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Invisibledblaney
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The Ego
    #5554006 - 04/25/06 04:40 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

At the core of a great many spiritual traditions is the concept of the ego.

I have one very important question for discussion and then one or two not so important ones:

Is the ego self-sufficient or does it require 'fuel' of sorts in order to function?

Also:

- How do you define the ego?
- What fuel, if any, supports the ego?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Ego [Re: dblaney]
    #5554024 - 04/25/06 04:57 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

what you are interested in becomes most central
support the interest with energy and it intensifies
the interest becomes self sustaining when enough associations are developed.
when very self sustained, huge distractions are required to divert the interest (life energy).

most are interested in themselves. ergo ego


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: The Ego [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5554072 - 04/25/06 05:53 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

ego runs on thoughts
think of me think of me
im more important, no think of me
some thoughts are more combustible, ie better fuel
probably thoughts relating to the self in some direct fashion


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: The Ego [Re: dblaney]
    #5554179 - 04/25/06 07:26 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Interesting question. I'll only answer the two last questions because I'll answer the first at the same time. Note to everyone that we are only talking about one definition of the word "ego" in this thread.

I define ego simply as the sense of oneself. The human typing this entry feels only its own thoughts and emotions directly. No one else's thoughts or emotions are directly accessible without the use of the senses. Neither can the human typing this reply exert direct mental control over the body parts of another human.

Therefore, there is a feeling of self-containment within the human typing this entry. There is a feeling of distinction from other humans. There is also an emotional connection between this human and itself; i.e. this human wants to preserve the state of consciousness and physical ability that it possesses. The ever-present sense of self that is evoked with the use of the term "I" is what defines the word "ego."

As an answer for your other question, I will give two. I think the question is ambiguous.

1- In my opinion, ego exists as a result of the observations of individuality, and the desire for survival. It is also fueled by these thoughts and emotions.

2- Food


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Namaste


Edited by RedNucleus (04/25/06 07:34 AM)


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OfflineOctavius
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Re: The Ego [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5554294 - 04/25/06 08:48 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

To my knowledge, what I consider the ego is something that is always untouched. It is the center point of thought and when one meditates it is the first place that is reached. So by meditating one can tap into the ego and sort of put a pause on it, where you initially seperate yourself from it and are in a state of transcendence. Once reaching this point you have a clear mind and can go on thinking of things that are much deeper in mind then what one can do when not meditating and reaching the ego.

The ego is fueled by self-concious thoughts, thoughts of power, and thoughts that resemble the two that I have mentioned.


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: The Ego [Re: Octavius]
    #5554515 - 04/25/06 10:37 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Aha. So we don't have the same idea about what "ego" is. Would you describe your idea a little more? I can't quite grasp it.


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Namaste


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The Ego [Re: dblaney]
    #5554662 - 04/25/06 11:38 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Fundamentally, the Ego is not just any one thing, but rather, an 'integrate', if you will. An integrate consisting of our physical organs, which support our primary intellectual properties: Volition, Reason and Consciousness. At any given point in time, the Ego is the sum, i.e., an integrate of One's choices, reasonings, past interactions and organic properties.

The Ego is fueled by the existence of One's own body first and foremost. When One has satisfied One's own basic survival-needs, this sets the stage for higher cognitive developments - which ultimately, still comes back down to the fundamental motive of One's own survival. After attaining wealth in terms of basic-survival needs, the Ego can then build, i.e., fuel off of a variety of many other interactive processes which take place in Reality. The Ego can then attain higher potentials that are supported by One's own body, rational faculty and environment. And from there... so forth.



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: The Ego [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5554687 - 04/25/06 11:49 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

skorp actually has some good points here. the lone wolf who scrounges for every meal has no ego, but teh alpha male of a whole pack DOES. He spends time relaxing when the lone wolf must search for food. It is no surprise that Humanity has huge egos.

That said what fuels the ego has to be simply wasted time.

Skorp went wrong when he says that it all comes back to ones own survival. THe ego is product of behaviors opposite those of ones survival. It goes AGAINST ones own survival. It makes you a target, and it alienates you from teh group. How can that possibly be important for survival?


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: The Ego [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5554711 - 04/25/06 11:58 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I was completely confused by what you wrote. I still don't have a grasp of what you mean by "ego." I suspect I could give examples of my "choices, reasonings, past interactions and organic properties" that you would not consider part of ego.

