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blaze2
The Witness


Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 1,883
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
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Can you prove that nature does not supply us the knowledge of right/wrong? I know you cannot because it does. Everything one says of does evokes emotions, and what is shame then? we dont reason out shame(though you dwell on it and feel it stronger) Shame is in us inherently when we do wrong. explain that away skorp.
-------------------- "Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein "peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Thomas Jefferson "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: The Ego [Re: fresh313]
#5558840 - 04/26/06 02:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
fresh313 said: skorp went wrong with that avatar. im gonna have to put u on ignore now skorp old buddy.
He lost a bet, check out the link above his signature photo.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: The Ego [Re: blaze2]
#5558867 - 04/26/06 02:24 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
blaze2 said: Can you prove that nature does not supply us the knowledge of right/wrong? I know you cannot because it does. Everything one says of does evokes emotions, and what is shame then? we dont reason out shame(though you dwell on it and feel it stronger) Shame is in us inherently when we do wrong. explain that away skorp.
Well, our legal system is set up to acknowledge that right/wrong are learned concepts. Until we are 18, barring truly heinous crimes, we cannot be tried as adults. The sentencing for minors is usually geared towards re-education, rather than imprisonment, reflecting the idea that they have not learned to know right from wrong.
Children do not inherently feel shame, either. I have spent most of my life caring for children, and they are often very proud of their "wrong" actions until an adult comes along to scold them. They do learn quickly, though, so you might miss this unless you spend a great deal of time around very young children.
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dorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
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Re: The Ego [Re: dblaney]
#5559739 - 04/26/06 06:29 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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dblaney said: At the core of a great many spiritual traditions is the concept of the ego.
I have one very important question for discussion and then one or two not so important ones:
Is the ego self-sufficient or does it require 'fuel' of sorts in order to function?
Also:
- How do you define the ego? - What fuel, if any, supports the ego?
Not sure if you've read it, but I like this little piece by Osho.
Echoes through eternity. Where is the center?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The Ego [Re: dorkus]
#5560400 - 04/26/06 09:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hey Dr. I often like what Osho has to say and he is a prime example of what happens when you pretend that you're above and beyond all that ego stuff.
Here's something interesting on the subject from Robert Anton Wilson.
In pre-ethological terms, the emotional-territorial circuit (from Tim Learys eight circuit model of consciousness) is what we usually call the ego. Ego is simply the mammalian recognition of one's status in the pack; it is a "role" as sociologists say, a single brain circuit which mistakes itself for the whole Self, the entire brain-mind apparatus. The "egotist" behaves like "a two year old" in the common saying, because Ego is the imprint of the toddling and toilet-training stage.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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dorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
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Hey Icelander. Welcome back. 
Thanks for the response. Did you mean to say that you disagree with what Osho had to say here? I know he didn't live up to his teachings.
Could you link me to the rest of that article you quoted?
I'm reading RAW's Illuminatus novel at the moment, which is good entertainment.
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blaze2
The Witness


Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 1,883
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
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Re: The Ego [Re: Veritas]
#5560496 - 04/26/06 09:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Veritas said:
Quote:
blaze2 said: Can you prove that nature does not supply us the knowledge of right/wrong? I know you cannot because it does. Everything one says of does evokes emotions, and what is shame then? we dont reason out shame(though you dwell on it and feel it stronger) Shame is in us inherently when we do wrong. explain that away skorp.
Well, our legal system is set up to acknowledge that right/wrong are learned concepts. Until we are 18, barring truly heinous crimes, we cannot be tried as adults. The sentencing for minors is usually geared towards re-education, rather than imprisonment, reflecting the idea that they have not learned to know right from wrong.
Children do not inherently feel shame, either. I have spent most of my life caring for children, and they are often very proud of their "wrong" actions until an adult comes along to scold them. They do learn quickly, though, so you might miss this unless you spend a great deal of time around very young children.
Do you really think the legal system is true or just in any way shape or form? I suppose you do. For instance I do not believe anyone deserves Jail Not even teh most demented horrible killer. To protect society seperate them sure, but punishment has no place in human hands. It is never weilded rightously, and far from being humane. If they got that much wrong why should I care what they say on ages showing how mature a person is?
"Those who leadeth into captivity shall live in captivity" Revelations.
I said children feel shame, I did not say they feel it for things that parents think they should. Animals feel shame and should have no reason to if it someting one must be taught. its part of being a communal animal. The parents just shed light on a feeling the kid already has by giving it a name. The kid must learn it for himself though, the parent cant "teach" an emotion man. Thats ridiculous. Its part of how we are wired.
