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inski
Cortinariologist


Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 5,720
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ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!!
#5562060 - 04/27/06 09:10 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Edited by inski (09/14/11 11:05 PM)
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LouiseLouise
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: inski]
#5562150 - 04/27/06 09:34 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Interesting indeed.
-------------------- "That's why you get in close to them, and then take the picture!! Don't be a pussy!" ~CC
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naja
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: inski]
#5562604 - 04/27/06 12:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I have absolutely no experience in I.d. except subs. But the first thing I was thinking when I saw the pics, but before I read u post was, baeocystis! If it's not, it sure looks active to me.I've only seen 1 pic b4, but could it not be makarorae maybe?
Edited by naja (04/27/06 01:02 PM)
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Dr_Mcgillicuddy
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: naja]
#5563249 - 04/27/06 03:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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those are pretty cool looking
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zee_werp
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: Dr_Mcgillicuddy]
#5564296 - 04/27/06 07:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Wow, could these be the 'missing link' between regular psilocybes and the weraroa pouch fungus? Great find dude. Substrate and other details??
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s_ninny
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: zee_werp]
#5564494 - 04/27/06 08:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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looks gnarly it was blueing when you found it?
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asci
HONGO

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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: zee_werp]
#5564518 - 04/27/06 08:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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nice find! looks to me you have psilocybe eucalypta. notice the grayish blue drop at the end of the pleurocystidia. thats a common microscopic feature of eucalypta. it also distinguishes this species from other australian and new zealand psilocybe. as i recall the spores should measure 9.9-12x6.6-7.1x5.5-6.6um and pleurocystidia is 17-30x5.5-7.7. i hear that eucalypta is fairly uncommon?
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eris
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: inski]
#5564797 - 04/27/06 10:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Very interesting find. Can't really help you with species - perhaps someone familiar with NZ mushrooms will be of more help. Never been there myself.
Very cool.
-------------------- Immortal / Temporarily Retired The OG Thread Killer My mushroom hunting gallery
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zee_werp
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: eris]
#5565323 - 04/27/06 11:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I am very familiar with NZ psilocybes and other mushrooms and I would have to say that this shroom is just as startling a find as the bluing weraroa's. Never seen a psilocybe quite like that before. So crumpled in at the base of the cap.
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inski
Cortinariologist


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Posts: 5,720
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: zee_werp]
#5565740 - 04/28/06 02:19 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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zee_werp, cheers  I was thinking the exact same thing about the "missing link" yesterday, hmm. We've found these once before a couple years ago under Leptospermum in a council revegitation. This time they were in a similar setting but the woodchip was alot newer. I don't think they're P.baeocystis, too many differences in spore size! Hopefully someone has some info on P.baeocystis that could help? Will send other 'details' on sunday  inski.
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inski
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: asci]
#5565998 - 04/28/06 04:16 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hey asci thanks  Pretty sure those are cheilocystidia as they were on the gill edge not surface. they could be P.eucalypta, the measurements you supplied seem very close, thanks. bluemeanie what do you think? Do they look like P.eucalypta?
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Stymee
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: inski]
#5566022 - 04/28/06 04:52 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Fascinating finds.
I'll be interested to see what Toxicman and some of the other moderators have to say about those.
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asci
HONGO