Anyway I looked ego up and the freudian definition is not consistent with the idea I had in my head. That's what I get for accepting definitions from people on a bulletin board. Were we talking about the Freudian definition or does "ego-loss" refer to a different definition of the word?

http://allpsych.com/psychology101/ego.html i was there


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Namaste


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: The Ego [Re: dblaney]
    #5554846 - 04/25/06 12:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Jung:

Quote:

Although its bases are in themselves relatively unknown and unconscious, the ego is a conscious factor par excellence. It is even acquired, empirically speaking, during the individual's lifetime. It seems to arise in the first place fromt he collision between the somatic factor and the environment, and, once established as a subject, it goes on developing from further collisions with the outer world and the inner.
...
I have suggested calling the total personality which, though present, cannot be fully known, the self. The ego is, by definition, subordinate to the self and is related to it like a part to the whole. Inside the field of consciousness it has, as we say, free will. By this I do not mean anything philosophical, only the well-known psychological fact of "free choice," or rather the subjective feeling of freedom. By, just as our free will clases with necessity in the outside world, so also it finds its limist outside the field of consciousness in the subjective inner world, where it comes into conflict with the facts of the self. And just as circumstances or outside events "ahppen" to us and limit out freedom, so the self acts upon the ego like an objective occurence which free will can do very little to alter. It is, indeed, well known that the ego not only can do nothing against the self, but is sometimes actually assimilated by unconscious components of the personality that are in the process of development and is greatly altered by them.



- Aion: Phenomenology of the Self


Freud:
Quote:

In Freud's theory, the ego mediates between the id, the super-ego and the external world. Its task is thus to find a balance between primitive drives, morals and reality. Although in his early writings Freud equated the ego with the sense of self, he later began to portray it more as a set of psychic functions such as reality-testing, defence, synthesis of information, intellectual functioning, and memory.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego


Buddhism:
Quote:

The Buddhist doctrine of egolessness seems to be a bit confusing to westerners. I think this is because there is some confusion as to what is meant by ego. Ego, in the Buddhist sense, is quite different from the Freudian ego. The Buddhist ego is a collection of mental events classified into five categories, called skandhas, loosely translated as bundles, or heaps.

If we were to borrow a western expression, we could say that "in the beginning" things were going along quite well. At some point, however, there was a loss of confidence in the way things were going. There was a kind of primordial panic which produced confusion about what was happening. Rather than acknowledging this loss of confidence, there was an identification with the panic and confusion. Ego began to form. This is known as the first skandha, the skandha of form.

After the identification with confusion, ego begins to explore how it feels about the formation of this experience. If we like the experience, we try to draw it in. If we dislike it, we try to push it away, or destroy it. If we feel neutral about it, we just ignore it. The way we feel about the experience is called the skandha of form; what we try to do about it is known as the skandha of impulse/perception.

The next stage is to try to identify, or label the experience. If we can put it into a category, we can manipulate it better. Then we would have a whole bag of tricks to use on it. This is the skandha of concept. The final step in the birth of ego, is called the skandha of consciousness. Ego begins to churn thoughts and emotions around and around. This makes ego feel solid and real. The churning around and around is called samsara -- literally, to whirl about. The way ego feels about its situation (skandha of feeling) determines which of the six realms of existence it creates for itself.



http://dharma.ncf.ca/introduction/overview.html


I like these:

Quote:

Ego, in psychology, is that part of the self system that coordinates and integrates all of the personality aspects into one cohesive whole. Ego also mediates between the person and the outside world and is responsible for self-regulation and self-control meaning control over the instincts and impulses. It is capable of delaying rewards and feedback if it is mature. Ego is tuned in to all aspects of self-preservation including defense of the self-image or self-concept. It is conscious, in a limited sense compared to the Higher Self; but, nevertheless, it is awake and in touch with external realities and many of the internal ones. When the identity crisis has been safely navigated, the ego maintains a center of self-sameness and continuity over time. It is that part of us which, in waking life, recognizes ourselves as the same persons we were yesterday and the day before. In that capacity, it is connected to the memory bank.

