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InvisibleThorA
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Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems
    #554950 - 02/18/02 12:15 AM (22 years, 13 days ago)

Please give this a read, very interesting stuff.. Especially important for any Vendors out there....



The Strange Case of Mark Niemoeller
Travis Dunn, AlterNet
February 12, 2002


Mark Niemoeller, 46, of Columbus, Ind., decided to give up farming in 1987. With money loaned to him by a friend, Niemoeller set up a mail-order business that he ran from his family farm. The business, JLF Poisonous Non-Consumables, began with the sale of one product: amanita muscaria mushrooms. Niemoeller picked the red-capped mushrooms himself, dried them out in an old RV, then placed an ad in High Times magazine. Soon JLF Poisonous Non-Consumables was inundated with orders. By September 2001, JLF had become a multi-million-dollar business -- raking in $50,000 a month and branching out into the sale of hundreds of other plants, mushroom species and pure chemical compounds.

Why would a company that sells purportedly poisonous products advertise in High Times?
Perhaps because JLF's best-selling product, amanita muscaria, as well as dozens of other products now included in the catalogue, have powerful psychoactive properties -- when ingested.

Ingestion is the key here, since Niemoeller contends that the consumption of JLF's products is not an issue. The legal justification for his argument, he says, is right in the company's name -- JLF Poisonous Non-Consumables.
JLF requires that every customer recite a disclaimer in a recorded telephone conversation. The disclaimer states that the customer is over 18 years old and will not ingest products purchased from JLF.

In addition to the disclaimer, JLF's catalogue displays a lengthy warning, which makes it quite clear to the customer, Niemoeller says, that JLF products are not to be taken internally.
"Do not take orally (into your mouth) as a food, a beverage, a chew, a toothpick, a nutritional supplement, a medicine, a drug or an agent of suicide," reads a portion of the warning. "Do not eat, drink, inject, inhale, insert, absorb, snuff, snort, smoke, slam or ingest in any way. Do not stick, put, or throw into your or another person's mouth, nose, ear, eye, anus, urethra, vagina, or any other orifice or port-of-entry that may exist on your or another person's body."
For nearly 15 years no one called into question JLF and its unusual disclaimers.

In the late 1990s, however, several law enforcement agencies, including the Drug Enforcement Administration, the Food and Drug Administration and the Indiana State Police, began to take a keen interest in JLF.
On Sept. 7, 2001, police served Niemoeller with a search and seizure warrant. They confiscated about $250,000 in merchandise, $1 million in assets, bank books, financial records, business ledgers, lists of addresses and phone numbers, documentation of business expenditures, travel documentation, computers and Niemoeller's 1998 Dodge Ram utility van.

Niemoeller wrote out a check to Indianapolis attorney Andrew Matternowsky, who handles a lot of drug and civil liberties cases. Later that week, police froze about $750,000 in Niemoeller's bank accounts, and the check to Matternowsky bounced. (Matternowsky remains unpaid.)
For nearly five months nothing happened. Then on Jan. 28, police arrested Niemoeller and served him with a 13-count federal grand jury indictment. Niemoeller spent the night in the Marion County jail. On March 18, he will stand trial in a federal district court in Indianapolis.
JLF's Non-Consumables
Niemoeller, the grandson of hard-working German immigrants, built up his business atop a pile of red amanitas mushrooms.

While the ritual use of these mushrooms as hallucinogens dates back 8,000 years, back when Siberian shamans ate the mushrooms to induce visionary trances, the use of these mushrooms for such a purpose is not recognized by federal drug laws.
According to Erowid.org, an extensive on-line library of drug information, amanita muscaria is perfectly legal in every country in the world -- with the sole exception of Israel.
In the United States, possession or distribution of amanitas mushrooms cannot be prosecuted under federal drug analogue statutes. The psychoactive compounds contained in the mushroom, ibotenic acid and muscimol, bear no chemical relation to any other known drug.
As sale of these mushrooms brought in large profits, Niemoeller slowly began to add other products to JLF's catalogue.

Prior to the September raid, JLF Poisonous Non-Consumables offered dozens of products that had one thing in common with the amanitas mushrooms -- they were all psychoactive when consumed and not specifically covered by federal drug laws.
It is true, however, that a number of JLF's products are truly poisonous, such as the "destroying angel" mushroom, the leaves of the "deadly poison hemlock," and curare, the infamous dart-poison from the Amazon.
But many of JLF's products have psychoactive, and not poisonous, properties, and these are some of the very products that police have called into question.
Take, for example, 5-MeO-DMT. The chemical shares a certain similarity to dimethyltryptamine, or DMT, a powerful, short-acting hallucinogen, sometimes called "the businessman's trip," since its effects wear off entirely in an hour. According to federal law, DMT is a Schedule I substance.
5-MeO-DMT is another story. When LSD, DMT, PCP, psilocybin and mescaline became federally scheduled substances, 5-MeO-DMT did not.
But when even a few milligrams of the chemical are loaded into a pipe and smoked, the user is instantaneously overcome by psychoactive effects described as far more intense than those of any illegal drug.
Amanita muscaria mushrooms and pure powdered 5-MeO-DMT are not the only potentially psychoactive substances sold by JLF.