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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: inski]
#5566347 - 04/28/06 09:11 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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inski, your best bet is to send a dried sample to dr. gaston guzman. he has the resources to give a accurate id.
Edited by asci (04/28/06 09:14 AM)
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shroominDole
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: asci]
#5568365 - 04/28/06 08:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Once again incredible find and micropics.....would expect nothing less.......what shots showing cortina progression and larval tunnels.....now thats some heavy bug action(protein) goin on there (accounts for the bluing in the field) and that bite you took out of the side of that one......yah blame it on the bugs.....
First thing verbatum in my mind when I saw it was same thing....."THE MISSING LINK"......outline and stipe in relationship to pileus look exact......kinda looks like a shroom possibly in arrested development maybe from disease or something.....interesting collasping heavy marginal corrugation.....would love to see one in pileal section super sonic close up......definately save some proper samples dried......could it be that AUKLANDIA is the direct decendant to WERAROA....... this one might be as good as that bizzaro wigged out LEPIOTA back a little bit recently.....AMATOXIN came up with a good link on that one but havent been able to find anything further (yet)......thats another I hoped you saved for some proper authorities that might be very interested..........
Guzman used small differences in spore size and cystidial size and shape to distinguish between Psilocybe austrailiana and Eucalypta..... the apical blue drop on cheilocystidia (misprinted as pleurocystidia in publication) on Eucalypta was not used as criteria for seperating from Australiana as the apical cheilodrop is not a CONSTANT.....can be frequent or completely absent in Austrailiana, Eucalypta, and also Subaeruginosa in Guzmans dsecripts.....although interesting that blue drop was only mentioned for Eucalypta but the blue was not constant either as many Eucalypta can posess a hyaline drop also as can the other spp. mentioned.........and although Guzmans smallest spores weren't below 10um for Austrailiana (EDIT: and Subaeruginosa)..... his Eucalypta minimum averages only went as low as you mentioned as 9.9um but other than that all above 10um like Austrailiana in his original publications....but in his descriptions of Eucalypta for New Zealand he lowered his average spore size minimum to 9.6um (and smallest occurring at 8.8um)......interesting the smaller potential spore size for Eucalypta and sometimes blue apical cheilodrop.....Johnston & Buchanan listed no average minimum spore sizes less than 10.5um for several collections of species examined which fit the Guzman Eucalypta criteria........though they do list as minimum averages as low as 9.5um for Subaeruginosa while the key states "MOST" spores more than 10um for Subaeruginosa.....Aucklandia having a maximum average spore length of 9.5um.....also the isosome analysis by Chang & Mills 92' showing conspecificity to Subaeruginosa declaring no Eucalypta or Austrailiana.....of course there have been subsequent publications by Guzman and others defending Section Cyannescens in New Zealand.....
Hear Guzman might have some new surprizes for Zealanders in his new revision......
-------------------- Worlds Largest 'Liberty Cap' (Cali Libs Confirmed !) ' Comments On Hallucinogenic Agarics And The Hallucinations Of Those Who Study Them ' Alexander H. Smith Mycologia vol.69 1977
Edited by shroominDole (04/30/06 07:59 PM)
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Zen Peddler


Registered: 06/18/01
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: shroominDole]
#5568391 - 04/28/06 08:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Guzman incorrectly delineated Ps.australiana and Ps.eucalypta based on minor microscopic differences - based on his reasoning we would have to delineate Pan. cyanescens into about six different entities. Infact some of the type specimens that Watling placed in the herbarium were actually just random finds that he IDd by simply taking them from where they expected to find either eucalypta or australiana. As Chang and Mills demonstrated microscopically their type specimens werent even consistent with their description. The microscopic features of Ps.subaeruginosa range from those of australiana (hyaline lageniform cystidia) to mucronate and beak-shaped cystidia of eucalypta. The cystidia shape can be quite diverse, although the bowling-pin shape is the most common. James and Kata did isozyme protein analysis on specimens that I found and confirmed were identical to guzmans descriptions of australiana and eucalypta as well as minor compatibility studies - the conclusion was that they were phenotypes of the same species. The point used to delineate Ps.subaeruginosa from these two entities was pigmented cystidia - to date there has never ever been another collection of any subaeruginosa specimens without hyaline cystidia. Obviously mistakes were made.
Anyway - the spores size seems a little small, but I have seen similar cystidia on subaeruginosa variants.
I would like to see more cystidia photos but im leaning towards it being a suaberuginosa variant.
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Zen Peddler


