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OfflineDoctorJ
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I think I finally realized why Africa is so poor
    #5561531 - 04/27/06 02:18 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Africa's poverty has always been a mystery to me. Although they are one of the richest continents in raw resources (minerals, diamonds, oil, nuclear fuel), they are one of the poorest continents in monetary wealth.

Naturally, my first impression was that African poverty was caused by some sort of white/European oppression. And I'm still not convinced that white oppression is not a factor in this equation. But there is more to it than that.

I have come to realize that Africa is poor because the politics there are so unstable. It discourages foreign investment. What happens to wealthy Europeans and Americans who invest in Africa? They get jacked by guerrilla thugs and crooked governments.

Africa truly is the dark continent. Here you have roving bands of guerrilla armies, corrupt regimes, and a bunch of savages running around with sixth century mentalities while having access to 20th century weapons. Add to that the AIDS epidemic and other widespread health problems, and the general lack of proper public education, and what you end up with is a very unstable, volatile region. If I were an investor looking to mine minerals, I wouldn't touch that place with a ten foot pole.

And so, sadly, I must conclude that Africans are poor because they simply cannot behave themselves properly. And this is most probably the case with almost all underdeveloped 3rd world countries. White oppression has less to do with it than the deficiencies of those nations' citizens and governments. Someone please prove me wrong, as this is a very depressing revelation for me.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: I think I finally realized why Africa is so poor [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5561609 - 04/27/06 03:05 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I have come to realize that Africa is poor because the politics there are so unstable. It discourages foreign investment

I'm not sure the politics are that unstable. Brutal dictators often hold power for decades. And brutal dictators are absolutely ideal for foreign investment - they oppress the population while the foreign investment robs the country blind.


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OfflineFestivus
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Re: I think I finally realized why Africa is so poor [Re: Alex213]
    #5561627 - 04/27/06 03:21 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

There's also a significant problem of "brain drain" that occurs.


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InvisibleNoetical
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Registered: 11/28/04
Posts: 9,230
Re: I think I finally realized why Africa is so poor [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5561690 - 04/27/06 04:01 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Property laws are scant, who wants to sink mad bling when your investment can so easily be taken?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: I think I finally realized why Africa is so poor [Re: Noetical]
    #5561709 - 04/27/06 04:21 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

That's probably a good thing for foreign investment. The less law the more land they can steal. Look at what the oil companies did to the Ogoni peoples land in Nigeria. Any problems just pay a few backhanders and have any protestors hanged.


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InvisibleNoetical
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Registered: 11/28/04
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Re: I think I finally realized why Africa is so poor [Re: Alex213]
    #5561720 - 04/27/06 04:28 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Why would that be a good thing for anyone?

Ownership isn't limited to the hands of multinationals.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: I think I finally realized why Africa is so poor [Re: Noetical]
    #5561725 - 04/27/06 04:31 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The oil companies make a fortune.


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InvisibleNoetical
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Re: I think I finally realized why Africa is so poor [Re: Alex213]
    #5561728 - 04/27/06 04:33 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Is there presently a large multinational presence in Africa?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: I think I finally realized why Africa is so poor [Re: Noetical]
    #5561734 - 04/27/06 04:36 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Enormous. Check out Shells devastation of the Niger delta.


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InvisibleNoetical
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Re: I think I finally realized why Africa is so poor [Re: Alex213]
    #5561742 - 04/27/06 04:44 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Nigeria's economy is one of the fastest growing in the world let alone Africa.

Personally, I think this thread is going sideways.

Africa is poor because there is no investment, thats the gist I got. Seems like it is going in the oil companies are bad route.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: I think I finally realized why Africa is so poor [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5562005 - 04/27/06 08:49 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Africa is poor for many reasons but probably the best reason Africa continues to be poor was caused from WWII,WWI, and Colonial powers occupying Africa. When the Colonial powers pulled of the African Areas it created a huge power vacuum which resulted in a series of wars all over africa (and other commonwealths) Which to this day there is still a power vacuum from.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: I think I finally realized why Africa is so poor [Re: Alex213]
    #5562131 - 04/27/06 09:30 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
The oil companies make a fortune.




If the oil industry is looting Africa as you have implied, if they are taking Africa's petrochemical reasources without giving Africans fair market value for those resources, then how come we haven't seen an influx of cheap African oil in America?

If Refinery A gets their crude from the middle east for $75 a barrel and Refinery B gets their crude from Africa for $50 a barrel, don't you think that Refinery B would undercut Refinery A's gas prices, thereby taking their business?