There's salvia divinorum, a plant from Oaxaca, Mexico, used by Mazatec Indian shamans to induce powerful visions. Or khat, an African plant, chewed for its amphetamine-like effects. Or yage, a vine used by South American sorcerers to contact the spirit world.
JLF also offers a smorgasbord of exotic chemicals that are unknown, and unpronounceable, to the average American.
JLF also sells products which the indictment claims are "misbranded" prescription drugs, like clenbuterol, L-Dopa, and Dopamine. (Clenbuterol is a sort of pseudo-steroid, which promotes muscle growth in both animals and humans; its only approved use is as a syrup given to horses. L-Dopa can be used, as prescription drug, to combat the symptoms of Parkinson's disease. Dopamine is injected by doctors into patients with dangerously low blood pressure.)
Jennifer Bragg, an FDA attorney, says these charges basically mean that Niemoeller was "dispensing prescription drugs without a prescription."

The indictment also alleges that JLF sells a products that can be used to manufacture illegal drugs. JLF sells sassafras oil, which contains a high concentration of safrole. Safrole can be used to make MDMA, or Ecstasy, and it is considered a Schedule I listed chemical, meaning that the DEA tracks and regulates its sale. JLF also sells 1,4 butanediol, another listed chemical, which can be used to manufacture GHB, a federal Schedule I drug (1,4 butanediol can also be ingested to produce effects similar to GHB).
The indictment also charges that JLF sells 2C-T-7, allegedly an analogue of 2C-B, the club drug known as Nexus.
The DEA and FDA have spent years going after Niemoeller, presumably on the assumption that Niemoeller is, in reality, operating a quasi-legal drug-dealing operation.
Whether the police are right, or whether Niemoeller is a legitimate businessman -- who has successfully carved out a lucrative niche market, carefully operating on the outskirts of federal drug laws -- has yet to be determined.
The FDA Investigation, Summer Rose Pray and Senator Daschle
According to discovery documents in the Niemoeller case, police were aware of JLF as early as 1990. A DEA report shows that agents came across packages of dried mushrooms (presumably amanita muscaria) in New York in 1990, as well as morning glory seeds, a San Pedro cactus and jimson weed in Detroit in 1994, all of which allegedly came from JLF.

There were reports from U.S. Customs, the U.S. Border Patrol and various informants about suspicious activity connected with JLF.
But police did not become especially interested in JLF until a series of overdose cases in the late 1990s that were allegedly caused by the consumption of JLF products.
Reports filed by Special Agent Vincent Perino of the FDA's Chicago Field Office show that the FDA first began investigating JLF in December 1998.
Perino writes that Detective Eric Hall of the Cincinnati Police Department informed him of the near-fatal overdose case of Michael Sims, who nearly died after ingesting 1,4 butanediol. Sims allegedly obtained the chemical from JLF.
Hall did some checking on JLF: he discovered that Jeff L. Frownfelter, 42, of Ellettsville, opened a P.O. Box for JLF in 1987. Mark N. Niemoeller added his name to the P.O. Box in 1991. Police guessed that the initials "JLF" most likely stood for Jeff L. Frownfelter.
Police also began to purchase JLF products for laboratory testing. Hall purchased a quantity of 5-MeO-DMT. Other agents were to follow, buying clenbuterol, sassafras oil, cohoba seeds, 2C-T-7 and several other products.
On March 3, 1999, Hall told Perino about the overdose death of a 20-year-old University of Minnesota sophomore named Summer Rose Pray. Pray committed suicide on Sept. 18, 1998, by taking a massive overdose of dextromethorphan hydrobromide, or DXM, which Pray allegedly obtained from JLF. Police have several receipts of the purchases Pray allegedly made from JLF.

DXM is the active ingredient in most over-the-counter cough syrups. In recommended doses, it acts as an expectorant; in large doses, it can cause hallucinations and out-of-body experiences -- "robotripping," as DXM enthusiasts call the unique state of consciousness produced by the drug.
Summer Pray's father, Ron Pray, was outraged by his daughter's death, and contacted Senator Tom Daschle's office.
Ron Pray sent a letter to Ace Gallagher, a Daschle staffer, on April 2, 2000, in which Pray chronicles his daughter's drug abuse (beginning with marijuana), her purported addiction to DXM, and her participation in various drug treatment programs. (A fax cover sheet, included in discovery documents, shows that Senator Edward M. Kennedy's Labor Police Office was also aware of Pray's letter.)
After Summer Pray finished an out-patient drug-treatment program and began "seeing a psychologist for depression," Ron Pray sent a letter to JLF in August, 2000, "asking that they not provide this substance [DXM] to her again."
According to a receipt obtained by police, however, Summer Pray did make another purchase of DXM from JLF shortly before she committed suicide.

"I investigated JLF and found that they readily sell dangerous drugs and mushrooms but have a disclaimer that it is not for consumption," Ron Pray wrote to Daschle's office. "They make the ridiculous claim that the materials they sell are for religious worship, research or for decorations. Reading between the lines it is obvious to me that they sell an assortment of drugs to individuals for the purpose of intoxication ...
"Summer's death was a result of the combination of depression and drug abuse ... I feel that we could have dealt with her depression successfully, had it not been for the strong addiction she developed to dextromethorphan ... Had this drug not been so readily available maybe Summer would be alive today.

