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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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King and King
#5563807 - 04/27/06 05:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060427/us_nm/rights_gays_massachusetts_dc
Clear evidence of the subtle indoctrination of youth occurring in our school systems!
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: King and King [Re: Veritas]
#5563828 - 04/27/06 05:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Government schools. Gotta love 'em.
A substantial percentage of high school graduates can't puzzle out a credit card statement or figure out the true gas mileage of their vehicles, but seven year olds get introduced to the gay lifestyle before they are taught about the birds and the bees.
Phred
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: King and King [Re: Phred]
#5563860 - 04/27/06 05:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Don't "regular" fairy tales indoctrinate them into the heterosexual lifestyle? Why aren't gay parents allowed to sue schools for reading the children "Cinderella," or "Snow White," since these books promote a different lifestyle from the one their kids see at home?
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RandalFlagg
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Re: King and King [Re: Veritas]
#5563957 - 04/27/06 06:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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That story should not have been read to seven year olds in a public school. Period.
Note that I'm not a homophobe. If you want to be gay...I don't give a shit. But, it is irresponsible and innapropriate to introduce topics that are very controversial to such young children. They are too young to even fathom what is going on with stuff like this. However, with older children in high school I see no problem with homosexuality being discussed in "Current Affairs" type classes.
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: King and King [Re: Veritas]
#5563962 - 04/27/06 06:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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"It was read during a lesson on different types of weddings."
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Perhaps part of the reason that it remains controversial for any two people to fall in love & want to be together is because we are unwilling to discuss it openly with young children?
I'm not talking about showing them graphic photos of gay (or hetero) sex acts, but about the basic idea that love is love...whatever faces and sex organs it wears. If it is OK to read fairy tales which describe hetero love affairs in romantic detail, then it should be OK to read stories about "King and King."
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: King and King [Re: Veritas]
#5564003 - 04/27/06 06:29 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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there's no reason to be teaching kids about any kind of marriange, gay or straight, in public schools.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: King and King [Re: Veritas]
#5564011 - 04/27/06 06:32 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: If it is OK to read fairy tales which describe hetero love affairs in romantic detail, then it should be OK to read stories about "King and King."
Not around my kids (if I ever have any). I have a feeling that most parents would feel the same way.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
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So you would object to a teacher reading standard hetero fairy tales, such as "Sleeping Beauty," "Cinderella," "Snow White," etc...?
Or are you saying that is OK, and not indoctrination, but that children's stories featuring a non-hetero relationship are unacceptable?
For the sake of the next generation of kids, I sincerely hope that most parents do not feel as you do.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: King and King [Re: wilshire]
#5564324 - 04/27/06 07:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: there's no reason to be teaching kids about any kind of marriange, gay or straight, in public schools.
There is a reason, though not a noble one, and that is because public schools are one of the primary agents of socialization. (After TV, of course, considering that kids spend more time in front of the boob tube than they do in a school desk.)
My point is, if we allow our children to be taught all about hetero marriage, isn't it promoting discrimination to forbid stories about gay relationships? Isn't it time to get past this 1950's-style bullshit?
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The_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth


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Re: King and King [Re: Veritas]
#5564505 - 04/27/06 08:45 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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It just doesnt belong in school,I just honestly cant see a reasonable argument for it, most children have male and female parents and its a social norm. Its not a matter of prejudice its a matter of inconvenience. Should muslims in schools be able to recite prayers or pray to mecca during class? Should Hindu students be able to do the things they do.
The point im trying to make is its not about descrimination its about Convenience.
I dont see how political correctness being taught in school has any merit for children in elementary school. Its bad enough that our government schools teach revisionist history why make it worse with political correctness.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: King and King [Re: Veritas]
#5565978 - 04/28/06 03:58 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: So you would object to a teacher reading standard hetero fairy tales, such as "Sleeping Beauty," "Cinderella," "Snow White," etc...?
I don't think students should be learning fairy tales in school. They should be learning things of substance. But, would I have a problem with them hearing a hetero-ish fairy tale? No. Heterosexuality is the norm. Homosexuality isn't.
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Veritas said: Or are you saying that is OK, and not indoctrination, but that children's stories featuring a non-hetero relationship are unacceptable?