Unless there is some kind of collusion in the refining industry, your assertion that Africa is being looted doesn't bear close examination.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: I think I finally realized why Africa is so poor [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5562369 - 04/27/06 10:46 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I would say that Africans live in squalor because of the perpetual state of war that they live in. This sort of environment makes it almost impossible for aid to get to their intended targets. Not only that, but because these people are living under the constant fear of death, their prerogative is staying a live, not improving their country.


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: I think I finally realized why Africa is so poor [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5562992 - 04/27/06 02:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
Africa's poverty has always been a mystery to me. Although they are one of the richest continents in raw resources (minerals, diamonds, oil, nuclear fuel), they are one of the poorest continents in monetary wealth.

Naturally, my first impression was that African poverty was caused by some sort of white/European oppression. And I'm still not convinced that white oppression is not a factor in this equation. But there is more to it than that.

I have come to realize that Africa is poor because the politics there are so unstable. It discourages foreign investment. What happens to wealthy Europeans and Americans who invest in Africa? They get jacked by guerrilla thugs and crooked governments.

Africa truly is the dark continent. Here you have roving bands of guerrilla armies, corrupt regimes, and a bunch of savages running around with sixth century mentalities while having access to 20th century weapons. Add to that the AIDS epidemic and other widespread health problems, and the general lack of proper public education, and what you end up with is a very unstable, volatile region. If I were an investor looking to mine minerals, I wouldn't touch that place with a ten foot pole.

And so, sadly, I must conclude that Africans are poor because they simply cannot behave themselves properly. And this is most probably the case with almost all underdeveloped 3rd world countries. White oppression has less to do with it than the deficiencies of those nations' citizens and governments. Someone please prove me wrong, as this is a very depressing revelation for me.




Africa was stable and was made up for kingdoms that were very wealthy. Then came Europe with its guns and ammo. The end.

I forgot who it was but some king went around Africa giving out gold bars which lowered the price of gold in the region. Then Europe came, the end.

You know how Tutus and whatever the other ones are called hate each other? They didn't hate eachother before the dutch came. The dutch basically favored one over the other, created animosity between the two groups and then they started slaughtering eachother and they still do.



--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


Edited by downforpot (04/27/06 02:18 PM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: I think I finally realized why Africa is so poor [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5563022 - 04/27/06 02:22 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I have come to realize that Africa is poor because the politics there are so unstable.



This is partially true, but the instability of politics is partly a legacy of European imperialism. Europeans divided the continent along arbitrary borders, rather than paying attention to tribal borders. So these countries all have a bunch of people who are more loyal to their tribe than to their country fighting for power. Now, obviously we can't blame Europeans entirely for this, as the people could get together and hold peaceful elections if they wanted to, but that's just not how politics works over there, and if the colonial powers had understood the tribal dynamics in these countries, they could have prevented this.

Also, there is a big problem with geographic isolation in Africa. There are many isolated areas in Africa with no roads going through them, and this prevents commerce in these areas. The governments don't have the tax revenue to build the roads that are necessary, and if they raise taxes, they'll chase away the tax payers. It's a catch 22.


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InvisibleJackTackle
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Registered: 09/18/05
Posts: 282
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Re: I think I finally realized why Africa is so poor [Re: downforpot]
    #5563024 - 04/27/06 02:22 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

This goes farther back than the world wars

did you know that the ancient Africans were the only group of people who never developed a method of launching a projectile other than spear throwing?

every other group developed some sort of "bow and arrow" type device
for some reason it didn't happen in africa
because of this fact they have always been behind
the rest of the world then went about all the business that kept them down


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Offlinekotik
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Re: I think I finally realized why Africa is so poor [Re: JackTackle]
    #5563444 - 04/27/06 04:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

hah its a little crazy to ignore the european influence. i mean technically, the entire continent was prime, and would still be flourishing today (minus the civilization / technology). but in terms of habitat, resources, etc... all of that has gone to shit because the rest of the western world has been treating africa like a petty cash box.. i mean how much do you think the native africans get from all the diamond mines (and etc.) in their areas?


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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OfflineTurn
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Re: I think I finally realized why Africa is so poor [Re: kotik]
    #5564565 - 04/27/06 08:59 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Some other reasons: They have no history of democracy or being involved in goverment, some think the World Bank and IMF are designed to keep them in perpetual debt and therefore constantly exporting their materials to try and pay it off, the raw materials arn't worth nearly as much as the finished product, oh! Here is a good one, arms sales and military aid, they don't need guns. So yeah all the reasons listed in this thread, except for the obvious one...


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: I think I finally realized why Africa is so poor [Re: Turn]
    #5564570 - 04/27/06 09:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Blackmarket diamond trading has financed wars in Africa for the last 60 years.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: I think I finally realized why Africa is so poor [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5564790 - 04/27/06 09:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

DoctorJ writes:

Quote:

And so, sadly, I must conclude that Africans are poor because they simply cannot behave themselves properly.