"It does not seem reasonable that a company like JLF should be allowed to sell these dangerous and addictive substances. Basically, they are an internet drug dealer and apparently can operate within the laws. I would hope that somehow their activity could be stopped ... "
Ron Pray's letter, and the attention of Daschle's office, may have provided more momentum to the investigation of JLF. But distribution of DXM is not one of the charges that Niemoeller faces. In fact, DXM, while mentioned in the search warrant of Niemoeller's farm, is not listed in the federal grand jury indictment. That may be because DXM is perfectly legal and is specifically exempted from federal drug laws. And while Summer Pray may have overdosed on DXM purchased from Niemoeller, she could have accomplished the same outcome by drinking a few bottles of Robotussin.
But the case of Summer Pray may bolster the prosecution's argument that Niemoeller knows his customers are using his products for consumption.

Summer Pray isn't the only person to overdose on products that allegedly came from JLF.
At least one other death has been traced to a JLF product. Free-lance writer Mark Boal reports in the Jan. 31 issue of Rolling Stone that 17-year-old Joshua Robbins died on April 2, 2000, after snorting 35 mg of 2C-T-7 ("A Journey Into the Designer-Drug Underground"). Robbins obtained the drug from a friend, who allegedly purchased it from JLF.
(Boal also writes, more than half-way through the article, that Robbins also consumed a minithin -- 25 mg of ephedrine and 5 mg of guaifenisen -- immediately prior to snorting the whopping dose of 2C-T-7, and several hours after huffing nitrous oxide and swallowing a hit of Ecstasy, which typically can contain all sorts of adulterants.)
Boal's article also recounts the overdose death of 20-year-old Jacob Duroy, who died after snorting 35 mg of 2C-T-7, which again allegedly originated at JLF.
Discovery documents in the Niemoeller case also relate the nearly-fatal 2C-T-7 overdose of Christopher Little of Overland Park, Kan., on April 5, 2001.

Various reports from the DEA, FDA and ISP, included in discovery documents, mention at least a dozen other cases involving JLF products -- including poppy seeds intercepted in Buenes Aires, Argentina, 2C-T-7, DXM and DPT being sold at raves in Wisconsin, a bottle of sassafras oil with a JLF label found at a clandestine MDMA lab, and soldiers at Fort Campbell using 5-MeO-DIPT (or "Foxy Methoxy").
The Consumption of Non-Consumables
The big burden of proof for prosecutors will be to demonstrate that Niemoeller intentionally sold his products for consumption.
Niemoeller contends that JLF's exhaustive disclaimer is sufficient refutation of this argument.
However, Niemoeller will have to defend himself against recorded conversations he had with undercover agents regarding the consumption and illegal use of JLF products.
One of these conversations is likely to be a center piece of the case. On April 18, 2000, FDA Special Agent Vincent Perino went undercover, met with Niemoeller, bought several items, including clenbuterol, and had an extensive recorded conversation with Niemoeller.

Perino repeatedly attempts to draw Niemoeller into discussion about the illegal use of JLF's products by introducing the following topics: the pressing of Clenbuterol powder into pills, the use of Clenbuterol as a muscle-builder, the manufacture of MDMA from sassafras oil and the use of L-Tryptophan as a sleep aid.
But Perino is doing most of the talking on the tape, and much of Niemoeller's statements are somewhat ambiguous.
For example, after Perino and Niemoeller discuss the pressing of clenbuterol into pills, Niemoeller says, "Ah, I just heard this through the grapevine ... I haven't talked to any of them myself, this guy had the idea, I said, well yeah, it sounds like a pretty good idea ... "
In other portion of the conversation, Niemoeller makes these comments about "how to do business":
Niemoeller: On the other hand, you might have somebody look at my web site thinking, well that's not really the kind of web site I'm looking for, I'm looking for bodybuilding materials ...

Perino: Exactly, that's what I --
Niemoeller: There's no bodybuilding anywhere --
Perino: See that's what I'm thinking.
Niemoeller: On this site, they're thinking it's not gonna be there but it's really, it's all based on a lack of understanding of how --
Perino: Right.
Niemoeller: How to do business.
Perino: Right, right, of course. I mean yeah that fucking disclaimer is the biggest -- that's hilarious.
Niemoeller: Nobody does business like us and nobody really knows how to go about thinking what we're doing.
'Nobody Really Knows'
Police and prosecutors obviously had a difficult time focusing the investigation -- particularly in figuring out how various substances were classified under federal laws and regulations.
Discovery documents, which include reports from the FDA, DEA, ISP and drug lab reports, show that police went through a whole gamut of JLF's products before deciding on the products mentioned in the indictment.
While many of these items are listed neither in the indictment nor in the search warrant, prosecutors did succeed in preventing Niemoeller from selling them, if only for a limited time.

In order to get out of the Marion County jail, Niemoeller says he made a deal with prosecutors, in which he agreed not to sell the items mentioned in the indictment, as well as those in the search warrant, as well as the following products: 2C-T-2, Brazilian sassafras oil, 5-MeO-DMT, 5-MeO-DIPT, the skins of bufo marinus toads, tramadol, benzylpiperazine, L-tryptophan and betel nuts.
Whether or not JLF can continue to sell these products will be determined in court.
Niemoeller has no idea why prosecutors chose the particular items they did, or why they did not chose other products in the JLF catalogue.
He suspects that prosecutors are "trying to throw their weight around" by undermining his business.

