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OfflineRazman
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trying to understand strain degradation
    #5550860 - 04/24/06 11:48 AM (18 years, 29 days ago)

From what i understand so far about strain degradation,

Cell division, after too many times, will cause errors in the genetic structure. This is what causes mycillium to age.

How does using spores from a nearly spent strain give birth to healthy vigorous mycillium if the spores were taken from a mushroom which, at one time, underwent large amounts of cell division?

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InvisibleBlimeyGrimey
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Re: trying to understand strain degradation [Re: Razman]
    #5551327 - 04/24/06 02:44 PM (18 years, 29 days ago)

the spores are new cell, so to speak. they havent divided over and over thus have new vigour.

however if you were to clone the mycelium by taking a piece and putting it on a new agar plate, it would of course be sluggish.

remember that spores only contain a certain amount of genetic code. thus the chances that some spores only have good genes and not the errored ones are high. it only takes 2 good spores to combine to make a healthy mycelia network again.

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Invisibleagar
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Re: trying to understand strain degradation [Re: Razman]
    #5553295 - 04/24/06 11:14 PM (18 years, 28 days ago)

It is like old age in humans.

Body-parts start to degrade, malfunction & fail, the older you get.

All the same, a half senile old fart in ill-health, who can still get it up & ejaculate, can start a whole new healthy generation.


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Invisiblemycogirl
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Re: trying to understand strain degradation [Re: agar]
    #5553324 - 04/24/06 11:21 PM (18 years, 28 days ago)

Its referred to senescence in mycelium. From what I understand, cells have a predetermined number of divisions, something about tags, I still don't fully understand this, however, other cells, like human stem cells can divide virtually forever.

It would be interesting to see the energy distribution between the two types of cells. Stem cells seem like they would be programed to spend more energy on perfect replication, seeing as they give rise to an entire new organism. Cells that are actually part of a larger organ or have very determinate functions I would bet spend more energy on other protein production. Damn, I love science, there's always one more question to ask...


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Offlinebeyondsisxth
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Re: trying to understand strain degradation [Re: mycogirl]
    #5554145 - 04/25/06 06:46 AM (18 years, 28 days ago)

Telomeres are one of the causes of senescence. The reason that spores don't suffer from their predecessor's degradation is due to telomerase, which is expressed only at specific times and at specific places, such as meiosis creating gametes in fruit bodies.

To clarify, in short, telomeres are stretches of non-coding DNA that lay at the end of chromosomes. During the synthesis portion of Mitosis when DNA is replicating, the telomeres shorten slightly. This happens with each division; the telomere shortens a little more. While DNA is being replicated it separates into two ends, one is the leading strand of replication and one is the lagging strand. The protein complex that travels down the leading strand has to attach at the end of the chromosome, in the telomere area. However, the point where the protein complex binds, complementary base pairing is not occuring (because the protein complex is in the way) so a very small piece at the end gets left out. After tons of divisions, these little pieces start to add up into large chunks of DNA being loss, and eventually when the telomere is eroded your aging cell lines begin losing coding DNA important for metabolic function.

Telomerase resets the clock by providing a template for complementary base pairing to work backwards, so to speak, and build a new telomere.

Additionally, stem cells don't necessarilly replicate forever, eventually they too senesce. Thats why you hear about old stem cell lines going bad, you can only propogate one line of cells for so long in the abscence of telomerase. Aging is an unfortunate consequence of our biological mechanism for information transmission; DNA replication.

Edited by beyondsisxth (04/25/06 06:58 AM)

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Offlineshirley knott
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Re: trying to understand strain degradation [Re: agar]
    #5554767 - 04/25/06 12:27 PM (18 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

agar said:
It is like old age in humans.

Body-parts start to degrade, malfunction & fail, the older you get.

All the same, a half senile old fart in ill-health, who can still get it up & ejaculate, can start a whole new healthy generation.


  :laugh: :thumbup: amen brother


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buh

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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: trying to understand strain degradation [Re: beyondsisxth]
    #5557247 - 04/26/06 12:56 AM (18 years, 27 days ago)

top post there mate. Very informative.
When i think of strain degredation i think more along the lines of selective culturing reducing the amount or vigourness of alternative phenotypes but i guess that doesnt always explain mutations and the like.


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: trying to understand strain degradation [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #5560949 - 04/26/06 10:51 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Awsome post beyondsisxth..5 shrooms if I havnt already done so.


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"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay

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Invisiblemycogirl
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Re: trying to understand strain degradation [Re: scatmanrav]
    #5561158 - 04/26/06 11:53 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

"In contrast to tumor cells, which can divide forever (are "immortal"), normal human cells have a limited capacity to proliferate (are "mortal"). In general, cells cultured from a fetus divide more times in culture than those from a child, which in turn divide more times than those from an adult. The length of the telomeres decreases both as a function of donor age and with the number of times a cell has divided in culture."