True dat. Check out this essay from someone who emigrated from Africa to the US years back. It's pretty much on the mark.






Let Africa Sink

Kim du Toit
May 26, 2002


When it comes to any analysis of the problems facing Africa, Western society, and particularly people from the United States, encounter a logical disconnect that makes clear analysis impossible. That disconnect is the way life is regarded in the West (it?s precious, must be protected at all costs etc.), compared to the way life, and death, are regarded in Africa. Let me try to quantify this statement.

In Africa, life is cheap. There are so many ways to die in Africa that death is far more commonplace than in the West. You can die from so many things--snakebite, insect bite, wild animal attack, disease, starvation, food poisoning? the list goes on and on. At one time, crocodiles accounted for more deaths in sub-Saharan Africa than gunfire, for example. Now add the usual human tragedy (murder, assault, warfare and the rest), and you can begin to understand why the life expectancy for an African is low--in fact, horrifyingly low, if you remove White Africans from the statistics (they tend to be more urbanized, and more Western in behavior and outlook). Finally, if you add the horrifying spread of AIDS into the equation, anyone born in sub-Saharan Africa this century will be lucky to reach age forty.

I lived in Africa for over thirty years. Growing up there, I was infused with several African traits--traits which are not common in Western civilization. The almost-casual attitude towards death was one. (Another is a morbid fear of snakes.)

So because of my African background, I am seldom moved at the sight of death, unless it?s accidental, or it affects someone close to me. (Death which strikes at strangers, of course, is mostly ignored.) Of my circle of about eighteen or so friends with whom I grew up, and whom I would consider "close", only about ten survive today--and not one of the survivors is over the age of fifty. Two friends died from stepping on landmines while on Army duty in Namibia. Three died in horrific car accidents (and lest one thinks that this is not confined to Africa, one was caused by a kudu flying through a windshield and impaling the guy through the chest with its hoof--not your everyday traffic accident in, say, Florida). One was bitten by a snake, and died from heart failure. Another also died of heart failure, but he was a hopeless drunkard. Two were shot by muggers. The last went out on his surfboard one day and was never seen again (did I mention that sharks are plentiful off the African coasts and in the major rivers?). My situation is not uncommon in South Africa--and north of the Limpopo River (the border with Zimbabwe), I suspect that others would show worse statistics.

The death toll wasn?t just confined to my friends. When I was still living in Johannesburg, the newspaper carried daily stories of people mauled by lions, or attacked by rival tribesmen, or dying from some unspeakable disease (and this was pre-AIDS Africa too) and in general, succumbing to some of Africa?s many answers to the population explosion. Add to that the normal death toll from rampant crime, illness, poverty, flood, famine, traffic, and the police, and you?ll begin to get the idea.

My favorite African story actually happened after I left the country. An American executive took a job over there, and on his very first day, the newspaper headlines read: "Three Headless Bodies Found".
The next day: "Three Heads Found".
The third day: "Heads Don?t Match Bodies".

You can?t make this stuff up.

As a result of all this, death is treated more casually by Africans than by Westerners. I, and I suspect most Africans, am completely inured to reports of African suffering, for whatever cause. Drought causes crops to fail, thousands face starvation? Yup, that happened many times while I was growing up. Inter-tribal rivalry and warfare causes wholesale slaughter? Yep, been happening there for millennia, long before Whitey got there. Governments becoming rich and corrupt while their populations starved? Not more than nine or ten of those. In my lifetime, the following tragedies have occurred, causing untold millions of deaths: famine in Biafra, genocide in Rwanda, civil war in Angola, floods in South Africa, famine in Somalia, civil war in Sudan, famine in Ethiopia, floods in Mozambique, wholesale slaughter in Uganda, and tribal warfare in every single country. There are others, but you get the point.

Yes, all this was also true in Europe--maybe a thousand years ago. But not any more. And Europe doesn?t teem with crocodiles, ultra-venomous snakes and so on.

The Dutch controlled the floods. All of Europe controls famine--it?s non-existent now. Apart from a couple of examples of massive, state-sponsored slaughter (Nazi Germany, Communist Russia), Europe since 1700 doesn?t even begin to compare to Africa today. Casual slaughter is another thing altogether--rare in Europe, common in Africa.

More to the point, the West has evolved into a society with a stable system of government, which follows the rule of law, and has respect for the rights and life of the individual--none of which is true in Africa.