Unfortunately ego, itself having been generated in association with parental training, is primarily invested in maintaining the false self. The false self, you will remember, is basically the self-image and personality that are constructed out of feedback from whoever is raising the child. It is called the false self because it is not the whole Self. Parts of it are hidden or repressed by ego. It is composed of those aspects of the personality that are "allowed out," so to speak, those parts of ourselves that are judged to be acceptable to others. You could think of ego as being in cahoots with the agents of socialization, so it protects and maintains whatever aspects of the self that are compatible with the norm. Both ego and personality were raised together like siblings in the same family. So they share the same values and outlook on life. The parts of self that are "out of sync" with ego's and personality's shared reality are relegated to the dungeons of the unconscious where they languish in solitary confinement. However, ego is essential to mental health because, by definition, one who does not have an ego or adequate ego strength is psychotic. A person without an ego is awash in chaos, at the mercy of the unconscious in all of its ungroundedness, archetypal and raw energies. Consciousness can be a place of intense terror and disorganization without an ego's mediation. A psychotic person cannot defend him/herself against invasions by others or the environment, so is likely to be incredibly anxious.




Quote:

Ego in Eastern traditions is that part of ourselves that maintains the illusion of separateness and duality. As such, it is the major obstacle to enlightenment because it keeps us distanced from the dynamic Ground or the Ultimate Reality. Its major characteristic in this role is ignorance in the sense of ignoring something. It has forgotten who it is and has become attached to all manner of worldly objects, ideas, attitudes and people. All of these stand between the individual and unity consciousness. We become invested in satisfying our desires and wants and protecting our self-centered projects and agendas. Buddhists see ego as the source of suffering, cultural illness and neurosis.

In Yoga, ego is that part of self that wants its own way, wants to control everything and is unwilling to surrender to a higher power. It is the main obstacle to enlightenment because it rigidly defends the status quo and blocks access to higher levels of consciousness. In fact, it is generally unaware that there are realities beyond its own experience. It tends to be self-important, self-centered and selfish. What it wants is central to its attention and focus. And it wants its own way, wants to control everything and is unwilling to surrender to a higher power. It is the main obstacle to enlightenment because it rigidly defends the status quo and blocks access to higher levels of consciousness. In fact, it is generally unaware that there are realities beyond its own experience. It tends to be self-important, self-centered and selfish. What it wants is central to its attention and focus. And what it wants is what it was taught to want during its formative years. In our society, it is also likely to be materialistic, greedy and power-oriented.

Obviously there is some overlap in these two sets of definitions. But you want to be careful to understand that, in talking about ego death or getting rid of ego, we are not advocating destruction of the ego that maintains sanity in the psychological sense although there may be times when one feels that way. The best way to remember the distinction between legitimate ego and the ego that needs to be destroyed is that legitimate ego's roles are integrative while the dispensable ego is controlling, self-centered, and self-willed.

This being said, we shall proceed first with an outline of the psychological development of ego, then follow with the eastern teachings on ego. After dealing with the theories, we will look at how we can work with the ego toward higher levels of consciousness.




--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: The Ego [Re: dblaney]
    #5555072 - 04/25/06 02:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

alright :smile:


--------------------
Namaste


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: The Ego [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5555495 - 04/25/06 04:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

:tongue:

Lemme rephrase my original question. In some philosophies, the goal that all are to strive for is transcendence of the ego, by means such as Yoga, meditation, etc. etc.

However, upon further reflection, I question whether it is possible to transcend the ego, using the ego, since it is the ego that wants to transcend itself. Thus my question of whether the ego needs psychological fuel of sorts in order to function properly. If it does, then one could simply take away the causes for which the ego is the effect, and thereby transcend it. But if the ego is self-suficient and requires no fuel, then I wonder how transcendence is possible.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The Ego [Re: blaze2]
    #5555743 - 04/25/06 06:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Skorp went wrong when he says that it all comes back to ones own survival. THe ego is product of behaviors opposite those of ones survival. It goes AGAINST ones own survival. It makes you a target, and it alienates you from teh group. How can that possibly be important for survival?

Nature does not supply us with ready-made knowledge, it does not give us truth over falsehood. Man has to expend effort to reason, to think, to act in accordance with his knowledge, conceptions and observations. Therefore, One can either act for or against his own survival. One must figure that out by Oneself. Ultimately, we all have a fundamental inclination to further our existence, but there is no guarantee that what we choose to consider as beneficial to our existence is beneficial to our survival. Every person from the productive businessman to the bank robber, is pursuing their own interests and values. However, the difference between the two mentioned is what they regard as beneficial to their existence; what they choose to value. In the grand scheme of things, one is in fact, suicidal while one is not; one is conscientous, while one is not. One has been philosophically well-equipped in their rational faculty, while one is not. Yet, both are propelled by the fundamental motive for their own survival.