This is an awesome page on this this topic if anyone in interested, I remember learning about this in cell and molecular bio, what happens to telomeres due to leading and lagging strands, but I completely forgot about it.

Telomerase


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Offlinebeyondsisxth
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Re: trying to understand strain degradation [Re: mycogirl]
    #5561225 - 04/27/06 12:13 AM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Yeah, some tumor cells gain their "immortality", so to speak, from a loss of function of certain regulatory oncogenes. Most importantly many cancer cells lose the ability to apoptize, or initiate cell death. Normally all the genetic damage thats accumulated from various form of oncogenesis would cause the cell to just kill itself, but when it loses this ability thats when the tumor starts.


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The sun was pulling cheap shots doing commercial body tricks, Behind the back, Under the leg, I think he even did a headspin, On a crossfader that sounded whack, But looked excellent, All of the sudden it gets dim, The crater face steps in, Puts mexican drumbreaks on the Technics, He's like "Let's begin", He conducted an orchestra so dope the sun started sweatin' him, I guess he'd expected to win on pure artistic merit, Composing complex plays with nothin but soundbytes, Burned out the lights, Made MCs too self conscious quit the master mics, For a thousand nights, It continued without a single slip up, Except once the record skipped, But it kinda sounded cool.

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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: trying to understand strain degradation [Re: beyondsisxth]
    #5561360 - 04/27/06 12:55 AM (18 years, 26 days ago)

So thats why LSD and psilocybin causes tumors!

Sorry, I was having to much fun tonight, bed time!


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay

Edited by scatmanrav (04/27/06 12:56 AM)

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Invisiblemycogirl
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Re: trying to understand strain degradation [Re: beyondsisxth]
    #5562580 - 04/27/06 12:01 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

beyondsisxth said:
Yeah, some tumor cells gain their "immortality", so to speak, from a loss of function of certain regulatory oncogenes. Most importantly many cancer cells lose the ability to apoptize, or initiate cell death. Normally all the genetic damage thats accumulated from various form of oncogenesis would cause the cell to just kill itself, but when it loses this ability thats when the tumor starts.




It's more than that though. That accounts for the rapid cell division. But after a set number of divisions, the cell still should die. The immortality is accounted for by the activation of telomerase. The telomers aren't becoming shorter after DNA replication, so it can theoretically divide forever. With the oncogene mutation it can divide rapidly. Its the combination of the two that makes cancer the epic it is.


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Offlinebeyondsisxth
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Re: trying to understand strain degradation [Re: mycogirl]
    #5562630 - 04/27/06 12:15 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Those are both parts of it, yes, I'll agree with you on that. And theres another too! In many cancers there are mobile segments of DNA replicating and planting themselves all over the genome, randomly. Thats the mechanism by which important genes eventually get deactivated, when a rogue strand implants itself in the middle of a coding stretch, and the cell decends into full blown cancer. This rogue DNA doesn't stop, and it continues to spread everywhere, progressively ruining each chromosome as it goes.

The difference can be striking. Here are two pictures, the first of a normal human karyotype, the way our genomes should look when condensed into chromatin.



Now this second picture is of a karyotype from a prostate cancer cell line.



This cell should be melting down, but it can't kill itself. You can see trisomies, tetrasomies and pentasomies of a few chromosomes, as well as chromosomes pairs which no longer resemble each other. The chromosome pairs that no longer resemble each other, particularly M7 and M3 are likely victims of some rogue DNA implanting into the chromosome and changing its size.

Also, sorry if at any time I come off as pedantic, not trying to, I just really like talking about this stuff and get carried away sometimes.


--------------------
The sun was pulling cheap shots doing commercial body tricks, Behind the back, Under the leg, I think he even did a headspin, On a crossfader that sounded whack, But looked excellent, All of the sudden it gets dim, The crater face steps in, Puts mexican drumbreaks on the Technics, He's like "Let's begin", He conducted an orchestra so dope the sun started sweatin' him, I guess he'd expected to win on pure artistic merit, Composing complex plays with nothin but soundbytes, Burned out the lights, Made MCs too self conscious quit the master mics, For a thousand nights, It continued without a single slip up, Except once the record skipped, But it kinda sounded cool.

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Invisiblemycogirl
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Re: trying to understand strain degradation [Re: beyondsisxth]
    #5563109 - 04/27/06 02:46 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Its cool. I love this stuff, and I always appreciate learning one more thing. So do you know what exactly it is that inhibits apoptosis? I know there's a whole caspase pathway involved but from my understanding of it, it seems like there's a ton of ways to induce apoptosis, but I don't really understand how you would inhibit it.