Exposing children to such controversial stuff is not appropriate. If I have kids I am not going to expose them to pro-homo stuff when they are young and I also am not going to expose them to religion when they are young. Young minds cannot fathom these intricate and complicated subjects. I say wait until they are older.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: King and King [Re: Veritas]
#5565984 - 04/28/06 04:00 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: My point is, if we allow our children to be taught all about hetero marriage, isn't it promoting discrimination to forbid stories about gay relationships? Isn't it time to get past this 1950's-style bullshit?
I'll say it one more time; touchy subjects like this should be left to the parents to teach. Stuff like this has no place in public schools.
The subject of homosexuality and the legal matters associated with it are hot topics in the political mainstream right now. It is disgusting to attempt to indoctrinate children or bring them into the mix. Let adults argue about this stuff and let kids keep their innocense.
Edited by RandalFlagg (04/28/06 04:03 AM)
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


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Re: King and King [Re: Veritas]
#5566365 - 04/28/06 09:22 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well at least Massachusetts has made same sex marraige legal (for now). So to teach the kids that there at least has a tie in.
But 7 year olds? Whose idea was that, and fire them.
I give the gays and lesbians credit for fighting and mostly winning their political battle and for forcing people to show "political correctness". The problem is they want it all in terms of marriage and the benefits that brings. Do they deserve that?
I guess if the illegals can have under the table jobs AND welfare AND day care centers paid for with my tax dollars and not have to pay any Federal or state taxes then it should be ok for gay people who are at least citizens and pay taxes to get married and use their "partners" (husband? wife?) health care benefits from work and survivor benefits etc. What the heck.
Teach the children about two men living together and getting married? What the heck. Why not bring in a couple of recently married gays to the second grade class so they can talk about what their marriage is like and how much they love each other? 
I personally am so glad that I went to elementary school in a more innocent time, being taught nice innocent subjects. No guns, no knives, but if someone pissed you off it was more than OK to beat the crap out of them on school grounds and nothing was done!
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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OK, if "touchy" subjects should be left to parents, then the schools have no business including DARE, sex ed., planned parenting (the electronic baby dolls which kids have to carry around for an assignment), political science, evolution, history...
I guess that leaves just the three R's, hmmm? 
Let's take just ONE of these "touchy" subjects: drug use.
Using illegal drugs is not the "norm," either. The public schools in the U.S. are forcing kids to attend DARE training which provides one-sided and inaccurate information about drug effects. They are allowed to demonize ALL illegal drugs, lie about the research into their effects, and to tell children to turn in their parents and friends and neighbors if they are using drugs.
My son was forced into a mandatory DARE class in 4th grade (required to progress to 5th grade), and he came home with pamphlets and a head full of misinformation and propaganda. No one asked me if it was OK for him to take this class, and they made it a requirement (not an elective), so that kids could not advance without that class credit.
Shall I sue?
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: King and King [Re: Veritas]
#5567969 - 04/28/06 06:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: OK, if "touchy" subjects should be left to parents, then the schools have no business including DARE, sex ed., planned parenting (the electronic baby dolls which kids have to carry around for an assignment), political science, evolution, history...
In my opinion DARE should not be in public schools. Sex Ed. should be voluntary. Planned parenthood should be voluntary. Political science, evolution, and history are subjects for much older, knowledgeable, and mature students.
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Veritas said: I guess that leaves just the three R's, hmmm? 
Why can you not simply recognize that I and many other people WOULD NOT want our children being exposed to stuff like "King and King"? If you want to read this stuff to your kids in your home...fine. I don't care. Just don't do it on my dime and with my kids.
A public classroom full of seven year olds is no place to push political ideas and agendas. Would I be pissed if this teacher brought a Bible into class? Yes. Would I be pissed if this teacher brought an Ayn Rand book into class? Yes. Would I be pissed if this teacher brought a Noam Chomsky book into class? Yes.
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Veritas said: My son was forced into a mandatory DARE class in 4th grade (required to progress to 5th grade), and he came home with pamphlets and a head full of misinformation and propaganda. No one asked me if it was OK for him to take this class, and they made it a requirement (not an elective), so that kids could not advance without that class credit.
That was bullshit. I would have pulled my kid out of that class.
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Veritas said: Shall I sue?
I personally might consider it.
Edited by RandalFlagg (04/28/06 07:06 PM)
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
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Quote:
Political science, evolution, and history are subjects for much older, knowledgeable, and mature students.
*buzzer* Sorry, try again. My son was reading about slavery, "settlement" of America, evolution, politics, etc...in grade school. They teach these subjects at a much lower reading level, and with less complexity than they would in middle school/high school/college, but they still introduce these topics.