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: The Ego [Re: dblaney]
    #5555854 - 04/25/06 06:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Is the ego self-sufficient or does it require 'fuel' of sorts in order to function?

Like any other organism, it requires energy to function.


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: The Ego [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5555872 - 04/25/06 06:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Indeed, from where and how does it derive this energy, though? And based on this, how would one ideally go about transcending the ego?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: The Ego [Re: dblaney]
    #5556063 - 04/25/06 07:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

:shrug:
I'm probably the worst person to ask about ideally transcending the ego. I've aways seen transcending the ego, in a Western sense, as viewing the self as inherently evil and to correct this situation, 'transcending' ourselves through self-denial.
I've got nearly the opposite view of things.


Edited by MushmanTheManic (04/25/06 07:36 PM)


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InvisibleWIZOLZ
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Re: The Ego [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5557149 - 04/26/06 12:19 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Im not well versed in theories of the Ego, but I can give a general observation from what I've just learned on the matter.

Observe, Most kids today....Mainly the ones with no respect for older people, definately have this unfortunate trait, although, not in the sense of mediating between the rational self and external world, no it seems these young punks have no sense of survival at all...Ecspecially when Im chasing them down the street ready to throw them into the nearest tree.....No, It seems to me that trancendence of Ego isnt such a diffucult thing dblaney. Perhaps you already know the principals which govern your identity, self and thoughts. If trancending in a spiritual sense is what your seeking, then it could be situational, calling on your faculties of spiritual preperation or even self sacrifice in those times. To me, their is power in placing value in oneself, although, without the grace of humility, will most certainly lead to spiritual death.


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---------o----o----o-------o------------------------o--o-o-
----------------------------------------------------------------
Requim for a Dream - Paul Oakenfold
---------------------------------------------------------------
"The mis/abuse of any form of power, is the worst form of ignorance"
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WIZOLZ - Lover with a Killer's Smile


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: The Ego [Re: WIZOLZ]
    #5557400 - 04/26/06 01:57 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

skorp went wrong with that avatar. im gonna have to put u on ignore now skorp old buddy.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The Ego [Re: dblaney]
    #5557564 - 04/26/06 04:42 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

What I think, in short: Our wishes, desires, needs and wants fuel the ego.
So, go back, let them go and change from an active POV, where you hold tight to reality and actively interact with it, to a passive, accepting, experiencing, resonating and 'watching' state.

While meditating, if you sort out everything what obviously comes from yourself (for yourself -> fuel), your mind will transcend the ego.


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: The Ego [Re: fresh313]
    #5558126 - 04/26/06 10:45 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fresh313 said:
skorp went wrong with that avatar. im gonna have to put u on ignore now skorp old buddy.




I think there is a way to make avatars not visible like how you can do it with the signatures, which I did a while back for the same reason.

My daughter comes around a lot when I am reading here and I can't have her mind warped looking at porn at age 9.  I'm going to have to turn of my avatar view feature off or put you on ignore too skorp. :tongue:



:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: The Ego [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5558660 - 04/26/06 01:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Can you prove that nature does not supply us the knowledge of right/wrong? I know you cannot because it does. Everything one says of does evokes emotions, and what is shame then? we dont reason out shame(though you dwell on it and feel it stronger) Shame is in us inherently when we do wrong. explain that away skorp.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Ego [Re: fresh313]
    #5558840 - 04/26/06 02:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fresh313 said:
skorp went wrong with that avatar. im gonna have to put u on ignore now skorp old buddy.




:lol: He lost a bet, check out the link above his signature photo.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Ego [Re: blaze2]
    #5558867 - 04/26/06 02:24 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

blaze2 said:
Can you prove that nature does not supply us the knowledge of right/wrong? I know you cannot because it does. Everything one says of does evokes emotions, and what is shame then? we dont reason out shame(though you dwell on it and feel it stronger) Shame is in us inherently when we do wrong. explain that away skorp.




Well, our legal system is set up to acknowledge that right/wrong are learned concepts. Until we are 18, barring truly heinous crimes, we cannot be tried as adults. The sentencing for minors is usually geared towards re-education, rather than imprisonment, reflecting the idea that they have not learned to know right from wrong.