And his business certainly has been undermined: profits have dropped off 90 percent since Sept. 7, he says, and are likely to worsen now that he has signed an agreement to stop selling the abovementioned items.
But Niemoeller is particularly annoyed at how FDA officials have handled his case. First, Niemoeller questions why his business is being targeted for the sale of L-Dopa, dopamine and clenbuterol, when there are plenty of other companies that sell the same products -- for example, the chemical supply houses where he purchased these very items.
Second, Niemoeller wonders why the FDA did not send him a warning, as it habitually does to businesses found in violation of FDA regulations.
"They could have put those items in a warning letter, and we could have avoided all this," he says.
Instead Niemoeller says police chose to act in a manner that he describes as "domestic terrorism."
"Although on a much smaller and less violent scale, JLF suffered a similar attack at the hands of domestic terrorists whose activities, if unchallenged, will just as assuredly diminish and erode our freedoms as the any attack by religious zealots," reads an essay posted on www.jlfcatalog.com.
The Legal Quagmire
The looming legal battle is likely to be long and strange, says Andrew Matternowsky, Niemoeller's attorney.

"There's virtuallly no precedent in this area," he says. "We're in an area where there's virtually no case law. If [the police] had gone in and found a pound of cocaine it would be different."
Some of the products they have in their possession are apt to cause all sorts of confusion.
Take, for example, cohoba seeds, a product offered by JLF, but one that was not mentioned either in the search warrant or in the indictment.
These South American seeds contain concentrations of 5-MeO-DMT, DMT and bufotenin. DMT and bufotenin are Schedule I chemicals. Because, however, the cohoba seeds contain DMT and bufotenin, Matternowsky argues, does not automatically imply that the seeds themselves are illegal to possess.
"Clearly those things [DMT and bufotenin] are illegal," he says, "but it's not so clear that the seeds -- a natural object containing them -- are illegal."
This confusion over the legal status of cohoba seeds may be the reason why prosecutors decided to leave them out of the indictment.
Another problem for prosecutors, Matternowsky says, is the legal status of sassafras oil.
While safrole may be on the DEA list of suspicious chemicals, there is no public information that specifically mentions sassafras oil.

Discovery documents, however, include a DEA teletype marked "sensitive" which dictates that the rule that applies to safrole also applies to sassafras oil. "This cable clarifies existing DEA policy," reads the October 1999 teletype.
But there is no way that Niemoeller could have had access to that document, or even had knowledge of the "clarification," which was apparently not made public.
Matternowsky also argues that the outcome of the case could be potentially "disastrous" for the civil liberties of all Americans.
"There are so many natural sources for controlled substances and chemicals that can be used to manufacture controlled substances ... that anybody could be at risk at any time," he says. He picks out the example of phalaris arundinacea, a common lawn grass that contains high concentrations of bufotenin and DMT.

"How do you know that the ornamental border grass around your flower garden doesn't contain DMT?" he says.
"It's very interesting. I'm really at a point where we don't know completely what to do because the whole thing is so obscure and vague," Matternowsky says. "I think, in a true-believer sense, these agents are convinced that what [Niemoeller] is doing is illegal. The problem is, there's not really a factual basis for them to say that."

Travis Dunn, a former police-beat reporter for The Star Democrat in Easton, Md., now works as a free-lance writer in Fort Myers, Fla. You can reach him at pressbuzzard@yahoo.com.

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OfflineJammer
Computers areMORE Addictive!

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Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: Thor]
    #554955 - 02/18/02 12:21 AM (22 years, 13 days ago)

I dont think that most people had ANY idea how large that his business had became. Based on the tiny ad in High Times and the skimpy little paper pamplet that could be ordered, who could of guessed?

That is a most apropiate post for this site I must say!


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>>Jammer>>

Edited by Jammer (02/18/02 12:39 AM)

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InvisibleThorA
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Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: Jammer]
    #554961 - 02/18/02 12:37 AM (22 years, 13 days ago)

Yeah it makes you realize the huge market for such companies..

Here's the link to the article, its a little easier to read since this is a long article :smile:

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12393

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Anonymous

Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: Jammer]
    #554964 - 02/18/02 12:40 AM (22 years, 13 days ago)

I remember perusing his site and I'm pretty sure he was selling live ergot cultures. In any case his operation became way to large. I don't think there are any vendors here that would fall anywhere near this guys category.

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OfflineJammer
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Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: ]
    #554970 - 02/18/02 12:48 AM (22 years, 13 days ago)

I remeber a few years ago my friend was ordering stuff almost every week from them! - It was all 'shroom related, and once he made the mistake of getting some Baby Woodrose seeds (the seeds were a HUGE mistake of which I wont get into here)

We were wondering what the hell all of those unspeakable chemicals were used for... we figured, if we didnt know what they were... then people should best advoid them. THANK GOD.


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>>Jammer>>

Edited by Jammer (02/18/02 12:49 AM)

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InvisibleThorA
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Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: Jammer]
    #554973 - 02/18/02 12:49 AM (22 years, 13 days ago)

He got gready, had he kept away from Research chems I think he may have saved himself a lot of troubles....

I just can't get over how much money he made with just Amanita's and a banner in High Times .... Crazy stuff....

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Anonymous

Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: Thor]
    #554979 - 02/18/02 01:04 AM (22 years, 13 days ago)

Very interesting post. Thanks Thor.

