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InvisibleVeritas
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Shame
    #5562419 - 04/27/06 11:08 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

*this was off-topic in dblaney's "Ego" thread, sorry Daniel.  :blush: *


Is a sense of right and wrong, and consciousness of when we have done wrong, an innate part of our human "wiring"?

Developmental psychologists view moral development as a learned behavior, rather than a hard-wired aspect of human cognition.

Quote:

From his observations, Piaget concluded that children begin in a "heteronomous" stage of moral reasoning, characterized by a strict adherence to rules and duties, and obedience to authority.




Quote:

Kohlberg identified six stages of moral reasoning grouped into three major levels.
...

Stage 1 heteronomous orientation focuses on avoiding breaking rules that are backed by punishment, obedience for its own sake and avoiding the physical consequences of an action to persons and property.

Stage 2 there is the early emergence of moral reciprocity. The Stage 2 orientation focuses on the instrumental, pragmatic value of an action. Reciprocity is of the form, "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours." The Golden Rule becomes, "If someone hits you, you hit them back." At Stage 2 one follows the rules only when it is to someone's immediate interests. What is right is what's fair in the sense of an equal exchange, a deal, an agreement.

Stage 3 ...aware of shared feelings, agreements, and expectations which take primacy over individual interests. Persons at Stage 3 define what is right in terms of what is expected by people close to one's self, and in terms of the stereotypic roles that define being good - e.g., a good brother, mother, teacher. Being good means keeping mutual relationships, such as trust, loyalty, respect, and gratitude.

Stage 4 marks the shift from defining what is right in terms of local norms and role expectations to defining right in terms of the laws and norms established by the larger social system.

Stage 5 has received substantial empirical support. Stage 6 remains as a theoretical endpoint which rationally follows from the preceding 5 stages. In essence this last level of moral judgment entails reasoning rooted in the ethical fairness principles from which moral laws would be devised. Laws are evaluated in terms of their coherence with basic principles of fairness rather than upheld simply on the basis of their place within an existing social order.




http://tigger.uic.edu/~lnucci/MoralEd/overview.html

Without the moral education required to trigger emotions such as shame or regret, humans would probably exist in an amoral state.

We can see examples of this in cultural differences--what would trigger intense shame in a devout Muslim woman (being forced to wear shorts in public, for example), would be a neutral event to a woman raised in the U.S. (She might worry about showing off her cellulite, though. :tongue:)


Edited by Veritas (04/27/06 11:23 AM)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Shame [Re: Veritas]
    #5562472 - 04/27/06 11:25 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I would say a sense of morality, and shame in particular are learned responses. I think that's why I've noticed that very, very young children do not have the inhibitions that, say, a teenager has.

I remember my mother showing people pictures of me running around naked as a toddler. I try to keep that sort of behavior to a minimum these days. :wink:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Shame [Re: Redstorm]
    #5562476 - 04/27/06 11:26 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I still love running around naked, but my almost-teenage son has asked me not to. :sad:

Oh, well, there's still "clothing-optional" night at our local hotsprings!


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Shame [Re: Veritas]
    #5562488 - 04/27/06 11:30 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I look forward to the sumer months when I can walk out of my house and swim in the lake (clothing optional, females mandatory :grin:).


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Shame [Re: Veritas]
    #5562592 - 04/27/06 12:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

:grin: Not a problem, it's an interesting discussion!

There was a news article within the past month or so talking about a study conducted showing almost altruistic tendencies in toddlers or infants. My memory of it is weak, so I'll try to dig up the article.

I do agree that morality is learned. However, if one were to develop in an environment which did not have any authority figures, a so called "wild child" (though it is debatable whether or not this is possible), I imagine the child would simply develop with self-interest governing their moral values. I think morality is something which invariably develops in all people, in some form or manifestation.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Shame [Re: dblaney]
    #5562606 - 04/27/06 12:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, I suppose that makes sense. Even if a child is "raised by wolves" or something along those lines, the child would still practice some sort of morality if he/she hopes to co-exist with his/her brethren. So, in that way, morality can exist as a form of self-interest, even without the subject knowing it. Interesting.....


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Shame [Re: Redstorm]
    #5562903 - 04/27/06 01:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Dblaney is closest in my opinion. In our society EVERYONE is "taught" some morality by their parents. In reality I feel that we try to make kids understand it before they feel it. In the end the Child teaches himeslf the emotion of Shame by doing something wrong and realizing it. There is a part of the brain that lights up for shame if it is there then God put it there. Not a parent. The parent puts a name to an emotion. God makes hte emotion.