Children do not inherently feel shame, either. I have spent most of my life caring for children, and they are often very proud of their "wrong" actions until an adult comes along to scold them. They do learn quickly, though, so you might miss this unless you spend a great deal of time around very young children.


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: The Ego [Re: dblaney]
    #5559739 - 04/26/06 06:29 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
At the core of a great many spiritual traditions is the concept of the ego.

I have one very important question for discussion and then one or two not so important ones:

Is the ego self-sufficient or does it require 'fuel' of sorts in order to function?

Also:

- How do you define the ego?
- What fuel, if any, supports the ego?




Not sure if you've read it, but I like this little piece by Osho.

Echoes through eternity. Where is the center?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Ego [Re: dorkus]
    #5560400 - 04/26/06 09:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Hey Dr. I often like what Osho has to say and he is a prime example of what happens when you pretend that you're above and beyond all that ego stuff.

Here's something interesting on the subject from Robert Anton Wilson.

In pre-ethological terms, the emotional-territorial circuit (from Tim Learys eight circuit model of consciousness) is what we usually call the ego. Ego is simply the mammalian recognition of one's status in the pack; it is a "role" as sociologists say, a single brain circuit which mistakes itself for the whole Self, the entire brain-mind apparatus. The "egotist" behaves like "a two year old" in the common saying, because Ego is the imprint of the toddling and toilet-training stage.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: The Ego [Re: Icelander]
    #5560436 - 04/26/06 09:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Hey Icelander. Welcome back. :smile:

Thanks for the response. Did you mean to say that you disagree with what Osho had to say here? I know he didn't live up to his teachings.

Could you link me to the rest of that article you quoted?

I'm reading RAW's Illuminatus novel at the moment, which is good entertainment.


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: The Ego [Re: Veritas]
    #5560496 - 04/26/06 09:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

blaze2 said:
Can you prove that nature does not supply us the knowledge of right/wrong? I know you cannot because it does. Everything one says of does evokes emotions, and what is shame then? we dont reason out shame(though you dwell on it and feel it stronger) Shame is in us inherently when we do wrong. explain that away skorp.




Well, our legal system is set up to acknowledge that right/wrong are learned concepts. Until we are 18, barring truly heinous crimes, we cannot be tried as adults. The sentencing for minors is usually geared towards re-education, rather than imprisonment, reflecting the idea that they have not learned to know right from wrong.

Children do not inherently feel shame, either. I have spent most of my life caring for children, and they are often very proud of their "wrong" actions until an adult comes along to scold them. They do learn quickly, though, so you might miss this unless you spend a great deal of time around very young children.




Do you really think the legal system is true or just in any way shape or form? I suppose you do. For instance I do not believe anyone deserves Jail Not even teh most demented horrible killer. To protect society seperate them sure, but punishment has no place in human hands. It is never weilded rightously, and far from being humane. If they got that much wrong why should I care what they say on ages showing how mature a person is?

"Those who leadeth into captivity shall live in captivity" Revelations.


I said children feel shame, I did not say they feel it for things that parents think they should. Animals feel shame and should have no reason to if it someting one must be taught. its part of being a communal animal. The parents just shed light on a feeling the kid already has by giving it a name. The kid must learn it for himself though, the parent cant "teach" an emotion man. Thats ridiculous. Its part of how we are wired.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Ego [Re: dorkus]
    #5560500 - 04/26/06 09:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I do agree with Osho and so does Leary and RAW. That quote is from Prometheus Rising by RAW.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: The Ego [Re: Icelander]
    #5560510 - 04/26/06 09:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Ah I actually have that book, but it's laying at my parents place a long way from here. :smile: I guess I'll dig it up when I visit for the summer.


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: The Ego [Re: Icelander]
    #5562133 - 04/27/06 09:31 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Holy crap man, welcome back!

I just recently picked up three or four of Osho's books, and so far I think they are very insightful.

Did he really not practice what he preached? I don't know much about the man himself, just what he said.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Ego [Re: blaze2]
    #5562379 - 04/27/06 10:49 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Do you really think the legal system is true or just in any way shape or form? I suppose you do. For instance I do not believe anyone deserves Jail Not even teh most demented horrible killer. To protect society seperate them sure, but punishment has no place in human hands. It is never weilded rightously, and far from being humane. If they got that much wrong why should I care what they say on ages showing how mature a person is?