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OfflineCrobih
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Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: Thor]
    #555056 - 02/18/02 04:11 AM (22 years, 12 days ago)

Not Thor..... Te guy followed the law, and the law will not be able to prosecute him for doing non illegal things. That is the base of LAW.

The only problem he fucked himself up was the scale he did it. And the fact is that they wont have any resons to jail him up if he was clever. And with that money, he only hes to get clever lawyer wich is not hard to do.

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OfflineJammer
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Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: Crobih]
    #555059 - 02/18/02 04:16 AM (22 years, 12 days ago)

All of his money in the banks has been "frozen" by the feds. In fact, if you read the article you should of caught the part where it mentioned that the check he wrote to his lawer had bounced:

"Niemoeller wrote out a check to Indianapolis attorney Andrew Matternowsky, who handles a lot of drug and civil liberties cases. Later that week, police froze about $750,000 in Niemoeller's bank accounts, and the check to Matternowsky bounced. (Matternowsky remains unpaid.)"


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>>Jammer>>

Edited by Jammer (02/18/02 04:18 AM)

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OfflinepsilocyberV
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Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: Thor]
    #555116 - 02/18/02 06:47 AM (22 years, 12 days ago)

Post deleted by administrator.

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Offlineiangato
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Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law proble [Re: Jammer]
    #555143 - 02/18/02 07:48 AM (22 years, 12 days ago)

what was wrong with the hawaiian baby woodrose seeds? did they not work? just curious. adios. peace.


--------------------
a blurry dot dances among the shadows
bends the light
and fizzles into my pink and glowing mind

-ian gato

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OfflineJammer
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Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law proble [Re: iangato]
    #555145 - 02/18/02 07:52 AM (22 years, 12 days ago)

It was a matter of ignorance.......

Kids never make this mistake: Eating a $20.00 OZ (price of then) of baby woodrose seeds in the form of blended up mush is allmost SUICIDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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>>Jammer>>

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Offlinegorgebush
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Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: ]
    #555258 - 02/18/02 10:35 AM (22 years, 12 days ago)

I remeber a couple years ago I was looking on his site found a whole page of differnt ergot cultures ... One was a ergot culture that went for $2,500.00 .
I would think this would have got the DEA attention .. The pure compounds was stupid , anyone attempting to make designer drugs should be able to extract these things themself.

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OfflineMinorThreat405
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Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: Thor]
    #555640 - 02/18/02 06:58 PM (22 years, 12 days ago)

When will our goverment learn?


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Kill your Mom and Dad
sXe

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Anonymous

Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: psilocyber]
    #555727 - 02/18/02 09:21 PM (22 years, 12 days ago)

Well stated Psilocyber.

The article appears to have been spoon feed to the journalist by MARK. But I haven't read anything else from the guy, so props are due.

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InvisibleMicronMagick
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Post deleted by users_request [Re: Thor]
    #555830 - 02/18/02 11:25 PM (22 years, 12 days ago)

Post deleted by administrator.

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OfflineJammer
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Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: MicronMagick]
    #555887 - 02/19/02 12:22 AM (22 years, 12 days ago)

' dumb question here- What does MMFD stand for?


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>>Jammer>>

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OfflineKinoko
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Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: Jammer]
    #555984 - 02/19/02 03:57 AM (22 years, 12 days ago)

Micron Magick Filter Disks? :smile:


--------------------
"The inevitability of the unexpected."

Edited by Kinoko (02/19/02 04:08 AM)

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InvisibleGGreatOne234
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Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: Kinoko]
    #556002 - 02/19/02 05:20 AM (22 years, 11 days ago)

Unreal.. thanks for showing this Thor..

From what i read, i hope that JLF gets away with this...

I had no idea that their website was capable of making that kind of cash...

The only thing that makes his case particularly messy, is the actual "chemicals" he was obtaining and selling
-That might be where he gets burned, if he does.

All of the natural products seem to be "legal" for him to sell,
but the chemicals (liquids and powders) may get him in some trouble.

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InvisibleGGreatOne234
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 8,946
Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: Kinoko]
    #556003 - 02/19/02 05:21 AM (22 years, 11 days ago)

Paragraphs like these are working against his case;  :smile:
"Boal also writes, more than half-way through the article, that Robbins also
                                  consumed a minithin -- 25 mg of ephedrine and 5 mg of guaifenisen --
                                  immediately prior to snorting the whopping dose of 2C-T-7, and several
                                  hours after huffing nitrous oxide and swallowing a hit of Ecstasy, which
                                  typically can contain all sorts of adulterants"

heheh, stupid kidz..

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OfflineCrobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/03/98
Posts: 2,015
Loc: cave
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: GGreatOne234]
    #556290 - 02/19/02 01:33 PM (22 years, 11 days ago)

If that guy dont finish in jail, that would be a good prove to anybody that mushroom growing is not ILLEGAL by itself. Talking about US.

Moderators, feel free to do spell check...and grammar chek :smile:

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InvisibleRyche HawkV
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Posts: 2,112
Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: Thor]
    #556541 - 02/19/02 05:57 PM (22 years, 11 days ago)

Yep, this really is going to be a very important case for civil liberties. So many natural plants out there that contain controlled substances including many species of mushrooms. I've never understood that law, how can we be charged with possession of a controlled substance, psilocyn, for having mushrooms. The laws do not say mushrooms containing psilocyn, they simply refer to the scheduled drug. As long as your not extracing the psilocyn and putting it in chemical form.
Anyway, that is a whole other topic.