Many Christian parents have objected to their children being taught about evolution in our public schools, and pushed for creationism to be added to the science curriculum. Should they have their way? Should teachers have to get their permission before mentioning that humans evolved from primates, since this is a touchy subject with Creationists?
Fact is, homosexuality exists everywhere in nature. Humans want to deny it and call it immoral, or just pretend that it doesn't happen. This is bullshit, IMO. If our young children are going to read stories about slavery, white "settlers" killing the natives who were occupying our country, trumped up hetero fairy tales which spoil them for actual relationships, and watch cable TV which depicts every type of horror imaginable, then your "defense of innocence" argument is pretty worthless.
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A public classroom full of seven year olds is no place to push political ideas and agendas.
And yet teachers are allowed to push the "normative" ideas and agendas without any dispute from "normal" parents. (Or opinionated non-parents like you.)
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


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Re: King and King [Re: Veritas]
#5568415 - 04/28/06 08:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Other than rithmatic sience and math oh yea thats rithmatic its all a buncha propaganda anyway. I mean think about any history book. Someone's jaded opinion about what happened when and why. Accurate accounts? No way. The tell the same story around the classroom as instructed that turns out to be something completely different in the span of 5 minutes and 20 students should tell you about the nonsense that is a history book.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: King and King [Re: Veritas]
#5568682 - 04/28/06 09:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
Political science, evolution, and history are subjects for much older, knowledgeable, and mature students.
*buzzer* Sorry, try again. My son was reading about slavery, "settlement" of America, evolution, politics, etc...in grade school.
Has he been exposed to black and white simplifications of these topics? I guarantee you that he doesn't have the acumen to understand the intricate complexities of such topics.
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Veritas said: Many Christian parents have objected to their children being taught about evolution in our public schools, and pushed for creationism to be added to the science curriculum. Should they have their way?
No. Just like liberals who have bleeding hearts should not have their way.
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Veritas said: Should teachers have to get their permission before mentioning that humans evolved from primates, since this is a touchy subject with Creationists?
They shouldn't be discussing such things with 7 year olds. 
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Veritas said: Fact is, homosexuality exists everywhere in nature. Humans want to deny it and call it immoral, or just pretend that it doesn't happen. This is bullshit, IMO.
I don't have anything against homos. 
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Veritas said: and watch cable TV which depicts every type of horror imaginable, then your "defense of innocence" argument is pretty worthless.
I will cancel my cable the second I have kids.
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Veritas said: And yet teachers are allowed to push the "normative" ideas and agendas without any dispute from "normal" parents. (Or opinionated non-parents like you.)
I'll admit it's a double standard. I see no problem with normal stuff leaking into my child's education but I do see a problem with "abnormal" politically charged stuff leaking in. It's a double standard and I don't fucking care. That's how it is. And most parents will agree with me. 
If you want your kids to be educated in the ways of brainwashed Leftism.....go ahead. Maybe you should homeschool your kids? I have considered doing the same if I ever have any little rugrats.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


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I'll admit it's a double standard. I see no problem with normal stuff leaking into my child's education but I do see a problem with "abnormal" politically charged stuff leaking in. It's a double standard and I don't fucking care. That's how it is. And most parents will agree with me.
I really hope you don't have kids Randall. Do you really want to be like "most parents". Sigh.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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RandalFlagg
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Re: King and King [Re: Icelander]
#5572202 - 04/29/06 10:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I really hope you don't have kids Randall. Do you really want to be like "most parents". Sigh.
Am I not "progressive" enough for you? I don't care if I am like most parents or not. I don't want my kids exposed to politically correct garbage. 
If you want to fill your kid's head with this crap and turn them into a little robotic liberal then go ahead. But don't do it to my kids and don't do it on my dime. Elementary school is not the place for fairy tales, examinations of sexual roles, stories about heterosexuality, stories about homosexuality, politically charged topics, etc.. Teach my kid to read, write, and do math but don't attempt to indoctrinate his head with pet beliefs and theories.
Edited by RandalFlagg (04/29/06 10:48 PM)
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Icelander
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I'm afraid you are, then, totally blind to the indoctrination that we all got in school. Fairs fair dude, and if you don't consider that our schools turn out robots by the score then you are one.