My reference to the legal system was an example of the majority believing that "morals" are learned, not innate. I can also point to Piaget's research into human psychological development, among many other developmental psychologists. You ask for proof that your belief is incorrect, yet you offer absolutely no support for your claims other than your belief.

Quote:

I said children feel shame, I did not say they feel it for things that parents think they should. Animals feel shame and should have no reason to if it someting one must be taught. its part of being a communal animal. The parents just shed light on a feeling the kid already has by giving it a name. The kid must learn it for himself though, the parent cant "teach" an emotion man. Thats ridiculous. Its part of how we are wired.




Support? (Beyond just "everyone knows it is so.) Animals feel shame? Really? How do you know? Kids innately feel shame? How do you know?

It is not a matter of being "taught" emotions, it is a matter of learning when to trigger emotions. Shame is NOT innate, as it is (to all possible means of external observation) absent in young children.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Ego [Re: dblaney]
    #5562681 - 04/27/06 12:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
Holy crap man, welcome back!

I just recently picked up three or four of Osho's books, and so far I think they are very insightful.

Did he really not practice what he preached? I don't know much about the man himself, just what he said.




Thanks friend.

It appears that Osho melted down in a big way at the end. Power corrupts. Also it points to something I have come to suspect. Enlightment is not a state where one may live. It comes at a time conditions are fertile (almost never) and then you are left to deal with the details of still being a human being. It's not permanent and those who don't see that will take the fall for pretending it is (ego lol) You can see it all around. I think more than you might think have a brief momentous encounter with pure enlightenment, but it doesn't last and you need the humbleness of a warrior I guess to survive your encounter with enlightenment. :grin: I myself wouldn't know from experience. :tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (04/27/06 12:31 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: The Ego [Re: dblaney]
    #5563524 - 04/27/06 04:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The ego is just an idea in your mind...like any other idea. How often do your other ideas eat? I make mine take a bath every Saturday night.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: The Ego [Re: Icelander]
    #5563529 - 04/27/06 04:22 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"Enlightment is not a state where one may live."
Maybe not....but it is a great vacation spot.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Ego [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5563534 - 04/27/06 04:24 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Just like Big Rock Candy Mountain. :tongue2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Ego [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5563546 - 04/27/06 04:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
The ego is just an idea in your mind...like any other idea. How often do your other ideas eat? I make mine take a bath every Saturday night.




Whether they need it or not, hmm?  I guess it depends on how dirty your mind is. :wink:


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: The Ego [Re: Icelander]
    #5563635 - 04/27/06 04:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Enlightment is not a state where one may live. It comes at a time conditions are fertile (almost never) and then you are left to deal with the details of still being a human being. It's not permanent and those who don't see that will take the fall for pretending it is

This is essentially what Hinayana Buddhism asserts. And to me, it seems almost escapist in attitude: "Well now, I don't like all these ups and downs and suffering, so I'm just gonna go find Enlightenment." Mahayana Buddhism, however, asserts that Nirvana and Samsara are one and the same. It teaches nonduality: that we are all Brahman, we are all Enlightened, we just don't realize it because of Maya (the Grand Illusion).


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Ego [Re: Veritas]
    #5563636 - 04/27/06 04:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Hue does not have a dirty mind! (poor guy) I however have one dirty enough for the both of us and so the Universe remains in balance.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Ego [Re: Icelander]
    #5563648 - 04/27/06 04:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Hey, pornography is part of the Tao! Don't lay your moralisms on us, man.


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: The Ego [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5563659 - 04/27/06 04:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
The ego is just an idea in your mind...like any other idea. How often do your other ideas eat? I make mine take a bath every Saturday night.




Hm, well I'm not sure if an idea is the best way to describe the ego. Ideas are fleeting, they arise and disappear. But the ego is a constant feature of the human organism. It changes over time, sure, but it doesn't arise and disappear like ideas (unless of couse you're on a very high dosage of psychedelic medicine :grin: ). Also, we identify with the ego, whereas we recognize that while we HAVE ideas, we aren't the ideas. If we did, it would be exceedingly difficult to survive.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Ego [Re: dblaney]
    #5563701 - 04/27/06 04:54 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The ego is a set of ideas about ourself & how we fit in to our world.  While the ideas within this set may be fleeting, the fact of having ideas about ourself persists.