I'm personally blown away how much money JLF was making from these substances. They siezed nearly a million$$ in assets !!! That is amazing he was making so much money from these substances. I think I started off in the wrong business :smile:
I certainly dont want to see Mark from JLF go to jail for this. Although he should have been a little more careful about some of the substances he was selling. Especially if he knew people could overdose from them. Perhaps he did let greed get the better of him....I dont know.  He did make a good point that the FDA did not send him any warning that he was in violation of any FDA regulations. Yet they were fully aware of what he was selling for several years.

On another note... a big props to his attorney Andrew Matternowsky for taking the case even after the checked bounced from Marks assets being siezed. I hope good things come to him for not turning his back on Mark.

Something that also catches my attention about this JLF seizure, is the fact that the undercover ageant tried talking information out of Mark about illegal activities. Isn't that entraptment ?? And also the fact that they do that. I've had many customers ask if they could meet me for lunch etc and pick up spores and talk to me about growing. I of course decline.
In fact I've been giving a lot of thought to stopping email support of growing tips completly. Psilocyber from Sporeworks and I had a long talk about this. Both of us decided that was to much of a grey area of giving out so much information pertaining to growing mushrooms. Although I try and generalize it to apply to any mushrooms and not specifically illegal mushrooms.
Although I have been very careful as to how I word my advice, I am going to make a change in my policy soon to protect us further.

One last note about what JLF was doing... selling the skin of dried toads so people could get high. That is just lame. Those poor innocent toads. Just creatures of the earth trying to enjoy the swampy life :smile:


My prayers are with Mark and his attorney in hope they do make a difference. These substances in question are produced naturally on this earth. Its our God given right to explore HIS herbs and fruits provided we do it responsibly and do not hurt anyone in the process.


--------------------
-Peace-

High Quality MUSHROOM SPORES and CULTURES  for microscopy at www.muShrooms.com



muShrooms.com is the new web site of
www.thehawkseye.com

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InvisibleLana
Head Banana
Female

Registered: 10/27/99
Posts: 3,109
Loc: www.MycoSupply.com
Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: Thor]
    #556729 - 02/19/02 08:15 PM (22 years, 11 days ago)

Hi Everyone,
Thor, thanks for the post, very good. I think/hope this opens the eyes of both the vendors and our customers.

I know Myco Supply has already gotten the "How do I grow magic mushrooms" email a few times. And in todays society its a shame that you have to watch what you say in fear of being prosecuted.

I have to agree with Ryche though, if Mark would have stayed away from the research chemicals, he would have been much safer.

Good luck Mark......

Lana


--------------------
Myco Supply - Distributors of Mycological Products
http://www.MycoSupply.com

The Premiere Source for Mushroom Growing Supplies.
Visit us online or call us toll free

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InvisibleJackMehoff
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Registered: 10/31/01
Posts: 193
Loc: up your ass
Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #556992 - 02/20/02 12:40 AM (22 years, 11 days ago)

In reply to:

In fact I've been giving a lot of thought to stopping email support of growing tips completly. Psilocyber from Sporeworks and I had a long talk about this. Both of us decided that was to much of a grey area of giving out so much information pertaining to growing mushrooms. Although I try and generalize it to apply to any mushrooms and not specifically illegal mushrooms.
Although I have been very careful as to how I word my advice, I am going to make a change in my policy soon to protect us further.




You are so carefull, thoughtfull, and intelligent that you offer your confessions for the record for the Shroomery and the world to see on a regular basis!!  You, like many others talk to much for your own good.  I assume it has something to do with the self stroke of the ego.  Whatever the case, you could start by thinking about what you post on the internet and how you communicate in every instance related to your business and to the cultivation of a controlled substance thru the use of a product that you sell.  Just for starters :laugh:


The JLF raid may have been brought on by his brazenness, his product line, and the crimes and tragedies of those traced back to his business, true enough.  Anyone who believes that the LEO is not interested in illegal mushrooms, those that grow them, or those facilitateing the growing of illegal mushrooms is increadibly naive or increadibly idiotic.


Never under estimate the gullability of the idiot element. 


--------------------
BULLSHIT

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InvisibleSouthernGent
veteran
Registered: 01/12/02
Posts: 1,331
Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: Thor]
    #557046 - 02/20/02 01:24 AM (22 years, 11 days ago)

After reading this article and knowing the Government does it surprise anyone that JLF is having problems? Bottom line fellas is this. If you fuck with anything hardline that can be used for X or some other crazy designer shit or chemicals the government is going to lock you up. Stick with spores and leave the hard drugs to someone else. My post may not be popular here but I d probably be just a tad bit pissed myself if I ask a company not to sell something to my kid and they sold it anyway and it resulted in death. Just my take on the whole argument.


--------------------

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OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: Thor]
    #557852 - 02/20/02 08:21 PM (22 years, 10 days ago)

I think we're going to see a lot more of this kind of thing in the future. How long has this hobby really been a widespread phenomenon? I read somewhere that PF Tek was invented around 1991-92, and I would guess that that's when this hobby really started to take off. After the advent of the internet and sites like this one it literally exploded. Yeah, there are a bunch of old timers who've been doing this for decades, and people here and there have been at it at least since the glorious 60s. But it's only really been in the last ten years that average Joes all across the country have really gotten into shrooming. For most of those ten years, Clinton was in office and it seems he and his administration took a pretty laid back attitude to the whole drug war thing--certainly mushies were VERY low on the agenda.