Also many times a culture decideds something is wrong that is not nesecarrily what God had in mind when he gave us the emotion of shame. Being undressed that sort of thing, was not given by God it was given by society. God gave us the troubling kind of shame that hangs around like doing a wrong to another Man, Killing, stealing what isnt yours. These are in my opinion why shame is one of our emotions, not to tell us to remember our p's and q's. Shame is felt when one infringes on anothers natural rights in other words. Everythign thing else we feel shame for is man made.

Blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
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"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Shame [Re: dblaney]
    #5562932 - 04/27/06 01:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, the key word there is "develops".  If it is not there at birth, then it cannot be called innate.  One might make a case for the potential being there at birth, but then one would need to explore all the potentials which humans may have--from Mother Theresa to Charles Manson--in terms of moral behavior.

I think there are quite a few cases of "feral" children on record, so it seems that it is possible for children to grow up without authority figures.  (I'm not sure exactly what you were referring to there. :confused:)

Do you think that self-interest can be the basis for your moral code?  How would that work in terms of developing a sense of "right" and "wrong," if there was no one to scold/shame/guilt us about our behaviors?


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Shame [Re: Veritas]
    #5563015 - 04/27/06 02:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Hmm... I think, a sense of 'right' and 'wrong' is naturally inherent in us all, but each primarily on its individual level.
Shame is simply reflectingly recognizing, what we have done 'wrong' to our own definitions and feelings ?
If our moral definitions are not ours, then there is a problem of course and we can forget about this 'shame', but getting in risk to be stonerd by the ashamed ones.
Sooooo, it is more about provoking the shame in others, what we should be aware of, if we wish to respectfully communicate with them. We don't have to understand it, but primarily draw a line there in between, for respects cause :laugh:
But of course, I like provoking too, so a dosed crossing of the line is recommended if good arguments will back up ones stance, and bring the concepts of individual and group moral together :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Shame [Re: Veritas]
    #5563019 - 04/27/06 02:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

What about inclusive fitness and reciprocal altruism? These appear to be hardwired traits... although it may be a stretch to consider them a form of morality.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Inclusive Fitness [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5563076 - 04/27/06 02:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Inclusive Fitness:

Human behavior is generally much more complicated than other organisms making it difficult to define human behavior in general organism terms. However, evidence for human altruistic behavior leading to increased inclusive fitness has been observed.

While there exists clear evidence towards increased inclusive fitness through altruistic behaviors on behalf of parents and children, much sacrificial behavior by humans is generally done in the hope of reciprocation at some point in the future.

Therefore, increasing inclusive fitness in humans is not necessarily dependent upon relatedness. Rather, it is commonly based on reciprocal altruism.




Well, this would seem to be an early stage of moral development, if you consider it to be conscious reciprocal altruism. However, from a strictly Darwinist POV, these behaviors are selected traits, and therefore could not be considered moral (i.e. enacted with a sense of right/wrong, good/evil.)


Edited by Veritas (04/27/06 03:42 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Inclusive Fitness [Re: Veritas]
    #5563497 - 04/27/06 04:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Shame is a sociological phenomenon. It just a matter of conditioning. It has nothing to do with right and wrong, which are sociological and a matter of conditioning.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Inclusive Fitness [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5563540 - 04/27/06 04:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

:lol:  Hue, you crack me up!


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Inclusive Fitness [Re: Veritas]
    #5563545 - 04/27/06 04:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I was being serious...I need a job as a comedian in that case. I'll make a bundle.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Inclusive Fitness [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5563562 - 04/27/06 04:32 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Let us not mistake one variety of social conditioning for another. :wink:

I so appreciate the way you cut right to the chase.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Inclusive Fitness [Re: Veritas]
    #5563566 - 04/27/06 04:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I understand. I usually try getting to the point when I am feeling lazy. If I am not feeling lazy I could go on in quite an insufferable way. When I am feeling lazy I usually make more sense.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Inclusive Fitness [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5563582 - 04/27/06 04:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, bullshitting requires more energy.  :lol:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Inclusive Fitness [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5563584 - 04/27/06 04:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

True for me also. Lazy is the warriors way. :rofl2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Shame [Re: Veritas]
    #5563600 - 04/27/06 04:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

One might make a case for the potential being there at birth, but then one would need to explore all the potentials which humans may have--from Mother Theresa to Charles Manson--in terms of moral behavior.