Additionally, and somewhat relatedly, many people DO identify with their ideas!  (Witness the reactions when their ideas/beliefs are questioned or challenged.)  :grin:  IMO, this does hamper their survival, as they become unable to adapt their ideas to their present circumstances.


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: The Ego [Re: Veritas]
    #5563726 - 04/27/06 05:00 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The ego is a set of ideas about ourself & how we fit in to our world. While the ideas within this set may be fleeting, the fact of having ideas about ourself persists.

Thus in order to transcend the ego, one must simply forget everything they know about themself and how they fit into their world?

Additionally, and somewhat relatedly, many people DO identify with their ideas!

Funny you say this. The very first time I took MDMA (an extraordinarily liberating experience), I realized that I identified myself with my ideas very strongly. However, I don't think the identification is total. That is, I think there is often a strong association between a person's ideas and opinions and their sense of self, but I don't think most actually consider their ideas and opinions to be their true self. (Perhaps representative of their true self?)


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Ego [Re: dblaney]
    #5563749 - 04/27/06 05:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Not necessarily forget our ideas of who we are, but hold them more loosely, and at arms length.  :wink:

Quote:

I think there is often a strong association between a person's ideas and opinions and their sense of self, but I don't think most actually consider their ideas and opinions to be their true self. (Perhaps representative of their true self?)




It always tips me off when someone expresses their beliefs in the form "I am a ______" (Buddhist, Christian, Atheist, etc...), rather than "Well, I believe ________."  Whenever we identify ourselves as being a belief/idea, as opposed to believing in ideas, the line has become blurred.


Edited by Veritas (04/27/06 05:07 PM)


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: The Ego [Re: Veritas]
    #5563760 - 04/27/06 05:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It always tips me off when someone expresses their beliefs in the form "I am a ______" (Buddhist, Christian, Atheist, etc...), rather than "Well, I believe ________." Whenever we identify ourselves as being a belief/idea, as opposed to believing in ideas, the line has become blurred.

Very good point. :thumbup:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Ego [Re: dblaney]
    #5563773 - 04/27/06 05:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Personally, I like to say "Right now my best guess is..."  :grin:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Ego [Re: dblaney]
    #5563785 - 04/27/06 05:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

but I don't think most actually consider their ideas and opinions to be their true self.

I have to disagee and would go so far as to say most people don't even consider themselves, at all, apart from their ideas and opinions. Or if they do it's once a year at 2 a.m.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Ego [Re: Icelander]
    #5563793 - 04/27/06 05:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

When they wake up screaming, in a cold sweat?  :lol:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Ego [Re: Veritas]
    #5563858 - 04/27/06 05:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

:whoa:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: The Ego [Re: Icelander]
    #5564034 - 04/27/06 06:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Aye, I fear you may be right :frown:. Plato's appetitive level.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleVirgilKane
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Re: The Ego [Re: Icelander]
    #5564442 - 04/27/06 08:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Nice sig!
Looks like someones lost some weight, but not their demeanor!

Nice to see Veritas has kept your head (ahem) in the right place....

Welcome back guys! :heart:


--------------------
Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense...

"Religion is a defense against a religious experience"
              Carl G. Jung

 
"So really, ordinary reality is a kind of chemical habit, sanctioned by culture, which says it's okay to use certain drugs, eat certain foods, and have certain sexual behaviors. However, when you transcend all this pre-conditioning by returning to the original wisdom of the animal body, then you discover this immense dimension of opportunity. For some people, it is a frightening risk. To me, that's the psychedelic experience."
Terence McKenna


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: The Ego [Re: dblaney]
    #5564632 - 04/27/06 09:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"Thus in order to transcend the ego, one must simply forget everything they know about themself and how they fit into their world?"

Do you really think that you know anything about yourself? We are all truly strangers to ourselves. Most have no understanding of their motivations or explanation for their veiws. Mostly they just believe what others tell them to believe. Their ideas about who they are are defined by other people without their input...they just accept it. Furthermore, the second you think that you know yourself is the second that you have just imposed limitations on the self. The ego is merely a self image...an idea. This idea can arise and fade. Transcending the ego is just adopting a new paradigm of self. Once you accept that you will never know yourself well you will find that the ego is not as solid or consistant as you thought.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: The Ego [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5564641 - 04/27/06 09:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"Unknow thyself!"


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