Now that Bush II is in office, I think it'll be a different story. Don't forget Operation Green Merchant, which was the brainchild of his dad's administration. That's when the Feds raided all sorts of hydroponics dealers (legal merchants, mind you, it's not like they were selling weed), got their customer lists, and then went around with warrants searching the customer's homes. They rounded up tons of growers.

With a Bush back in office (ex-cocaine user, but now a born-again Christian--what's the fuckin' difference, I say) who's enjoying 80% approval ratings despite the fact that this country and its economy are going to hell, you can expect that there will be more Operation Green Merchants in the future (perhaps "Operation Blue Merchant"?).

Everybody ought to be extremely careful, especially vendors, especially when it comes to customer lists. Remember, even stuff you THINK you've deleted from your computer can be recovered with sophisticated software (and I'm sure those guys have the most sophisticated stuff out there).

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OfflineJammer
Computers areMORE Addictive!

Registered: 11/04/00
Posts: 3,998
Loc: (God's Country) - USA
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: EchoVortex]
    #560371 - 02/23/02 02:05 AM (22 years, 8 days ago)


EchoVortex said:

"Now that Bush II is in office, I think it'll be a different story. Don't forget Operation Green Merchant, which was the brainchild of his dad's administration. That's when the Feds raided all sorts of hydroponics dealers (legal merchants, mind you, it's not like they were selling weed), got their customer lists, and then went around with warrants searching the customer's homes. They rounded up tons of growers."
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

DAMM GOOD EXAMPLE!!!!! - I REMEMBER THAT WELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



--------------------
>>Jammer>>

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OfflineMaddoc
Resurrected!
Male
Registered: 05/06/01
Posts: 121
Loc: London, UK, Basel, CH or ...
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: Crobih]
    #560517 - 02/23/02 09:28 AM (22 years, 7 days ago)

I'm only glad I dont live in "The land of the free and prosperous".

What a "great society" you have there, its only a matter of time until it all changes, but dont expect it to fall into your laps, it takes time and effort.


--------------------
"Your Gimmiky Restraunt - By J.R. Bennigans"

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OfflineDinoMyc
Ipsa scientiapotestas est
Registered: 11/13/99
Posts: 1,080
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: Thor]
    #593833 - 03/30/02 04:12 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

There was a good article of this nature in an ER (entheogen review) from last year. JLF was mentioned, I believe.
And now, with all these #$)#$ in power.. all that is left is a small spark of hope.
Amungst the unfortunate incidents mentioned was several downright illegal maneuvers carried out by law enforcement against apparantly innocent buisnesses...
bah, fucking americans.. what the hell is the problem?


--------------------
If I made affront, I apologize.
If I made affirmation, I apologize.
I merely came to listen, came to say.

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OfflineJammer
Computers areMORE Addictive!

Registered: 11/04/00
Posts: 3,998
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Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: DinoMyc]
    #594216 - 03/31/02 01:04 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

The problem?

Extremely narrow minded/pig-headed/conservative/boozing RED NECKS! - They blame any drug that they dont do for all of this nation's problems.


--------------------
>>Jammer>>

Edited by Jammer (03/31/02 01:05 AM)

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: EchoVortex]
    #595197 - 04/01/02 03:23 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Clinton was in office and it seems he and his administration took a pretty laid back attitude to the whole drug war thing
Not true. A record number of non-violent drug offenders have been imprisoned during Clinton's reign.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Anonymous

Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: Swami]
    #595217 - 04/01/02 04:32 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)


Edited by guitarguy (04/01/02 05:09 AM)

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Anonymous

Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: ]
    #595218 - 04/01/02 04:33 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)


Edited by guitarguy (04/01/02 04:36 AM)

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OfflineJammer
Computers areMORE Addictive!

Registered: 11/04/00
Posts: 3,998
Loc: (God's Country) - USA
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: ]
    #595220 - 04/01/02 04:41 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Your cool man!

That reply was simply awesome!! I could not of said it better myself. That was very well stated indeed. :wink: 


--------------------
>>Jammer>>

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Offlinejohnwsmoke
member
Registered: 03/17/02
Posts: 104
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: Thor]
    #595655 - 04/01/02 03:16 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Do we have any updates on this interesting situation? I'd sure like to know how things are going...and where to get additional information.
???


--------------------
Jon was a crippled, midget, lezbian boy- but he stood 10' tall with a KNIFE...

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OfflineDale_Gribble
journeyman
Registered: 03/17/02
Posts: 64
Loc: Qu?bec
Last seen: 21 years, 7 months
Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems *DELETED* [Re: johnwsmoke]
    #596064 - 04/02/02 12:44 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by Dale_Gribble


--------------------
''Guns don't kill people the goverment does.''
''You actually believe they landed on the moon...''

Edited by Dale_Gribble (04/06/02 10:50 PM)

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Anonymous

Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: Dale_Gribble]
    #596093 - 04/02/02 01:18 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Dale

Would you rather your kid bought unknown substances off a street corner or known substances from a legit vendor who checks for ID?