Indeed, I think this is so. One thing that genetics has shown us is that humans have the same basic genetic blueprint (nature), and depending on how one is raised (nurture), different genes are expressed. Since morality seems to be of a slightly more abstract nature than say emotions (you don't hear of any "goodness" or "evilness" neurotransmitters :tongue: ), it's hard to say what neurological systems are responsible for it, if any. It seems likely to me that centers in the brain responsible for various behaviors, perhaps the cortex, would play a significant role. AFAIK, this is approaching one of the boundaries of modern neuropsychology: consciousness and the unconscious.

I think there are quite a few cases of "feral" children on record, so it seems that it is possible for children to grow up without authority figures.  (I'm not sure exactly what you were referring to there. :confused:)

Oh yes, undoubtedly it is possible, but I was talking about ramifications in moral development. Specifically, "Stage 1 heteronomous orientation focuses on avoiding breaking rules that are backed by punishment, obedience for its own sake and avoiding the physical consequences of an action to persons and property." If there are no authority figures to punish or lay down rules, then moral development is clearly going to be signficantly impacted.

Do you think that self-interest can be the basis for your moral code?

Theoretically, yes I think it could. But that's coming from a being who has mostly developed in terms of morality, so I'm sure I'm biased.  If you based your moral code strictly on self-interest, then anything which first and foremost helped with your physical survival would be good, and anything which hindered or simply didn't help could be considered bad. Going from there, one could continue using Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs to qualify various things as good or bad. And then branching out further one could call anything that fulfilled any desire "good" and anything that they were averse to "bad".

How would that work in terms of developing a sense of "right" and "wrong," if there was no one to scold/shame/guilt us about our behaviors?

Here I think you could merely replace the words "good" and "bad" in the above response with "right" and "wrong". However, this is where theory runs into a snag, because no one lives in a vacuum. Even the feral children lived in a very dynamic and living environment, and there, as everywhere else, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. So I suppose that "good" or "right" would be anything that they derived pleasure from and that didn't cause a negative, or excessively negative repercussion.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Inclusive Fitness [Re: Icelander]
    #5563617 - 04/27/06 04:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
True for me also. Lazy is the warriors way. :rofl2:






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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Shame [Re: dblaney]
    #5563632 - 04/27/06 04:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

This morality sounds suspiciously like Hedonism. :wink:


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Shame [Re: Veritas]
    #5563673 - 04/27/06 04:49 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Which one? The self-interest one or the feral child one?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Shame [Re: dblaney]
    #5563709 - 04/27/06 04:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Self-interest:
one could call anything that fulfilled any desire "good" and anything that they were averse to "bad".

Feral child:
good" or "right" would be anything that they derived pleasure from and that didn't cause a negative, or excessively negative repercussion.




http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...rue#Post4300784

Same same. :shrug:


Edited by Veritas (04/27/06 04:59 PM)


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Shame [Re: Veritas]
    #5563755 - 04/27/06 05:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Indeed, although in both cases I think it would be more of a secondary hedonism, as the survival of the organism would come before pursuit of pleasure, and ensuring survival isn't always pleasurable, though sometimes it is.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Shame [Re: dblaney]
    #5563762 - 04/27/06 05:09 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

If the greatest good is experiencing pleasure, wouldn't continuing our ability to experience (i.e. surviving), be central to hedonism?


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Shame [Re: Veritas]
    #5564019 - 04/27/06 06:35 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah that would make sense.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Offlinejohnstanton
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Re: Shame [Re: dblaney]
    #5565049 - 04/27/06 10:59 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

it is to be remembered that the genetic code--is engrained so as fear is part of our way--this from he need to survive...in adverse circumstance--over 1ooo's of years---when all seeming obsticles are removed (reasons to fear)it still exists--so as leaving he mind open to place this un-located energy of fear...so thus comes religion and such to so clae save us from our own predisposition--our genetic code (to say)..never will happen--consciousness is needed to move through this moal/amoral saga...just as consciouness allowed us fear--so alow us--???? the ability to adapt to a stimuli...this is health..inability--dis'ease.


--------------------
homoeopathic practitiner..

"seek only the truth ...as an unbiased observor"


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