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InvisibleinskiM
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ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!!
    #5562060 - 04/27/06 09:10 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

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Edited by inski (09/14/11 11:05 PM)


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InvisibleLouiseLouise
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: inski]
    #5562150 - 04/27/06 09:34 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Interesting indeed.


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Offlinenaja
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: inski]
    #5562604 - 04/27/06 12:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I have absolutely no experience in I.d. except subs. But the first thing I was thinking when I saw the pics, but before I read u post was, baeocystis! If it's not, it sure looks active to me.I've only seen 1 pic b4, but could it not be makarorae maybe?


Edited by naja (04/27/06 01:02 PM)


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OfflineDr_Mcgillicuddy
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: naja]
    #5563249 - 04/27/06 03:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

those are pretty cool looking


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Invisiblezee_werp
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: Dr_Mcgillicuddy]
    #5564296 - 04/27/06 07:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Wow, could these be the 'missing link' between regular psilocybes and the weraroa pouch fungus? Great find dude. Substrate and other details??


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Offlines_ninny
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: zee_werp]
    #5564494 - 04/27/06 08:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

looks gnarly
it was blueing when you found it?


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Offlineasci
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: zee_werp]
    #5564518 - 04/27/06 08:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

nice find! looks to me you have psilocybe eucalypta. notice the grayish blue drop at the end of the pleurocystidia. thats a common microscopic feature of eucalypta. it also distinguishes this species from other australian and new zealand psilocybe. as i recall the spores should measure 9.9-12x6.6-7.1x5.5-6.6um and pleurocystidia is 17-30x5.5-7.7. i hear that eucalypta is fairly uncommon?


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Offlineeris
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: inski]
    #5564797 - 04/27/06 10:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Very interesting find. Can't really help you with species - perhaps someone familiar with NZ mushrooms will be of more help. Never been there myself.

Very cool.

:biggrin:


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Invisiblezee_werp
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: eris]
    #5565323 - 04/27/06 11:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I am very familiar with NZ psilocybes and other mushrooms and I would have to say that this shroom is just as startling a find as the bluing weraroa's. Never seen a psilocybe quite like that before. So crumpled in at the base of the cap.


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InvisibleinskiM
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: zee_werp]
    #5565740 - 04/28/06 02:19 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

zee_werp, cheers :cool:
I was thinking the exact same thing about the "missing link" yesterday, hmm.
We've found these once before a couple years ago under Leptospermum in a council revegitation. This time they were in a similar setting but the woodchip was alot newer.
I don't think they're P.baeocystis, too many differences in spore size!
Hopefully someone has some info on P.baeocystis that could help?
Will send other 'details' on sunday :wink:
inski.


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InvisibleinskiM
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: asci]
    #5565998 - 04/28/06 04:16 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Hey asci thanks :smile:
Pretty sure those are cheilocystidia as they were on the gill edge not surface.
they could be P.eucalypta, the measurements you supplied seem very close, thanks.
bluemeanie what do you think? Do they look like P.eucalypta?


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InvisibleStymee
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: inski]
    #5566022 - 04/28/06 04:52 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Fascinating finds.

I'll be interested to see what Toxicman and some of the other moderators have to say about those.


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Offlineasci
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: inski]
    #5566347 - 04/28/06 09:11 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

inski,
your best bet is to send a dried sample to dr. gaston guzman. he has the resources to give a accurate id.


Edited by asci (04/28/06 09:14 AM)


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InvisibleshroominDole
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: asci]
    #5568365 - 04/28/06 08:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Once again incredible find and micropics.....would expect nothing less.......what shots showing cortina progression and larval tunnels.....now thats some heavy bug action(protein) goin on there (accounts for the bluing in the field) and that bite you took out of the side of that one......yah blame it on the bugs.....

First thing verbatum in my mind when I saw it was same thing....."THE MISSING LINK"......outline and stipe in relationship to pileus look exact......kinda looks like a shroom possibly in arrested development maybe from disease or something.....interesting collasping heavy marginal corrugation.....would love to see one in pileal section super sonic close up......definately save some proper samples dried......could it be that AUKLANDIA is the direct decendant to WERAROA....... this one might be as good as that bizzaro wigged out LEPIOTA back a little bit recently.....AMATOXIN came up with a good link on that one but havent been able to find anything further (yet)......thats another I hoped you saved for some proper authorities that might be very interested..........