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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: shroominDole]
#5568412 - 04/28/06 08:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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'of course there have been subsequent publications by Guzman and others defending Section Cyannescens in New Zealand.....'
The only publication was one by Guzman and Watling which demonstrated no new developments and saught to discredit Chang and Mills by stating that they didnt use correctly identified specimens - which is pretty hard when their type specimens are incorrect in the first place! Stamets also reiterated their comments but I know that he has warmed to the idea of conspecificity - as Pluteus was actually in contact with him and he was also conducting isozyme and compatibility studies of the whole cyanescens family (as well as dNA). Buchanan and Johnson remains the best study on NZ Psilocybe in my opinion. But there are four seperate studies that demonstrate conspecificity and only one that suggests delineation.
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inski
Cortinariologist


Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 5,720
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: Zen Peddler]
#5573452 - 04/30/06 08:30 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Edited by inski (09/14/11 11:06 PM)
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Feelers
Anti-Myth-Rhythm-Rock-Shocker


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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: inski]
#5574854 - 04/30/06 06:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hey wow man - great job. Fantastic pics as always.  It looks like a fairly fluid progression. Very cool.

Convergent evolution?
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CptnGarden
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: Feelers]
#5574950 - 04/30/06 06:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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last year a few NZ's found some psychoactive pouch fungi and similar things that look quite like that.
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Feelers
Anti-Myth-Rhythm-Rock-Shocker


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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: CptnGarden]
#5575320 - 04/30/06 08:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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It definately sounds like the pouch fungi are active - but at the moment its all second hand, and anecdotal. If you know of someone who has tried these perhaps you could point them here and give an account? Would be interesting
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Zen Peddler


Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: inski]
#5580254 - 05/02/06 03:04 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I cant comment on the pouch fungi but i can say that those cystidia are pretty normal subaeruginosa cystidia - they range from mucronate ventricose to lageniform or bowling pin shape. Those are more like eucalypta than australiana but the differences are slight and they are synonymous with subaeruginosa.
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OpiumCats
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: Zen Peddler]
#8489982 - 06/05/08 08:23 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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hey ive also come across a fairley large patch of mushrooms that match the ones that inski has come across , now i was wondering if they are actually magic and what species they are? i ve been unable to decipher the mycologist lingo to really understand whats going on with these species?
are they safe to trip from?
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shortyshroomer
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: inski]
#10618669 - 07/04/09 12:31 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hi there, yea these are magic mushrooms, me and my friends ate the exact same ones 2 years ago in school, we found them in the woodchip gardens in the shade. dosage: like 3 medium size ones crazy trip saw my english teacher with horns and i was freaking out in class. Btw i am 19(18+)
-------------------- Why drink and drive when you can smoke and fly.
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cactu
culture and magic



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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: shortyshroomer]
#10620016 - 07/04/09 10:02 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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to OpiumCats post some pictures
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  cuando una rafaga del pensamiento nos pasa al lado se puede sentir que valio la pena haber vivido, y cuando ese pensamiento se convierte en sueño no paramos de soñar hasta realizarlo
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jacksirius
Spatial analyst

Registered: 06/08/09
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Loc: northern nz
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: Zen Peddler]
#11286364 - 10/20/09 06:33 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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thought id post up on here for you guys to check out.



theres more in my gallery, ive also got more amateur images from earlier in the season, any question let me know.
Edited by jacksirius (10/27/09 06:20 AM)
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mycot
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: jacksirius]
#11297138 - 10/22/09 01:00 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
jacksirius said: theres more in my gallery, ive also got more amateur images from earlier in the season, any comments for discussion or question let me know.
So far in this thread there have been several different shroom species depicted. Just so I can get some bearings a first question might be, what the hell are these? Great pics by the way.
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist


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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: mycot]
#11299292 - 10/22/09 12:39 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Most of the mushooms in this thread are an unnamed species of Psilocybe. Inski made a thread about them with the title rhizomorphs and now everyone calls them that for lack of a better name.
There is also some Weraroa novaezelandiae.
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mycot
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
#11309872 - 10/24/09 02:21 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'd come to the same conclusions as you state in your post Alan. I was just asking about the latest entry/pics which appear to be different to anything earlier in the thread.
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jacksirius
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Loc: northern nz
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: mycot]
#11310367 - 10/24/09 06:36 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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hey mycot, ill try to clear up any confusion, sorry for my lack of mycology lingo:) the specimens i collected in the wild were all this species p. rhizomorph, it is only now that i have them growing artificially that they are starting to look different... i created 5 terriums at zero cost, i required, 2 plastic containers, two plastic bottles, a polystyrene chilly bin, some scissors, a plastic bag, tape and some spores.
i collected some mycelium from 2 of the locations where this species was fruiting and placed this in my terrium, i then transplanted some of the best specimens from the wild into these environments, most of these transplants died but i really just wanted to transfer the stem butts. the first flush was more of the typical shape, and there were only about 6 mushrooms that made it to maturity but then i have had the last 2 flushes in 2 isolated containers with these mushrooms....?? they were grown from mushrooms that originally looked very similar to inskis pics, all i can think is that they have mutated over the season and now look almost nothing like the original ones from the wild, or the isolate that inski grew. i do have various specimens that look like inskis, they are in smaller containers, and are only growing from either one of the mycelium types not the mix, which makes me wonder. they are now growing alot bigger than the ones in the wild and are actually opening up as opposed to the original theory that thought this species had more closed gills, i think that was perhaps only true for those in the wild, as the last flush had immense amount of spore ejection, and this is what caused the darkish brown colour.
i thought perhaps the 2 different types of mycelium have created a more robust phenotype and that my selection of stem butts has helped this quick mutation. based on my observations in the field and my last 3 flushes in the terrium this mushroom has just changed significantly in colour, shape and size.
jacksirius
Edited by jacksirius (10/27/09 06:31 AM)
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mycot
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: jacksirius]
#11321177 - 10/25/09 08:59 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thanks for helping to clear up the confusion Jacksirius. They're amazing looking shrooms and excellent work on the grow. I hope we can get some resolution on whats really going on here. Good luck with everything.
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jacksirius
Spatial analyst

Registered: 06/08/09
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Loc: northern nz
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: mycot]
#11321747 - 10/25/09 10:49 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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yea its quite a significant variation from the original specimens. all the mushrooms in my pics are from this season, and are all p.rhizomorph,
 this is my first grow from the transplant, see that lil bulbious thing, that lasted for about 2.5 months before those pins occured.
  they turned into these. this was my smaller grow kit and was only containing mycelium from one of the locations.
my larger kit first produced these specimens
 


after this i thought it was pretty much over for the season, i took my kit outside and left it in a cool dark place, didnt think much for afew weeks then thought id best check it... it was starting to pin heaps... id already been surprised when the gills upturned in the first flush but didnt really expect much different this time, and so yeah they grew alittle bigger like this
 
  id already been surprised with the colour variation from those in the wild but didnt think it was too much of a biggie cause all the pins look like these, and once i saw them ejecting spores im pretty convinced its caused by this, but still the whole mushroom looks different doesnt it? anyhow that stage is about where i think most rhizomorphs get to in the wild, the bark generally keeps them tightly packed and the bug seem to love them. so yeah they grew into these
 you can see these ones in the low quality image also


  those were the ones that look the most like the rhizomorph but if you look at some of the other angles at the other end of the box it hardly looks like inskis specimen, and it definately doesnt look like what i was picking in the wild

 heres one of my more typical rhizomorphs
 hope you guys like the pics its definitely an interesting variation. id prefer the wild ones with the pleated edge and albino look, i need to do more isolations any suggestions on cutting chunks of mycelium and grafting them would be appreciated.
Edited by jacksirius (10/25/09 11:03 PM)
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karode13
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: jacksirius]
#11322042 - 10/25/09 11:47 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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I am pretty sure that they are all the same species and the different environmental factors while growing have brought about variations in the fruits.
This is really interesting and I am kicking myself for leaving NZ as their is so much work to be done on our lovely Weraroa...oops I mean Psilocybes.
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: karode13]
#11322315 - 10/26/09 12:56 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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