Among old Africa hands, we have a saying, usually accompanied by a shrug: "Africa wins again." This is usually said after an incident such as:

-- a beloved missionary is butchered by his congregation, for no apparent reason
-- a tribal chief prefers to let his tribe starve to death rather than accepting food from the Red Cross (would mean he wasn?t all-powerful, you see)
-- an entire nation starves to death, while its ruler accumulates wealth in foreign banks
-- a new government comes into power, promising democracy, free elections etc., provided that the freedom doesn?t extend to the other tribe
-- the other tribe comes to power in a bloody coup, then promptly sets about slaughtering the first tribe
-- etc, etc, etc, ad nauseam, ad infinitum.

The prognosis is bleak, because none of this mayhem shows any sign of ending. The conclusions are equally bleak, because, quite frankly, there is no answer to Africa?s problems, no solution that hasn?t been tried before, and failed.

Just go to the CIA World Fact Book, ( http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html ) pick any of the African countries (Kenya, Tanzania, Zambia, Malawi etc.), and compare the statistics to any Western country (eg. Portugal, Italy, Spain, Ireland). The disparities are appalling--and it?s going to get worse, not better. It has certainly got worse since 1960, when most African countries achieved independence. We, and by this I mean the West, have tried many ways to help Africa. All such attempts have failed.

Charity is no answer. Money simply gets appropriated by the first, or second, or third person to touch it (17 countries saw a decline in real per capita GNP between 1970 and 1999, despite receiving well over $100 billion in World Bank assistance).

Food isn?t distributed. This happens either because there is no transportation infrastructure (bad), or the local leader deliberately withholds the supplies to starve people into submission (worse).

Materiel is broken, stolen or sold off for a fraction of its worth. The result of decades of "foreign aid" has resulted in a continental infrastructure which, if one excludes South Africa, couldn?t support Pittsburgh.

Add to this, as I mentioned above, the endless cycle of Nature?s little bag of tricks--persistent drought followed by violent flooding, a plethora of animals, reptiles and insects so dangerous that life is already cheap before Man starts playing his little reindeer games with his fellow Man--and what you are left with is: catastrophe.

The inescapable conclusion is simply one of resignation. This goes against the grain of our humanity--we are accustomed to ridding the world of this or that problem (smallpox, polio, whatever), and accepting failure is anathema to us. But, to give a classic African scenario, a polio vaccine won?t work if the kids are prevented from getting the vaccine by a venal overlord, or a frightened chieftain, or a lack of roads, or by criminals who steal the vaccine and sell it to someone else. If a cure for AIDS was found tomorrow, and offered to every African nation free of charge, the growth of the disease would scarcely be checked, let alone reversed. Basically, you?d have to try to inoculate as many two-year old children as possible, and write off the two older generations.

So that is the only one response, and it?s a brutal one: accept that we are powerless to change Africa, and leave them to sink or swim, by themselves.

It sounds dreadful to say it, but if the entire African continent dissolves into a seething maelstrom of disease, famine and brutality, that?s just too damn bad. We have better things to do--sometimes, you just have to say, "Can?t do anything about it.

The viciousness, the cruelty, the corruption, the duplicity, the savagery, and the incompetence is endemic to the entire continent, and is so much of an anathema to any right-thinking person that the civilized imagination simply stalls when faced with its ubiquity, and with the enormity of trying to fix it. The Western media shouldn?t even bother reporting on it. All that does is arouse our feelings of horror, and the instinctive need to do something, anything--but everything has been tried before, and failed. Everything, of course, except self-reliance.

All we should do is make sure that none of Africa gets transplanted over to the U.S., because the danger to our society is dire if it does. I note that several U.S. churches are attempting to bring groups of African refugees over to the United States, European churches the same for Europe. Mistake. Mark my words, this misplaced charity will turn around and bite us, big time.

Even worse would be to think that the simplicity of Africa holds some kind of answers for Western society: remember Mrs. Clinton?s little book, "It Takes A Village"? Trust me on this: there is not one thing that Africa can give the West which hasn?t been tried before and failed, not one thing that isn?t a step backwards, and not one thing which isn't worse than, or that contradicts, what we have already.

So here?s my (tongue-in-cheek) solution for the African fiasco: a high wall around the whole continent, all the guns and bombs in the world for everyone inside, and at the end, the last one alive should do us all a favor and kill himself.

Inevitably, some Kissingerian realpolitiker is going to argue in favor of intervention, because in the vacuum of Western aid, perhaps the Communist Chinese would step in and increase their influence in the area. There are two reasons why this isn?t going to happen.

Firstly, the PRC doesn?t have that kind of money to throw around; and secondly, the result of any communist assistance will be precisely the same as if it were Western assistance. For the record, Mozambique and Angola are both communist countries--and both are economic disaster areas. The prognosis for both countries is disastrous--and would be the same for any other African country.

The West can?t help Africa. Nor should we. The record speaks for itself.








Phred


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