Guzman used small differences in spore size and cystidial size and shape to distinguish between Psilocybe austrailiana and Eucalypta.....
the apical blue drop on cheilocystidia (misprinted as pleurocystidia in publication)
on Eucalypta was not used as criteria for seperating from Australiana as the apical cheilodrop is not a CONSTANT.....can be frequent or completely absent in Austrailiana, Eucalypta, and also Subaeruginosa in Guzmans dsecripts.....although interesting that blue drop was only mentioned for Eucalypta but the blue was not constant either as many Eucalypta can posess a hyaline drop also as can the other spp. mentioned.........and although Guzmans smallest spores weren't below 10um for Austrailiana (EDIT: and Subaeruginosa)..... his Eucalypta minimum averages only went as low as you mentioned as 9.9um but other than that all above 10um like Austrailiana in his original publications....but in his descriptions of Eucalypta for New Zealand he lowered his average spore size minimum to 9.6um (and smallest occurring at 8.8um)......interesting the smaller potential spore size for Eucalypta and sometimes blue apical cheilodrop.....Johnston & Buchanan listed no average minimum spore sizes less than 10.5um for several collections of species examined which fit the Guzman Eucalypta criteria........though they do list as minimum averages as low as 9.5um for Subaeruginosa while the key states "MOST" spores more than 10um for Subaeruginosa.....Aucklandia having a maximum average spore length of 9.5um.....also the isosome analysis by Chang & Mills 92' showing conspecificity to Subaeruginosa declaring no Eucalypta or Austrailiana.....of course there have been subsequent publications by Guzman and others defending Section Cyannescens in New Zealand.....

Hear Guzman might have some new surprizes for Zealanders in his new revision......


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Edited by shroominDole (04/30/06 07:59 PM)


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: shroominDole]
    #5568391 - 04/28/06 08:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Guzman incorrectly delineated Ps.australiana and Ps.eucalypta based on minor microscopic differences - based on his reasoning we would have to delineate Pan. cyanescens into about six different entities.
Infact some of the type specimens that Watling placed in the herbarium were actually just random finds that he IDd by simply taking them from where they expected to find either eucalypta or australiana. As Chang and Mills demonstrated microscopically their type specimens werent even consistent with their description.
The microscopic features of Ps.subaeruginosa range from those of australiana (hyaline lageniform cystidia) to mucronate and beak-shaped cystidia of eucalypta. The cystidia shape can be quite diverse, although the bowling-pin shape is the most common.
James and Kata did isozyme protein analysis on specimens that I found and confirmed were identical to guzmans descriptions of australiana and eucalypta as well as minor compatibility studies - the conclusion was that they were phenotypes of the same species.
The point used to delineate Ps.subaeruginosa from these two entities was pigmented cystidia - to date there has never ever been another collection of any subaeruginosa specimens without hyaline cystidia.
Obviously mistakes were made.

Anyway - the spores size seems a little small, but I have seen similar cystidia on subaeruginosa variants.

I would like to see more cystidia photos but im leaning towards it being a suaberuginosa variant.


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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: shroominDole]
    #5568412 - 04/28/06 08:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

'of course there have been subsequent publications by Guzman and others defending Section Cyannescens in New Zealand.....'

The only publication was one by Guzman and Watling which demonstrated no new developments and saught to discredit Chang and Mills by stating that they didnt use correctly identified specimens - which is pretty hard when their type specimens are incorrect in the first place!
Stamets also reiterated their comments but I know that he has warmed to the idea of conspecificity - as Pluteus was actually in contact with him and he was also conducting isozyme and compatibility studies of the whole cyanescens family (as well as dNA).
Buchanan and Johnson remains the best study on NZ Psilocybe in my opinion. But there are four seperate studies that demonstrate conspecificity and only one that suggests delineation.


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InvisibleinskiM
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #5573452 - 04/30/06 08:30 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

.


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Edited by inski (09/14/11 11:06 PM)


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OfflineFeelers
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: inski]
    #5574854 - 04/30/06 06:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Hey wow man - great job. Fantastic pics as always. :thumbup:
It looks like a fairly fluid progression. Very cool.



Convergent evolution? :wink:


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OfflineCptnGarden
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: Feelers]
    #5574950 - 04/30/06 06:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

last year a few NZ's found some psychoactive pouch fungi and similar things that look quite like that.


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OfflineFeelers
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Re: ID for intensely bluing Psilocybe from NZ!!! [Re: CptnGarden]
    #5575320 - 04/30/06 08:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

It definately sounds like the pouch fungi are active - but at the moment its all second hand, and anecdotal. If you know of someone who has tried these perhaps you could point them here and give an account? Would be interesting


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