And yes, IMO,( and only since you asked) it wouldn't hurt you to open up your mind and let go just a wee little bit. It's not like homosexual activity is unnatural and not found in many mammals. I find it so odd that people care about such, IMO, unimportant stuff. It seems so trivial to me. I think it's most likely fear based and homophobic. No ones going to make anyone become homosexual or damage them by just exposing them to the realities that exist and have always been part of the human experience.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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RandalFlagg
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Re: King and King [Re: Icelander]
#5573372 - 04/30/06 07:19 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I'm afraid you are, then, totally blind to the indoctrination that we all got in school.
So we should fight this perceived indoctrination with indoctrination of a different stripe? I say hell no.
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Icelander said: Fairs fair dude, and if you don't consider that our schools turn out robots by the score then you are one.
I used to buy that idea but now I don't. School didn't make me a robot. I have my own brain and I use it. I slept in class and smoked weed all through high school so I definately wasn't "broken into submission" and "made into a robot".
I find it absolutely preposterous that in order to stop schools from turning out "robots" that we should expose very young children to topics that they cannot possibly understand and that they are not ready for.
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Icelander said: And yes, IMO,( and only since you asked) it wouldn't hurt you to open up your mind and let go just a wee little bit. It's not like homosexual activity is unnatural and not found in many mammals.
I find it so odd that people care about such, IMO, unimportant stuff. It seems so trivial to me. I think it's most likely fear based and homophobic.
I have already stated quite clearly that I do not have a problem with homosexuality. I have known gay people. I even knew somebody who has gotten a sex change. Does this stuff bother me? No. If two dudes are in love, do I care? No. If two women want to live together and dyke it out, do I care? No. If two gay people want to get married, do I care? No.
Seriously, if someone wants to be gay then I really don't care.
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Icelander said: No ones going to make anyone become homosexual or damage them by just exposing them to the realities that exist and have always been part of the human experience.
It's not the homosexual part that bothers me...it's the politically charged part. The abnormality of homosexuality makes it politically charged.
I despise ideology and belief systems. I absolutely do not want my children being exposed to them. I am not going to expose my children to religion and I will definately not expose them to the ideology of Leftism. Hell, I won't even expose them to my own personal opinions until they are older. Children are too young to understand and wade through such controversial and complex stuff. It is irresponsible and unseemly to try to fill their impressionable heads with this stuff. Let them have their innocense. When they get older they can tackle political, religious, and ideological topics.
Edited by RandalFlagg (04/30/06 07:22 AM)
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Icelander
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So we should fight this perceived indoctrination with indoctrination of a different stripe? I say hell no.
Indoctrination? It's just a story about life and people and how they choose to live it.
I used to buy that idea but now I don't. School didn't make me a robot. I have my own brain and I use it. I slept in class and smoked weed all through high school so I definitely wasn't "broken into submission" and "made into a robot".
I find it absolutely preposterous that in order to stop schools from turning out "robots" that we should expose very young children to topics that they cannot possibly understand and that they are not ready for.
A lot of indoctrination takes place long before you start smoking pot. The whole culture including parents, schools, church, etc. is one long indoctrination.
I happen to live with a 5 year old and a 13 year old and you don't know what your talking about. Even the 5 year old can understand that subject matter to some extent. The 13 year old is on to more difficult problems than whether some people are gay and some aren't.
The abnormality of homosexuality makes it politically charged.
I need to repeat that there is nothing abnormal about homosexuality except to those who are homophobic. It's perfectly natural for a percentage of the human population.
Hell, I won't even expose them to my own personal opinions until they are older.
You have no idea what you're talking about. You obviously have not lived with children for any length of time as a guardian or parent. You cannot help but expose your children to everything you are if you interact with them at all. Children are way more intelligent then you give them credit for. They will know exactly how you feel and believe.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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RandalFlagg
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Re: King and King [Re: Icelander]
#5574685 - 04/30/06 05:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: A lot of indoctrination takes place long before you start smoking pot. The whole culture including parents, schools, church, etc. is one long indoctrination.
I was raised a Christian. I didn't end up being a Christian. I was raised in a conservative area. I didn't end up being conservative.
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Icelander said: I happen to live with a 5 year old and a 13 year old and you don't know what your talking about. Even the 5 year old can understand that subject matter to some extent. The 13 year old is on to more difficult problems than whether some people are gay and some aren't.
The 13 year old sounds definately old enough to tackle such subjects. The 5 year old though...? I doubt it. And, these subjects are ones that individual parents should explain to their children. Schools have no business teaching stuff like this.