-------------------- "Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein "peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Thomas Jefferson "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The Ego [Re: dorkus]
#5560500 - 04/26/06 09:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I do agree with Osho and so does Leary and RAW. That quote is from Prometheus Rising by RAW.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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dorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
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Ah I actually have that book, but it's laying at my parents place a long way from here. I guess I'll dig it up when I visit for the summer.
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dblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Holy crap man, welcome back!
I just recently picked up three or four of Osho's books, and so far I think they are very insightful.
Did he really not practice what he preached? I don't know much about the man himself, just what he said.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: The Ego [Re: blaze2]
#5562379 - 04/27/06 10:49 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Do you really think the legal system is true or just in any way shape or form? I suppose you do. For instance I do not believe anyone deserves Jail Not even teh most demented horrible killer. To protect society seperate them sure, but punishment has no place in human hands. It is never weilded rightously, and far from being humane. If they got that much wrong why should I care what they say on ages showing how mature a person is?
My reference to the legal system was an example of the majority believing that "morals" are learned, not innate. I can also point to Piaget's research into human psychological development, among many other developmental psychologists. You ask for proof that your belief is incorrect, yet you offer absolutely no support for your claims other than your belief.
Quote:
I said children feel shame, I did not say they feel it for things that parents think they should. Animals feel shame and should have no reason to if it someting one must be taught. its part of being a communal animal. The parents just shed light on a feeling the kid already has by giving it a name. The kid must learn it for himself though, the parent cant "teach" an emotion man. Thats ridiculous. Its part of how we are wired.
Support? (Beyond just "everyone knows it is so.) Animals feel shame? Really? How do you know? Kids innately feel shame? How do you know?
It is not a matter of being "taught" emotions, it is a matter of learning when to trigger emotions. Shame is NOT innate, as it is (to all possible means of external observation) absent in young children.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The Ego [Re: dblaney]
#5562681 - 04/27/06 12:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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dblaney said: Holy crap man, welcome back!
I just recently picked up three or four of Osho's books, and so far I think they are very insightful.
Did he really not practice what he preached? I don't know much about the man himself, just what he said.
Thanks friend.
It appears that Osho melted down in a big way at the end. Power corrupts. Also it points to something I have come to suspect. Enlightment is not a state where one may live. It comes at a time conditions are fertile (almost never) and then you are left to deal with the details of still being a human being. It's not permanent and those who don't see that will take the fall for pretending it is (ego lol) You can see it all around. I think more than you might think have a brief momentous encounter with pure enlightenment, but it doesn't last and you need the humbleness of a warrior I guess to survive your encounter with enlightenment. I myself wouldn't know from experience.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (04/27/06 12:31 PM)
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Re: The Ego [Re: dblaney]
#5563524 - 04/27/06 04:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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The ego is just an idea in your mind...like any other idea. How often do your other ideas eat? I make mine take a bath every Saturday night.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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"Enlightment is not a state where one may live." Maybe not....but it is a great vacation spot.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Just like Big Rock Candy Mountain.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said: The ego is just an idea in your mind...like any other idea. How often do your other ideas eat? I make mine take a bath every Saturday night.
Whether they need it or not, hmm? I guess it depends on how dirty your mind is.
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dblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Enlightment is not a state where one may live. It comes at a time conditions are fertile (almost never) and then you are left to deal with the details of still being a human being. It's not permanent and those who don't see that will take the fall for pretending it is
This is essentially what Hinayana Buddhism asserts. And to me, it seems almost escapist in attitude: "Well now, I don't like all these ups and downs and suffering, so I'm just gonna go find Enlightenment." Mahayana Buddhism, however, asserts that Nirvana and Samsara are one and the same. It teaches nonduality: that we are all Brahman, we are all Enlightened, we just don't realize it because of Maya (the Grand Illusion).
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The Ego [Re: Veritas]
#5563636 - 04/27/06 04:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hue does not have a dirty mind! (poor guy) I however have one dirty enough for the both of us and so the Universe remains in balance.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Hey, pornography is part of the Tao! Don't lay your moralisms on us, man.
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dblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said: The ego is just an idea in your mind...like any other idea. How often do your other ideas eat? I make mine take a bath every Saturday night.
Hm, well I'm not sure if an idea is the best way to describe the ego. Ideas are fleeting, they arise and disappear. But the ego is a constant feature of the human organism. It changes over time, sure, but it doesn't arise and disappear like ideas (unless of couse you're on a very high dosage of psychedelic medicine ). Also, we identify with the ego, whereas we recognize that while we HAVE ideas, we aren't the ideas. If we did, it would be exceedingly difficult to survive.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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