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Offlinebeyondsisxth
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Re: trying to understand strain degradation [Re: mycogirl]
    #5563254 - 04/27/06 03:23 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Rather then thinking of apoptosis being inhibited, think of it as being broken. You've hit the nail on the head with the capsase pathway. What triggers that is a gene called p53, which serves as a transcription factor for a number of events, mainly DNA repair. In the event that DNA repair fails it instigates apoptosis. Apoptosis is a complex event that involves cell shrinkage, DNA shredding and protein degradation. The more part of this process that break, the less likely that apoptosis will complete. Break the key parts of apoptosis and you can't carry it out, leaving a cancer cell that refuses to die.


--------------------
The sun was pulling cheap shots doing commercial body tricks, Behind the back, Under the leg, I think he even did a headspin, On a crossfader that sounded whack, But looked excellent, All of the sudden it gets dim, The crater face steps in, Puts mexican drumbreaks on the Technics, He's like "Let's begin", He conducted an orchestra so dope the sun started sweatin' him, I guess he'd expected to win on pure artistic merit, Composing complex plays with nothin but soundbytes, Burned out the lights, Made MCs too self conscious quit the master mics, For a thousand nights, It continued without a single slip up, Except once the record skipped, But it kinda sounded cool.

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Invisiblemycogirl
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Re: trying to understand strain degradation [Re: beyondsisxth]
    #5564610 - 04/27/06 09:11 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

If anyone in interested

Apoptosis and Cancer
Some viruses associated with cancers use tricks to prevent apoptosis of the cells they have transformed.

* Several human papilloma viruses (HPV) have been implicated in causing cervical cancer. One of them produces a protein (E6) that binds and inactivates the apoptosis promoter p53.
* Epstein-Barr Virus (EBV), the cause of mononucleosis and associated with some lymphomas
o produces a protein similar to Bcl-2
o produces another protein that causes the cell to increase its own production of Bcl-2. Both these actions make the cell more resistant to apoptosis (thus enabling a cancer cell to continue to proliferate).

Even cancer cells produced without the participation of viruses may have tricks to avoid apoptosis.

* Some B-cell leukemias and lymphomas express high levels of Bcl-2, thus blocking apoptotic signals they may receive. The high levels result from a translocation of the BCL-2 gene into an enhancer region for antibody production. [Discussion].
* Melanoma (the most dangerous type of skin cancer) cells avoid apoptosis by inhibiting the expression of the gene encoding Apaf-1.
* Some cancer cells, especially lung and colon cancer cells, secrete elevated levels of a soluble "decoy" molecule that binds to FasL, plugging it up so it cannot bind Fas. Thus, cytotoxic T cells (CTL) cannot kill the cancer cells by the mechanism shown above.
* Other cancer cells express high levels of FasL, and can kill any cytotoxic T cells (CTL) that try to kill them because CTL also express Fas (but are protected from their own FasL).

**This is interesting to me because it looks like there is a grab bag of ways to inhibit apoptosis. It looks like the particular method you were describing occurs in melanoma but different types of cancer inhibit apoptosis in different ways. Hmm, interesting.


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Offlinebeyondsisxth
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Re: trying to understand strain degradation [Re: mycogirl]
    #5564725 - 04/27/06 09:41 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Thats why cancer is so complicated, its really just a way of saying "The cells broken and won't stop growing" and theres definately several ways that can happen. This is also the reason why a cure is so difficult.


--------------------
The sun was pulling cheap shots doing commercial body tricks, Behind the back, Under the leg, I think he even did a headspin, On a crossfader that sounded whack, But looked excellent, All of the sudden it gets dim, The crater face steps in, Puts mexican drumbreaks on the Technics, He's like "Let's begin", He conducted an orchestra so dope the sun started sweatin' him, I guess he'd expected to win on pure artistic merit, Composing complex plays with nothin but soundbytes, Burned out the lights, Made MCs too self conscious quit the master mics, For a thousand nights, It continued without a single slip up, Except once the record skipped, But it kinda sounded cool.

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InvisibleBlimeyGrimey
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Re: trying to understand strain degradation [Re: beyondsisxth]
    #5572902 - 04/30/06 01:43 AM (18 years, 23 days ago)

luckily a new possible cancer treatment is in the works using an old ethno. Artemisin (sp?) derived from Artemisia annua has been used recently as a malaria treatment and now is being tested as a cancer treatment. supposedly it attacks only cells with high iron concentrations , which cancer usually has. my biggest question "how will it affect red blood cells since iron is a key in hemoglobin?"

anyways back to the topic of strain degeneration......
arent most atlantis cultures and tampanensis cultures already suffering from this?
i remember reading that alot of the cultures of these 2 species were very degenerated until Workman breed his ATL7 of atlantis.

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