Leaf

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Anonymous

Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: Dale_Gribble]
    #596120 - 04/02/02 01:57 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Seriously..I get your point but why the added drama?

Im sorry but I cant believe a 12 year old has copies of high times lying around with the extra $500 to buy a gram of this stuff.


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OfflineDale_Gribble
journeyman
Registered: 03/17/02
Posts: 64
Loc: Qu?bec
Last seen: 21 years, 7 months
Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: ]
    #596927 - 04/02/02 06:37 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Anybody can purchase a high times all you need is $5.00

And jlf wasn't only selling by the gr. they also had 1/4 gr. for $135.00 it's not very difficult for a bunch of kids to put all of their money together and purchase a 1/4 gr.

And no I wouldn't wan't my kid to purchase from the streets but that doesn't mean that jlf should have been supplying these chemicals in the first place...

Now it's obvious that I was overexagerating but some of the other people that posted didn't seem to understand everything that happened because of mark...



--------------------
''Guns don't kill people the goverment does.''
''You actually believe they landed on the moon...''

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Anonymous

Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: Dale_Gribble]
    #597063 - 04/02/02 09:15 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

>"And no I wouldn't wan't my kid to purchase from the streets but that doesn't mean that jlf should have been supplying these chemicals in the first place..."<

Well, so Dale, what do you mean? You mean that you support prohibition and scumbags selling unknown shit to kids on a street corner. Let's call a spade a spade.

Leaf

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OfflineDale_Gribble
journeyman
Registered: 03/17/02
Posts: 64
Loc: Qu?bec
Last seen: 21 years, 7 months
Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: ]
    #597258 - 04/03/02 01:38 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Dang mang !


--------------------
''Guns don't kill people the goverment does.''
''You actually believe they landed on the moon...''

Edited by Dale_Gribble (04/06/02 10:54 PM)

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Anonymous

Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: Dale_Gribble]
    #597279 - 04/03/02 02:15 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Still not sure what youre getting at.
youre right,maybe Mark should have required ID.But like you said,any kid can scrape money together to buy these drugs.Any kid can get a high times and find the info.What makes you think any kid cant scan his dads ID?

If you know Mr. T.R. so well youll also know he had many problems with this as well.He received many calls from concerned parents that found products w/ his name on it.

I wonder how those kids got products from Mr. T.R.?


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Anonymous

Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: Dale_Gribble]
    #597482 - 04/03/02 09:53 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Dale

Thanks for the clarification, but I think you?re confused. You state;

>?And no I wouldn't wan't my kid to purchase from the streets but that doesn't mean that jlf should have been supplying these chemicals in the first place...?

Then you state in your next post that you support the other company that checks ID.

Are you a prohib or not? You?re being real wishy washy. I realize that a lot of people recognize the evil of prohibition and refuse to recognize the prohib in themselves. Calling a ?spade a spade? means to see oneself or others for what they are.

Leaf

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OfflineDale_Gribble
journeyman
Registered: 03/17/02
Posts: 64
Loc: Qu?bec
Last seen: 21 years, 7 months
Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: ]
    #598769 - 04/04/02 03:03 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Damn I was being real wishy washy sorry about that I guess I'm a fucking Prohibisionist...Oh well I can live with that...

You are right Mr. T.R. probably got tricked by at least by few young teenagers but it was probably more then enough to discourage most of the others simply because he asked for some ID and yes I'm very aware of the possibility of swiping your mother or your fathers ID and then scaning it it's not very complicated at all of course...Or if you want to you can even modify your own ID and change the age part and even modify your photo by putting some other older persons photo on it nothing is 100% failsafe...But it is still more work then giving JLF a call...

Sorry about all the uneeded drama I like overexagerating some times it makes me feel special.


--------------------
''Guns don't kill people the goverment does.''
''You actually believe they landed on the moon...''

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OfflineRonald12
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/08
Posts: 2
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: MinorThreat405]
    #8813396 - 08/22/08 10:09 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Who knows? I don't think it is going to change. Will always be like this, inactive.

------------------------------------------
Indiana Drug Addiction

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OfflineRonald12
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/08
Posts: 2
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: MinorThreat405]
    #8813412 - 08/22/08 10:12 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Who knows? I don't think it is going to change. Will always be like this, inactive.

------------------------------------------
Indiana Drug Addiction

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Offlinejeep
Stranger

Registered: 07/16/08
Posts: 1,034
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: Ronald12]
    #8813475 - 08/22/08 10:27 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ronald12 said:
Who knows? I don't think it is going to change. Will always be like this, inactive.

------------------------------------------
Indiana Drug Addiction





wow dude. this must be some kinda fucking record. look how old the thread is.  :congrats:

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InvisibleRoadkillM
Retired Shroomery Mod
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 22,674
Loc: Montana
Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: Ronald12]
    #8815076 - 08/23/08 10:30 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

6 years, 4 months ago...

talk about a dead horse!~


Click!~



--------------------
Laterz, Road

Who the hell you callin crazy?
You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson was eating froot loops on your front porch!


Brainiac said:
PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.


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InvisibleRoadkillM
Retired Shroomery Mod
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 22,674
Loc: Montana
Re: Important article - JLF and the DEA/Law problems [Re: Thor]
    #8815078 - 08/23/08 10:31 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

This thread has been closed.

Reason:
moldy oldie

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