cubensis with a disappearing annual ring and not a DISTINCT one? Ever see a Cubensis that would fruit and grow entirely on wood? Ever see a Cubensis strain of mycelium that grows like the real B+? You don't even know what a B+ is and if you have the strain and think it distinctly looks like a Cubensis, then i am not the one with any problems but you need your vision and your language checked. Thanks for your input. You are right it is a Psilocybe, but what kind. Look at the spores of the real B+ strain under a microscope, then you know. Until then you have no way of knowing, unless you are better then Stamets, Peele, and all the world famous mycologists. There are freaks that occur in almost every fruiting. if you found a freak alone, would you automatically assume it was a cubensis? If so i don't want to shAre any mushroom dinners with you..Mr.G


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"Mr.G with a rose, in and out of the garden goes, country gharden in the wind and the rain whereever he goes the people all complain!"
"The Grateful Dead" Thanks boys, I miss you Jerry!
Did it hurt that much?

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