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Icelander said: I need to repeat that there is nothing abnormal about homosexuality except to those who are homophobic. It's perfectly natural for a percentage of the human population.
Given that it is practised by a very small minority of human beings makes it not normal, i.e. abnormal.
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Icelander said: Children are way more intelligent then you give them credit for. They will know exactly how you feel and believe.
When it becomes apparent that they are ready to tackle such subjects then I will be more than happy to converse with them about it. Would I force these subjects upon them however? No. Would I demand that these subjects be taught in school and that other people's children be exposed to it (when maybe they weren't ready for it or their parents wouldn't approve)? Hell no.
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Icelander said: Indoctrination? It's just a story about life and people and how they choose to live it.
And this story is one that deals with a subject that seven year olds have no business tackling.
It is obvious that you and I disagree on this basic premise, so let me ask you this: Will you defy my will and the will of MANY other parents to teach this stuff to our kids? What if I demanded to teach stuff to your kids that you didn't want? Would I have the right to do that? Should my children be forced to be exposed to this stuff just because you (and what I surmise to be a very small minority of parents) want it?
Edited by RandalFlagg (04/30/06 05:02 PM)
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Icelander
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I didn't end up being conservative
No offense, but you seem quite conservative to me.
Given that it is practised by a very small minority of human beings makes it not normal, i.e. abnormal.
You need to check the Kinsey Report. Something like 10-15%. That's a pretty solid chunk of the population.
And this story is one that deals with a subject that seven year olds have no business tackling.
Thats your opinion and the opinion of someone who has never raised a child. But you're entitled to it. Maybe you should consider home schooling. 
You can do what you want. But I was forced to learn all kinds of things I don't agree with and the children who live with me are taught all kinds of things I don't agree with. So the choice is let them learn some things you don't agree with or home school. And why should my kids be exposed to shit just because the majority wants it. Are you saying just because they're a majority they're right? That has almost never been true IMO.
But I'm radical, that's why I post on a forum that discusses Magick Mushrooms, it's not normal, or in the majority but what you gonna do? And if you don't talk to your kids about this stuff then they believe everything the DARE people say. The normal majority.
But you get to have your views and I don't want to change them. I'm just here for the debate.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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RandalFlagg
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Re: King and King [Re: Icelander]
#5575885 - 04/30/06 11:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Icelander said: No offense, but you seem quite conservative to me.
Well, let's see:
1. I hate religious nutcases (Christian, Islamic, etc..) 2. I hate it when religious nutcases try to push their will upon the general populace. 3. I don't like Bush at all. 4. I support drug legalization. 5. I have no problem with gay people and I find homophobia idiotic.
I'm so socially conservative aren't I? 
Admittedly, when it comes to governmental fiscal matters I am conservative. But when it comes to social matters I despise both liberal and conservative viewpoints.
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Icelander said: And why should my kids be exposed to shit just because the majority wants it. Are you saying just because they're a majority they're right?
NO! You are not listening to me. Seven year old children should not be exposed to shit like this at all. If some teacher brought in a religious pamphlet that detailed how heterosexuality was the only acceptable method for a loving relationship I would be just as pissed.
Just because the majority might be wrong doesn't automatically mean that the minority is right.
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Icelander said: And if you don't talk to your kids about this stuff then they believe everything the DARE people say.
I will make the decision when to talk to my children about drugs, sex, homosexuality, religion, etc.. The public school system and the people working in it have no business filling my prospective kid's (or anybody elses kid's) head with stuff like this. That is what infuriates me about this; a teacher touched upon a subject that should be left to parents.
Edited by RandalFlagg (04/30/06 11:51 PM)
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Icelander
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Maybe you seem so conservative to me because I'm so radical. And I do know that you're liberal when it comes to talking openly about shitting yourself. I really don't know you well and am judging from my limited interaction with you. Like I said, no offense.
OK, your imaginary 7 year old is not ready for it. But mine is. I get it. Like I said, home schooling is the way to go.
Like you said we most likely have differening views on most everything including child rearing and that makes the world go round. I really don't care what you do with your kids (if you have them). Like I said, I'm just here for the debate.
I would never put my own children into the public school system and if I had children of my own (my sperm) I wouldn't raise them in Amerika.
In my opinion only one tenth of one percent are qualified to raise healthy children. So don't ever put me in charge of who gets to have kids. Peace out.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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